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Yeah, I'm sure at least a couple of people are going to look at this post and say "oh, you're THAT character." Yeah, that's me. The person who was actually roleplaying dissent against the 'weapons in the market' law. Let me preface this by saying that there is a point to all that. I consider this a mutually IC/OOC issue and was attempting to have it changed in an IC fashion. I was told it would probably be more effective to do it on the forums, so here we are.

First: I don't have a real problem with this law. It makes a certain amount of IC sense, and I can take it or leave it. No need to take it off the books. However, accepting it as a real part of life in Waterdeep, let me show you how this comes across to a new player.

1. Serra's a citizen of Waterdeep, but from an outlying community. New to the actual city, she finds herself tired, decides to take a short nap in the shade. Guard is present, makes it very clear that vagrancy is against the law and you'll go to jail if you dont' find a tavern for that. Well, okay, that's the law. Nice and straightforward.
2. After outfitting herself, wanders through the city, finds a likely place to meet other players, a fountain. There is a guard here and he appears to advise that if there's any cleaving to do, he can do it. No weapon needed. No mention of the law. Serra finds this approach a bad idea, and declines to take what appears to be advice. After all, why would a law only be enforced in a very small section of marketplace?
3. A couple players with no actual authority tell her this is the law. When confronted, one of them doesn't actually know for sure it's the law, and the other sticks to their guns. Serra ignores it and keeps on keeping on. Because really, if this is a major issue, the guards will report it or something, right? She's been doing this for a week ICly, her player has noted over the course of two days quite a few other players with weapons as well. Can't be a law if nobody's taking it seriously.
4. Serra keeps on (player decision to force the issue - either nobody cares, and it's not actually a law or someone should fix this) Finally an actual captain of the watch (PC) shows up to explain that yes, it really is a law.
5. A couple of hours of roleplay and some helpful OOC information later, the player (me) comes to the following conclusion:

Personally, I'm just inclined to suggest that a weak law be removed, but it seems to be a long-time and accepted part of the environment, and cosmetic changes are simpler:

First: The guards need to inform the player that this is a law. There's no reason a captain of the watch and a lord of waterdeep should be put in the position of rationalizing weak design just because their hired guards weren't straightforward enough to make the law clear. I'll point out that from this perspective it's a really -odd- law. I've only seen one other mud where this was done, and done very badly.

This is a matter of simply changing the guard's script to be like the "wake up" script. Cosmetic.

Second: Send out an auto-tell regarding repeat offenders. Guards may not have to enforce this, but there's no reason it should be an option for players to pick and choose who they want to have the "law" enforced against. Make it automatic. Flaunt the law, and someone's going to show up to arrest you.

.fin

serra wrote: First: The guards need to inform the player that this is a law. There's no reason a captain of the watch and a lord of waterdeep should be put in the position of rationalizing weak design just because their hired guards weren't straightforward enough to make the law clear. I'll point out that from this perspective it's a really -odd- law. I've only seen one other mud where this was done, and done very badly.

This is a matter of simply changing the guard's script to be like the "wake up" script. Cosmetic.

Second: Send out an auto-tell regarding repeat offenders. Guards may not have to enforce this, but there's no reason it should be an option for players to pick and choose who they want to have the "law" enforced against. Make it automatic. Flaunt the law, and someone's going to show up to arrest you.

Hello Serra,

From what I had seen, and pardon me if I am wrong, but your character had said that if it were against the law, then you would be thrown in jail. I am all for the guard throwing people in jail for violating this law. It is a law and must be obeyed. Heck, sometimes I wish the laws were a bit more strict, but that's just me and my quirks.

Unfortunately, there is only so much an NPC can do, which is why we have players who uphold the law and carry out punishment. I'm not saying it's impossible for the guard to keep tabs on people and then throw you in the dungeon, but sometimes people forget.

I am personally thankful for the reminder that my weapon needs to be put away. And yes, if I was armed every time I came into the Market, I would expect consequences.

In your first point I have quoted from you, yes, I think the guard should mention that it is a -law- and -must be obeyed-. I have seen a number of people over the years who did not understand it was a law.

In your second point, I don't think an auto-tell would help very much at all. In fact, it would clog the already overly used tell system that shows up on an Imm's screen. Or, if you're trying to get an Imm's attention, that's a great idea, but I'm sure they have better things to do than break up a squabble about simply putting your weapon away in a busy market place.

Anyone else want to add to this?

I just want to echo Lysha's sentiments that, really, this is not a big deal either ICly or OOCly, sort of like the FK equivelant of jaywalking. There are certainly much more important issues that demand priority and while it's perfectly reasonable to report these minor issues regardless, going on for hours to the IC lords and guardians of Waterdeep, other players like yourself who aren't empowered to make changes like this, is pretty excessive and unnecessary.

A minor point to consider. The market square is not a small part of the market. It, in fact, represents the hub of Waterdeep's market. A rather large space, that I have always pictured closed to the size of a large flea market or farmer's market. Please do not confuse one room, with one mob, as a small space. It is more like dozens of merchant stalls, stands, vendors, hawkers, guards, and various other market place wanders condensed down, due to code and space limitations, into one room and one guard mob.

3. A couple players with no actual authority tell her this is the law. When confronted, one of them doesn't actually know for sure it's the law, and the other sticks to their guns. Serra ignores it and keeps on keeping on. Because really, if this is a major issue, the guards will report it or something, right? She's been doing this for a week ICly, her player has noted over the course of two days quite a few other players with weapons as well. Can't be a law if nobody's taking it seriously.

The people with actual authority to press the rule may actually taking into consideration that you are a new player and that your character might still be getting used to the rules in the market. Which does not necessarily last forever but is there to give time and consideration to the matter at hand. Eventually it reaches a stopping point that is decided based on the ic situation. Its safe to assume that if something has been coded to be followed, it should be followed, even if its not coded to follow through. Just because you can, does not mean you should. But situation by situation varies and how it its approached is often based on the persons involved. Some react differently and so forth. I see a player that is new and reading through the helpfile guide so I tend to let them lie until they're fully ready. That's just me.

I want to underscore what Gwain just said, and perhaps amplify it officially:

There are many things that the code allows you to do that you should not do - bringing a horse up a tree, for example. Stick to what makes IC (in-character) sense.

There are many things that the code allows you to do that your character may choose to do - but should be prepared for the IC consequences thereof. This is a fine example of that. The guard is coded to ask you nicely to put your weapon away. Other PCs tried to explain why. If your PC chooses to ignore that, our environment encourages each of them to respond as they would ICly...including Gwain's reaction, as a Watchman. It may not match that of other Watchmen.

The suggestion to post the laws is a good one, something on a too-long to-do list!

Nysan wrote:A minor point to consider. The market square is not a small part of the market.

The "market square" room, as populated as it may be with stalls of various hawkers, represents at best 1/6th of the market district, which would be the rooms surrounding it. If the descriptions are to be believed, they're as much part of the market as the square itself. (yes, I actually do read room descriptions!). That's a major part of why this makes no sense. It's a law in only one part of the market? Hub or not, that's exceptionally inconsistent if I'm taking it from the common sense approach Raona suggests and that I typically use when exploring new games.

Gwain wrote:Its safe to assume that if something has been coded to be followed, it should be followed, even if its not coded to follow through.

I have no problem with that approach, if it's consistently applied. The problem is that it is not. If the guards are all taking the heavy handed approach, that's one way. If they're being polite and beating around the bush, that's another way of handling things. But when they're doing both, it breeds confusion. I'm talking about applied consistency in NPC actions here.

Raona wrote:If your PC chooses to ignore that, our environment encourages each of them to respond as they would ICly.

There's an authority issue here, and quite frankly, having players with zero authority enforcing the law or attempting to is beyond inconsistent and ridiculous. More importantly, as I've stated in roleplay, it breeds abuse, both ICly and OOCly. What business do civilians have telling people what the law is? Why aren't the guards doing that? Why isn't it being enforced evenly? Is it because the PCs doing the reporting are friends with the people breaking the law and looking the other way or they can only be bothered some of the time? Is that even remotely fair? Why on earth would an intelligent council such as the Lords of Waterdeep tolerate such a terrible system of enforcement? These aren't political simpletons, they're lords of one of the most successful cities in the kingdoms. Jaywalking gets treated as a joke in real life, and because of that, people get hurt. It gets ignored because it's inconvenient to officers and politicians.

Those are the kind of questions to be asking when you talk about doing stuff that "makes sense". It's applied reality.

A posting of the laws would be good, as long as there's directions to it, but really, issuing the less obvious stuff like the Market Square Law through NPCs that are there to enforce them makes far more sense.

serra wrote: There's an authority issue here, and quite frankly, having players with zero authority enforcing the law or attempting to is beyond inconsistent and ridiculous. What business do civilians have telling people what the law is?

It's called being a good samaritan, and if someone's breaking the law in real life, I'm going to point it out to them, even if I don't have authority. It's better to make sure someone knows they're breaking the rules than neglect them and letting them get in trouble.

serra wrote: Why aren't the guards doing that? Why isn't it being enforced evenly? Is it because the PCs doing the reporting are friends with the people breaking the law and looking the other way or they can only be bothered some of the time? Is that even remotely fair? Why on earth would an intelligent council such as the Lords of Waterdeep tolerate such a terrible system of enforcement? These aren't political simpletons, they're lords of one of the most successful cities in the kingdoms. Jaywalking gets treated as a joke in real life, and because of that, people get hurt. It gets ignored because it's inconvenient to officers and politicians.

Those are the kind of questions to be asking when you talk about doing stuff that "makes sense". It's applied reality.

Jaywalking, okay. Go to Austin, Texas and jaywalk, and you're going to get a ticket of at least $75. It's no joke. It's called ignoring the traffic -laws-. Not everyone blows off tiny laws.

I also want to stress something that some people seem to forget. This is a -game-. Laws and punishment aren't going to be perfect. This is fantasy, role play, a game. As I said, there is a limit to how much an NPC can do. After it's all said and done, it's only script, only code. There's no one behind the screen who logs hours as the guard and enforces everything perfectly. That's why PCs step in and try to teach new people the laws and rules.

Being told to put your weapon away by an officer of the law is like being told not to drink and drive. I don't have to tell you it's against the law, because you know it is. We've been taught in school that it's against the law. An animated Scruff McGruff can't explain everything to you because he's animated and can only say what he's been "programed" to do, much like the guard.

As for not knowing the laws, imagine you're going into another country. If the citizens of the country are telling you something is against the law, it's generally a good idea to take heed in their words rather than ignore them and blow them off rudely.

Its important to remember that player characters with no authority to enforce will usually not force you to sheath your weapons. Rather they will ask or tell you to do so then leave it at that or report you to someone that has the authority to enforce the law. Otherwise they can't make you do it icly they do not have the right to do it. However, they do have the right to report you to someone that can exercise the law and deal with you if it is deemed necessary. It depends where you are and who has authority in that place and in the end, it depends on what you are doing.

And I would also like to point out that I do doubt that this is being done oocly. The rule is wholly based on ic interactions and has no grounding in ooc etiquette. In other words, not sheathing your weapon in the market results in an ic response when warranted based on situation, not an ooc response or punishment. If someone is reporting or harassing you based on ooc situation I implore you to report it to the complaints forum.

I do think a good point was raised, though.

Wouldn't it be logical to have a listing of local laws posted for easy reference somewhere? Preferably somewhere new characters can easily find it.

Noteboards are not good for this, because most new players will not initially read through 40 posts.

Anguin wrote:I do think a good point was raised, though.

Wouldn't it be logical to have a listing of local laws posted for easy reference somewhere? Preferably somewhere new characters can easily find it.

This was suggested ICly, and even got as far as started on OOCly, in the past...but it stopped short because ostensibly the Laws were going to change imminently. That hasn't happened, so bringing it to fruition is overdue. I think I even know a good way to do it, so I will get on it today; it should make it easy to change the content, the same approach we use for the news. The Lords Council already approved posting the laws, ICly, some time ago, so unless a current Lord or the top brass bids me to not proceed, a posting of the Waterdeep Laws at each gate and the Market Square should be in place shortly.

The law makes no sense in character. It ultimately doesn't matter at all, and seems to be entirely OOC motivated in it's implementation. This is the case for many things in a mud where things as important as a "game master" are unable to be present at all times.

The mentality of always staying in character no matter what, is nice...but not entirely all the way there to a fully matured viewpoint in playing. I'm with you 100%. In character the law is without any real meat to it's reasoning. With something like this, come into the discussion with the understanding that there is a very good chance the rule was put into place nearly a decade ago and has never been changed because it doesn't really matter.

Take a look at the "no quitting" rule in MS Central - entirely ooc for excessive text reasons. I imagine this rule was put into place because of a scenario like this.

5-10 people in MS Central. 1 PC looking for confrontation and wanders into MS Central. Roleplays inappropriately being a total badass knowing the PC's he's confronting are much lower character. If this was really Waterdeep and not a mud, this sort of behavior wouldn't be tolerated long and the PC would be arrested for whatever the watch wants.

The administration then implements this rule because the player, ultimately a good player or not, at that time was being a problem player and diminishing the fun of other players for his/her own enjoyment. Since Waterdeep is new player friendly, it is often seen as a place where mechanical or rp bullying/"roleplaying" should be an area of focus by the staff. I agree with them on this point.

I agree with you the law is dumb in character. However, please try to look at the game from a distance that takes in to account things that include more than my character's personal roleplay. Knowing that it's purpose is more OOC than IC, just ignore the paradox It'll lower your blood pressure.

Kallias wrote: The mentality of always staying in character no matter what, is nice...but not entirely all the way there to a fully matured viewpoint in playing. I'm with you 100%. In character the law is without any real meat to it's reasoning. With something like this, come into the discussion with the understanding that there is a very good chance the rule was put into place nearly a decade ago and has never been changed because it doesn't really matter.

You're half right half wrong.
The no weapon in the heart of the MS rule was indeed implemented as one of the first rule created by the newly born City Watch almost a decade ago after a roleplay witha warrior emptying weapons on the floor to show off and a few dismemberment, dead children and other niceties.... after that incident, this law was made in application and enforced by the city watch.

It was an IC consequence to an IC happening and a funny roleplay that took place.

Rarely such laws has ever been put in the game without an IC reason, it is not because you don't know the histoiry behind it that it is non existant.

A lot of the changes in areas has been done over the years following RP initiated by PC or Imms. Assuming that changes was simply put in the game for OOC sakes is having little respect and consideration for the work of those that RPed it out and made it happen.

For me, such laws make sense because it's the ruler of the city that decided it, then so be it, if you don't like it go to another city.

And also, such little things are a part of our history, that's what makes FK specials and reminds of good old memories.

Brar

It's an OOC reasoning because that's where PC's hang out, less than a fraction of 1% of the population. Through a character's eyes the law makes no sense - as Serra pointed out, that grid square holds no IC importance or perceived boundaries outside the games mechanics. The point still being OOC needs trump IC immersion.

It is pretty neat hearing why it was created though.

It is a market square, that's valid enough reason to forbids having weapon draws there and the actual law is(was?) about the entire Square, not just this room, but you can't go putting mobs in every room without deterring the fun, that's a code limitation that should be easily enough to override with player good sense no?

The problem is that almost know ones know the laws,having them posting would clear it and make it easier for everyone.

The actual incident that happened was 1 room south than the central room actually

Weak and illogical law? I think that if I walk around my local wal-mart with a shotgun I'll be arrested. Faerun is not SO different from earth in this sense, is it? I mean, there's a veritable butt-ton of logical reasons I would make a law against walking around market square with a greatsword in your hand, had I the authority. Why is the law so weak and dumb, to you guys?

Starting today Iowa's open carry is implemented! Even in bars! WoooOOooooOo! *fires handgun into the air*

But seriously, it's totally different. In that same market merchants would be selling the exact same weapons you're technically not allowed to hold. Making it impossible to exactly examine the items you're purchasing before buying them.

Tools were facts of life. Many of which, "peasant" weapons, had entirely different utilitarian purposes all together. I promise you, that you could walk into wal-mart with an axe and no one would care.

It's important to separate modern philosophical views on the laws role in society when looking at a society based roughly around the middle ages.

An axe isn't really a commonly used tool of murder in this year of 2011, though. Not nearly so dangerous in the public eye as it must have been in these dark ages. What practical use does a sword have, but killing? Sword or gun or axe or fork(jk), I think lawmen would be intolerant of anyone carrying a potential threat in hand when it could easily be sheathed, without any trouble to the weapon carrier. Refusal or disregard to do this trivial service to your fellow squaregoer seems to me suspicious at the least.

Kallias wrote:But seriously, it's totally different. In that same market merchants would be selling the exact same weapons you're technically not allowed to hold. Making it impossible to exactly examine the items you're purchasing before buying them.

There's a difference in examining a weapon and purchasing them, and blatantly brandishing your broadsword in a busy market for no good reason other than the code allows it and you feel like being a rebel and disregarding the law.

I'll say this, yes, I agree the guard should mention that -it is the law- and there is no wiggle room. The law is the law and it must be followed if you want to be in the city. You don't like it? Fine, pack your stuff and leave. It's that simple.

As for no weapons in the Market as a whole, why don't we go as far as to say no weapons are to be wielded within the city other than designated areas? I.E. Brian's where weapons are forged, the Fields of Triumph, the Font, the Sewers, the City of the Dead's graveyard, Tombs of Tempus, and wherever else KILLING something isn't unlawful. I think this will cut down on the instances where someone goes "Boohoo, a civilian started to hit me as I killed a rat, now I'm in jail. I am teh sadz."

Is it realistic considering the times? Depends on how strict the city in question is. Honestly, if you ask me (which you probably aren't), there is no need for a weapon to be out anyway. No one is going to attack you in the city except for some of the areas I had mentioned above. But, alas, I'm straying from the original topic, I believe.

There is no need to break this EASILY followed law. Arguing against it is pointless and a waste of time. It takes less effort to sheath the weapon than it does to go on a long tangent about why it's not fair. It saves you time, it saves everyone else's time, and then we can all go along on our merry little way.

Personally I feel that the guard should tell someone to sheathe, and if after 20 seconds (I'm being generous here) they've not done it, they get hauled off for 5 irl minutes of sullen time-out in the waterdeep jail.