Forgotten Kingdoms Forums

Recently I have noticed that polymorphed PC's names still show to those they have greeted. Rather than this being a suggestion on fixing that - which would be good if nothing else - I had a few thoughts while researching some things on FR wikia:

1> Remove "greeting".

I am of the opinion that it should be a PC's responsibility to remember the names of those they have met by recognizing them by appearance alone - like reality - and it would add a bit more realism to the atmosphere. Instead of a PC being able to "look" somewhere and see "So-and-so is very far east of here", they would see the short description which is a bit more normal than being able identify someone miles away on the horizon. This would cause a slight problem with spells that target PC's from afar (teleportation/scrying mostly) which is why a PC would instead be able to use a keywords system:

syntax: keywords <xyz>

This would add an additional keyword to the player besides their adjectives. This would also allow for PC's to utilize aliases while polymorphed or nicknames if they wished. So, if in the same room as a PC, a PC could target them by an adjective, or if the PC is afar, by their name, if known.

For those who have a horrible memory (my own personal curse):

syntax: journal

Allows players a small personal board to post notes to themselves. Kind of like a memory bank, they could use it to record sdesc's of PC's they have met along with the alias/name that the PC goes by, or other things, NPC dialogue for quests that doesn't show up in questlog bits, etc. This would be a virtual board only. The PC would not need a quill or parchment to record something on the board.



2> Remove "who".

The "who" command has always peeved me a little. Since the playerbase is relatively small and most of the "norms of the Deep" know each other, when a PC see's someone who's name doesn't automatically pop up in their vt window, and said PC refuses to give a name, the one asking for a name can simply "who" and deduce who the person is by a very accurate degree most of the time. Instead of being able to "who" and see a list of names of everyone online. It would output something like this:

You sense that there are <#> adventurers nearby. (You could tie this in with the amulet so that without an amulet worn, the "who" command returns nothing at all.) - Could also be tied into nondetection as well, those currently under the affects of an ability or spell that gives nondetection would be harder to "sense" with the who command.

For role playings' sake you would also be able to utilize a second command - notify.

syntax: notify <player> or notify <religion>

This would notify the other player/faith members that you are currently online, so if you have an event or an RP set up, you could use this to inform others that you are around. (Also tied into the amulet.)

3> Remove amulet glow.

It only makes sense to me that an amulet of telepathy would be a discreet way to converse with another while in a crowd. The glow also shows when a PC is invisible which is also kind of a problem. When in a group, you see someones amulet glow, then another person in the same room's amulet glows, you can OOCly determine that they are sharing secrets amongst themselves, and a lot of the time, PC's will respond to the situation as if they absolutely -know- that the previous is the case.

-Reasoning-

I have had a lot of problems with PC's using OOC knowledge - due to code issues - ICly. It has been a lot more often than not lately. I do not know if it is because the players behind the PC's are young, new to role playing, or just unable to separate the two... but it is annoying when someone refuses to be a good sport and play the situation as it unfolds, or by the knowledge that their PC should have.

A lot of these ideas are from the SOI engine, one built specifically for RPI games, and also the engine used for one of the highest rated RP muds around right now. I build for another mud that uses the engine and it's just simply amazing the amount of realism you can get out of it for your games.

I too very much dislike it when people use OOC means to determine IC information, and using a process of elimination with the who list and addressing that person by name is a good example. However, sometimes this is done out of ignorance and not spite. I've had experiences where someone used information on the who list to talk to my character, and a gentle reminder not to do so revealed that they had no idea it wasn't meant to be used in that way.

Generally most players respect another player's choice to greet or not greet. If you believe that someone is using OOC information in an IC manner to get around this then a polite request not to do so may do the trick in the majority of cases. I think your recent experiences with this type of thing may be due to the number of new players that have joined us recently, in which case they probably just need some help with learning how to and how not to use the who list.

I disagree with removing the who list completely, since it can be one of the easy ways for someone to see if a faith manager they need to see or a hopeful is online. It would also make things a lot more difficult for people trying to form a group to adventure.

By the same token, just because you have polymorph doesn't mean you are an exact duplicate of the person you are attempting to impersonate. In D&D, there are bluff checks that occur. Even if you survive those, if anything occurs that would make a character 'disbelieve' you are who you claim to be (or otherwise suspicious for that matter), they begin to get cumulative bonuses against your bluff check in their favor.

"Why are you talking differently?"
"I have a cold."
"What happened to your accent?"
"I've been traveling a lot lately; recently I visited Tantras for a few months. Do I really sound so different?"
"That trip must have really calmed you down. You aren't even fidgeting like you usually do!"
"Oh, it was very relaxing. I think I'll go back again soon."

Etc, etc.

I'm really not sure your requests are fair; It's too much to the benefit of the deceiver. There's no automated system in FK like there is in D&D. Additionally, just because you have seen what the person looks like doesn't mean you can copy their adjectives and description doesn't mean you took the time to be able to even copy the person's physical appearance properly. The character may have scars, moles, and other things currently concealed by armor/clothing.

Realistically, spot check isn't even coded. Much less bluff, or any other associated components that would make these suggestions to be viable (and fair) on FK.

Because of all these things, I think your expectations may be a bit unfair. If there's one thing I've learned, you can't _force_ your roleplay on others. You need to remember this is Forgotten Realms-based. Magic is something that happens all the time. People are a lot more suspicious/cautious of magic in this age than would be in real life medieval times.

Semi-related, I like my who command. I like easily being able to see if someone I've been waiting on for months has finally logged in.

I think the advantages of it would far outweigh the disadvantages. Most of the muds currently using this system (SOI engine) have anywhere from 70-100+ day-to-day players in their player base at peak times, not counting the weekend players. This alone should account for and be a good example of how much more enjoyable "coded enforcement" is. If 100+ players currently use and - for the most part - enjoy it with no problems, why would it be such a difficult change?

As for faith managers, well, from a realistic point of view, a PC shouldn't just automatically know who they are. If a player is devoted and determined enough that their character be initiated into a religion, then they would be patient and do so via the venues that are accessible to them. Ask around, listen to gossip, seek other members of the faith and speak with them, leave a post on the boards that they are interested. There are many other ways than simply having all the information immediately handed to you. Besides, for the situations where it is just impossible for a PC to find out any other way, the helpfiles tell you who the managers are.

More intrigue. I guess that is what it boils down to. Having a system where a PC can be all-knowing OOCly with very little in the way to stop them kind of ruins RP. Even though they may still attempt to RP ICly, some will still react in some way that is not entirely OOC in nature, but casts the entire situation in an unrealistic light. Basically, some people have a hard time losing, therefore, regardless of what is happening they will always center their RP around what they know OOCly and tag on an IC feel to it to RP their PC into "winning" or "not-losing".

It takes a good sport to RP cowering in fear and allowing torture and or capture. Sadly, most PC's look at their opponent, gauge their power by the OOC knowledge they have of the PC's equipment, and then if they think they can win, will proceed to smack-talk about how great they are and how the guy is going to pay, otherwise, if they know they can't win -regardless of race feuds- (i.e. goblin vs. gnome or orc vs. elf) they will just suddenly *walk* away, like its not a problem that they are surrounded by several persons with an intent to kill them.

EDIT: As for polymorph, it is not a "doppelganger spell", you do not have to take the exact appearance of someone/something that already exists. You can create an entirely new person/persona with it. Since it is not an illusion it cannot be "disbelieved" and it is not a bluff. It is a physical alteration of one's body and is in no way related to diplomacy unless it was used to impersonate someone. Simply flagging it as an impersonation only spell and allowing everyone "greeted" by you to automatically know its you just makes deception even more worthless than it already is.

Walking around, never greeting anyone so you can remain completely unknown and have at least a minuscule chance at playing a deceptive character is an alternative, but then again, people will just OOCly find out who you are anyways.

Necalli: I understand where you are coming from but Lirith and Selveem both highlight aspects of the same general need. This game needs to provide some out-of-character tools in order to engender role-play, not to make it unnecessary. The greet system is a convenience for players so that you are not smiling at the wrong one of the four human males in the room (two of which are tall, two of which are strong) simply because it is much simpler and more reasonable than creating this huge database, per character, of keywords. The "Who" list allows you to find other players that you may enjoy playing with (or may need to find) amidst a player base that spans many time zones. The amulet glow was instituted because people were abusing it and having sidebar type conversations right in front of people rather than speaking out loud.

The problems that you are bringing to light are, as Lirith said, easily corrected most times by a polite word to the offending party; they often times do not know the error of their ways. You cannot remove abuse through arbitrary, coded means. People will always find a way around things and so there is no substitute for friendly mentorship and advice between players.

I believe that we do have an influx of younger, less experienced players who probably need some coaching as they are introduced to role-playing. Some of us have been at this kind of thing for years and it is our responsibility to help the younger ones learn the same things that we have learned.

Yes, I do agree that tools need to be in place that allow the set up of RP and events without a lot of hassle, but I still believe there are other ways to do this without having a codex of names available to you. Several MUDs have achieved it and the players of them do not seem hindered by it in the least. I guess I am looking at it from an overall point of view to attract more serious and experienced role players that actually stick around for longer than the time it takes them to realize there is no room for "hardcore" role players. I have played for the coming up on five years that I have because it is my favorite D&D setting, but honestly, if someone were to base an RPI with an ESRB rating of M or AO on Forgotten Realms and used the SOI engine or a similar one, that incorporates commands such as feel and think... I would most likely retire from playing here anymore.

I'm not trying to be hateful or anything like that, I'm just stating what I have seen from the MUDs currently available right now. RPE's are dying out and are being replaced by RPI's. All the oldschool tabletop guys have either become WoW addicts, or are playing MUDs with the aspects I have outlined in my previous posts.

What's a feel or think command do?

Think is a tool for PC's to relay the reasoning behind their PC's actions in any given RP. For example, say an RP was going on and it catches the attention of a DM, but he wasn't around for the underlying RP a few days ago, or the actions do not outright explain themselves, it gives said DM the who's-who of whats going on so that he can get involved with echoes and whatnot if he wanted.

It basically works like this:

syntax: think (feeling) <thought>

So if someone where to type something like: think (irritably) This elf is an idiot, if he tests my patience one more time, he is going to meet the business end of my blade.

It would echo to any DM's observing as this:

a large, dark-skinned male human thinks irritably, "blah blah"

Feel is about the same thing, except it relays only feeling with no thoughts. For example, say a DM tosses an echo into the zone akin to:

A unnerving silence implies that all may not be as it should here. The air is thick with tension.

Then you as the PC would be able to respond with feel, or think, just to let the DM in on the fun and give whoever is playing as DM some info on the motivations behind your RP. It not only lets them be more immersed into what is going on, but it allows them to tailor their responses to correlate with the PC's involved, resulting in more coordinated RP for all involved.

That's part of the fun of being the DM, you engineer the world and the situations and then the PC plays through your creation and you get to experience the reactions and be a part of the action. Take away that and your just some guy throwing monsters at the other guys. :p

I like some of the ideas that Necalli has outlined. Made me think of a couple interesting things.

Specifically, I think it would be great if the who list showed short descriptions instead of names.

If character names were a hidden keyword (or an assignable keyword), it would eliminate most problems of trying to find the correct target for my emotes. I could still grin at Lirith without confusing her with all the other diminutive, sable-haired female in the room.
I seem to recall one MUD I played where there was a remember command. I could type something like 'remember goblin Suk' and everytime I saw that goblin, I would see him as 'Suk'.

Seems to me some of those might be easy little things to remind me to stay in character.

Our small playerbase is not a direct result of us having a who command. Likewise, removing the who command will not give us a sudden influx of players thinking "Oh hey, they removed their who command! Time to give this a try."

Not suddenly overnight, no. Though, I do staff and build for a mud that uses the things I have suggested.

Here's a bit of data:

The Alpha of the game ran over a span of four months and the story arch progressed over five significant events (we termed them chapters) that were the result of what the players did, how they responded, etc. In the span of those four months we had a player base of fifty at peak times with no less than ten at off-peak times. We managed to place in the "Top 10" on both Mudconnect and TMC. The game was only in it's Alpha stage, and we gave both SOI and Armageddon a run for their money, simply because of the things we employed behind the scenes, people not only got instantly hooked, but told their friends, and their friends told their friends.

Don't get me wrong, FK is a good game and I enjoy playing it, which is why I am even suggesting these things. I don't want to see it become stagnant and it become where the only ones that play are the same people that have been behind all the PC's for year after year. It takes new blood to create new life. I have seen a lot more "big" updates these past few months than since 07-08, which is awesome, and I have liked everything implemented so far. But like I said before, to attract new players you have to be on the same level as the competition and give those prospective players a reason to play long term.

I think that you have provided some food for thought, Necalli, and I appreciate you taking the time to contribute your ideas.

RE: feel or think
I do not like the idea of this command at all. My favorite writing professor would drill us, saying, "Show, don't tell." i.e. If a character in your story is angry, don't write something like, "Bob was angry". Instead, write, "The veins on Bob's forehead bulged and his face turned as red as his knuckles turned white". In other words, if people are being expressive in their role-play then I should not have to listen to a command to know that someone is scared or irritated.

What about not only showing, but also telling. Not all thoughts and feelings can be expressed by action alone. Also, it would allow a way to RP without wearing every single emotion on your sleeve.

Say your are a warrior, you are a vain man full of pride and bluster and are not prone to openly expressing your emotions, even in the direst of situations.

Then, the DM fubars your world and you and your party are face to face with an Alhoon. Would the warrior:

a) Outwardly express bravado and fearlessness, but actually be scared out of his wits on the inside. b)Break down and scream in absolute terror.

For a: To the ones with him, he would act like it is nothing, he is calm, collected, and completely unconcerned, but to the DM, "Oh my god, we are all going to die!"

For b: Or, he could just try to cram all that into an emote somehow.

Anguin wrote:I seem to recall one MUD I played where there was a remember command. I could type something like 'remember goblin Suk' and everytime I saw that goblin, I would see him as 'Suk'.

Faerun.com had it (or was it Animemud? or Ensi? it may be that I'm mistaken them...been a long time ago), it was like a greet command but in the other sense, (you were remembering a pc by the name you wished to give him and not by his "code" name)
And it was a pain to debug and a strain for the system once our PB hit the hundred, which had us upgrade the servers (yes it's with a s) running it and costs quite a bit of money...

There's good ideas in what Necalli said, but I think a good compromise can be found between the extreme and the "adequate to our game"

I like the idea of reworking disguise, shapechange and polymorph to be able to really use them for roleplay.

Now, like always, true hardcore roleplayer do not play without a notebook or a piece of paper in front of them taking notes... and do not care the slighest with a "notebook" command, I won't trade my notes for any virtual notebook
And if you're really dedicated, you have list of npc, pc's adjective, description, items usually worn, unique renames in possession, ect.. and you don't need any command for that, adding automated things for that kind of spoil the effort in my eyes. Too much assistance kills the joy of achievement.

But again, I'm an old hardcore fanboy

Brar

PS: Please, tell me I'm not the only one mad enough to do those kind of lists... (I know at least one other who did that..but he doesn't FK play anymore).

Brar wrote:PS: Please, tell me I'm not the only one mad enough to do those kind of lists... (I know at least one other who did that..but he doesn't FK play anymore).

I do. Though I normally, either start a log when something is going down so that I can read over it later and recall any subtleties, Copy/Paste to notepad, or just notepad in general. I can naturally type faster than I can write, even when I shorthand. And sometimes if I short hand something I'll forget what the abbreviation was for in the first place and be lost regardless.

The way we use the journal is not only for the PC to note things, but DM's can also review someones journal to see who they know, what they've been up to, etc.

All three, journal, think, and feel are tools to allow more in depth RP and creates a system to where, if one DM is running an event, but something comes up and he has to be away from the game for a while due to work, sickness, or vacation, etc... another DM can easily take over and finish it out. Most of the time the PC's don't even realize it's a different DM unless we tell them after the fact. This way, RP's don't get dragged out for longer than they need be.

PS: Please, tell me I'm not the only one mad enough to do those kind of lists... (I know at least one other who did that..but he doesn't FK play anymore).

You are flat out crazy. But yeah... I do the same thing. I have a file of the long and short of anyone Everett has ever been greeted by. And YER NOT ON IT, BRAR!

Ok I got bored reading half way through the posts, so forgive me if I am saying something that has already been said.

Necalli... I understand your points, and in some ways I agree with them. However, for different reasons, because we are not a mud where 100+ players are on at a time... we sort of need the who list to start roleplays with other characters. Our environment is huge. Also, our death system is severe... it's not like we can just reappear on earth, and we are in our bodies with all of our stuff... I am using this as the example, because this just happened to me... I went a week irl time dead and without my stuff because I could not contact anyone. Without the who list, this would have been far harder. And for evils we cannot always ask just anyone for help, which really goes for the same for goodies. Also, the faith managers should be known. You're talking about someone who holds a position comparable to the Pope. You know who the pope is... even if you aren't catholic.

So the only option with the who list that might be ok... in my opinion, (but I really like it the way it is... I don't want to see a change, just offering it up to necalli) is only the people you have greeted in RP show up on your who list. But also, faith mangers would as well. Or players in the newbie council. Although, I think correcting these new players who do not understand our roleplay is really all that is needed.

...we are not a mud where 100+ players are on at a time...

*sniff* *sigh* 100+ players would present SO many problems. But ohhhh what good problems to have.

I don't see the suggested commands creating a great demand for players, but I love that we get suggestions.

Death isn't really severe in FK in my opinion. It is sometimes a great inconvenience, but severe is permadeath. Which is what I deal with when I'm not playing here. Once you're dead, it's game over for that PC.

It was just an observation from what other RP muds are doing and the response from the players as well as data from the one I build for. RPI's are hot right now. The traffic on them is becoming insane. For example, Aardmud (one of the most horrible muds I've ever seen was #1 for years and had about 300-400 players online at all times) then an RPI only haven been open for play for about 2-3 months knocked them off the chart.

As far as the problem goes...

I'm with you 100% man. I'd love to log one day and see 100+ players.

Necalli wrote:Death isn't really severe in FK in my opinion. It is sometimes a great inconvenience, but severe is permadeath. Which is what I deal with when I'm not playing here. Once you're dead, it's game over for that PC.

I know this is off topic, but you opened the door:

I'd disagree with you a lot here. You may not understand it as a wizard because wizards are powerful no matter what, but try losing your entire suit of enchanted armors and weapons as a fighter and the difference is utterly painful. Most items on FK you get one crack at getting. A death like this is especially painful if you're one who has already done most of the quests because then you've no chance of getting the armors that would help you so very much. If you're lucky, some kind soul sold theirs and you happened to find it, but that's going to be exceptionally few and far between.

As someone who's lost everything their characters owned on multiple characters back in the days when the MUD crashed often, I know this loss and can speak to it.