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The unfaithed/uncoded spell list is (slightly) better for priests than it used to be, but it's still very difficult, especially for one following an uncoded deity.

I'm fine without having level 7-9 spells and limited amounts of level 5-6 spells. However, most, if not, level 1-3 spells should be available to all priests.

It is exceptionally difficult to play a priest without many of these spells. The ones that really need to be added are:

• Bless
  Comprehend Languages
  All detect spells
  Divine Favor
  Shield of Faith
  Sanctuary
  Protection
  All cause spells (No spontaneous casting for evil casters!)
  Magic Weapon
  Cure Blindness
  Revive
  Speak With Dead (Really? We can raise dead but we can't use speak with dead?)
  Cure Moderate moved to 2nd (it's a 3rd level spell for unfaithed)

This spell list is a bit of a mess, if you ask me. I don't see why there are any restrictions for the first three levels, but even just adding the spells above will make being an unfaithed/uncoded priest actually enjoyable.

3.5 rules also state that all clerics are proficient in all armor (3 ranks of armor prof).

Also, in support of my above post:

d20srd.org wrote:If a cleric is not devoted to a particular deity, he still selects two domains to represent his spiritual inclinations and abilities. The restriction on alignment domains still applies.

I'm not saying they should get domains, but it supports that non-specifc priests still get full spell power.

You know the problem.

I think in order to fix it we need a "Nonspecific" deity with no domains attached to him (if that's possible). They would only be set by staff (and maybe RP council?) per current rules?

Agreed on the spell list bit.

I think the spell failure vs. armor for priests should be revisited. I think it should be based on weight and armor type. For example, half-plate and full plate add failure chance no matter what, but medium and below should give no failure unless the weight exceeds a given amount. So, say you were wearing a full suit of chain, you would - maybe - get a chance of spell failure depending on the weight of the suit, same with plain and studded leather.

Same thing with wizards, kind of. I hate how wearing a pair of leather boots gives a wizard 10% failure, mostly because the armor is so insignificant that it's ridiculous and the fact that almost all leather boots are considered armor.

The vast majority of the things that you've described (on second glance, I think it's all of them) are missing from unfaithed/uncoded priests because not all priests become clerics. Some become druids, and druids are missing those spells. The same goes for lacking heavy armor proficiency and getting Cure Moderate, Serious, and Critical one spell level later than clerics.

Like other unguilded classes, unfaithed/uncoded priests essentially get the worst possible combination of abilities from each of their possible guild choices. It sucks, but it could be seen as some very real motivation to devote to a patron deity. As a priest, you need a patron deity to reach your true potential.

Now, you're totally right about clerics without patrons getting their full abilities in D&D. They can devote themselves to an alignment, an ideal, an abstract concept, etc. You can even get divine spells by being a full-blown athiest. Seriously! But Forgotten Realms is very different in that respect. I don't want to copy and paste the whole thing for copyright reasons, but look at this...

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting wrote:Faerunian clerics function as described in the Player's Handbook, except that no clerics serve just a cause, philosophy, or abstract source of divine power. The Torilian deities are very real, and events in recent history have forced these divine beings to pay a great deal of attention to their mortal followers.

It goes on to say that it is impossible for clerics to get any divine power without choosing a patron. Druids get a similar deal; no worshipping just plain ole nature. If you don't worship a patron deity, you can't be a cleric or druid in canon Realms. It's one of those little things that makes the Forgotten Realms different from most settings. Fortunately, that's not quite the case herein FK, or else getting started as a priest would be nigh impossible.

I think it's done the way it is right now mostly to simplify the guilding process. If you trained those cleric-only spells as a priest, you would end up losing all of them if you become a druid. Rangers have a situation like that right now since they lose Medium Armor Proficiency when they transition from Warrior to Ranger.

I also feel like players aren't really supposed to be in the priest class long enough for its limitations to hinder them too much, and I'm saying that as someone with several priests with access to high Spell Levels but no high-level spells to learn. Successfully getting faithed will always be the exception to the rule for me, unfortunately. :-\

Priests of uncoded deities, on the other hand, really need something to make them semi-competant. I've heard it suggested many times that uncoded priests should get their own "guild" to give them full cleric spell access, but without the domain spells. I still think that one's a great idea!

Rhangalas wrote:I think the spell failure vs. armor for priests should be revisited.

Divine casters aren't supposed to be getting any spell failure at all. I mean, it'll show up on your score sheet still, but it shouldn't be affecting you at all. Is that happening now?

So, new deity called "Placeholder", master of all things holding places? No domain spells, no supplicated abilities, and slightly fleshed out spell list?

Nysan wrote:So, new deity called "Placeholder", master of all things holding places? No domain spells, no supplicated abilities, and slightly fleshed out spell list?

Or just "Uncoded," but yeah, exactly. That'd be fantastic. It would make uncoded priests playable while still keeping them weak enough to discourage uncoded deity worship over coded deities.

I'm not entirely sure if the failure is affecting the use of prayers or not, but the failure percentage does show up on the character sheet when wearing any type of armor, so I'm assuming it does.

Rhangalas wrote:I'm not entirely sure if the failure is affecting the use of prayers or not, but the failure percentage does show up on the character sheet when wearing any type of armor, so I'm assuming it does.

Spell failure really only affects arcane casters. Actually, its full name is "Arcane Spell Failure." You can find it here if you scroll down a bit. Divine casters, with their much simpler somatic components, are not affected by it. That percent will still show up on the SCORE sheet, but unless you see "Your armour prevents you from casting succesfully," you're not getting any spell failure.

It also explains that it is arcane spells only if you check "help spell failure".

If following a deity is so important to priests in FR/FK, can I suggest that it becomes part of their character creation process?

Suggestion:
1. When a character chooses to be a priest, he is told in the character creation process that he can choose a patron deity when he reaches level 9. (Of course, if someone manages to get himself faithed before level 9 by the usual way, no one is going to stop him.)
2. Create a special area to faith these priests. Entrance is linked to the starting temples/areas, but entrance is limited only to priests of level 9 and above (which limits it to level 9 anyway, since those of level 10 and above are not allowed into the starting temples/areas).
3. In this special area, the priests can go from room to room to learn about the different deities available (maybe a mob in each room that tells him about the related deity, using info from the help files). If he is interested to join a faith, he can do so by saying "join Mielikki" (for example) and the mob will faith him and give him a symbol.
4. If a priest progresses to level 10 and beyond without being faithed, he can still follow a deity but will have to do it the usual way (seeking out the appropriate members of the faith, etc.)

Wait... Is there some issue with the current faithing process that I missed? I was under the impression that the current system is fine, with a few special considerations for drow and 'special RP' situations.

I thought this thread addressed priests that decided to follow and uncoded deity, such as Istishia, who wished to have more spells at their disposal... which I feel is a reasonable suggestion. Am I confused again?

Also agree with the faith issue. Some coded deities have no followers whatsoever, simply because the "faith manager" is hardly ever around. Given the small player base, getting a priest into a faith is almost as horrible as specializing with a wizard.

Suggestion: Either automate it by creating temple quests or - much better in my opinion - allow the player to choose at creation akin to rolling a priest in tabletop AD&D. In the future, if other divine portfolios were added that deities share or are unique, then the player would be able to choose which two portfolios they wish to receive domain prayers from, allowing more diversity with priests. I'd like to see the same thing with wizards being able to choose which schools they wish to bar themselves from, but given the way spells are in FK, it might result in overpower...

In summary, I'm getting this vibe that all specialists of the same school are pretty much the same, as well as priests of the same faith. You all know the same spells more or less and most players in-the-know about how the spells/prayers function tend to use the same exact selection of spells. It might have a little to do with availability vs. component costs, though I'd still like to see some different tactics for a change.

If a cleric of so-and-so was discovered to be abusing the selection at creation via poor RP or just absolutely not following the tenants of said faith, then the deity could alert the faith manager via divine communication and said manager could seek them out for punishment and/or the deity could just excommunicate them from the faith, based on the offense.

Rhangalas wrote:Also agree with the faith issue. Some coded deities have no followers whatsoever, simply because the "faith manager" is hardly ever around. Given the small player base, getting a priest into a faith is almost as horrible as specializing with a wizard.

This just isn't true. All faiths have followers, some people choose not to log them or have stopped playing for whatever reason. And it isn't necessary for there to be a faith manager in order to get faithed, if you play your character regularly and pray once to a deity, someone will get to it.

On topic, I would have no objection to priests of uncoded deities being given access to a few more prayers particularly those in the lower levels.

Priests of uncoded deities are most often assigned a similar faith and just given a different holy symbol. If you wanted to follow Red Knight, for example, you would probably be placed in Tempus's church, given a different holy symbol, and told not to use the supplicated items.

Is this about priests of uncoded deities (with which I do not believe there is an issue) or the spells given to priests who are clerics of a certain Power?

My original point was for priests of uncoded deities (I have one that isn't set to a similar deity) or unfaithed priests (which are inherently the same thing). They are incredibly powerless other than a few cure spells.

The policy for priests of uncoded deities has perhaps evolved since you made yours; I recommend that you apply (but am not promising you a resolution with which you are content, to be clear).

Harroghty wrote:The policy for priests of uncoded deities has perhaps evolved since you made yours; I recommend that you apply (but am not promising you a resolution with which you are content, to be clear).

Too late. I expect you to give me what I want, when I want, and to the extent that I want it.

Get used to disappointment. (See here around 1:00.)

Rhangalas wrote:Also agree with the faith issue. Some coded deities have no followers whatsoever, simply because the "faith manager" is hardly ever around.

Quite the claim, one I hope is backed by personal experience and not just assumptions. Not to say that some faiths are less populated that others, they are. I'm more of a mind that it is people's desire to play X religion, rather than Y religion... rarely does it have anything to do with a faith manager. Some faiths just aren't as popular as others, much like some races are less popular.

That said, as Lirith mentioned, even if a FM is less than frequently online there are options at hand to a hopeful faithful, with fairly quick response time.

More to the original topic, yeah the 'unofficially tag them to a similar faith' has worked rather well in recent years for non-coded priests. An improvement over 'unfaithness', with very few bumps in the road. I personally see no issue with unfaithed (young) priests being spell-limited as they are. Much like wizards, but through different methods, their spell list expands drastically after they undergo the usual progression path (faith/guild). In my experience, how quickly the priest in question goes from 'generic symbol' Sam to "faithed" Fred is heavily influenced by their own pace in RPing their faithful habits like meeting people, learning about their faith IC, contacting their FM (or OOC methods), and completing faith tasks in a timely manner. Not all delays are because someone isn't online enough. Just a thought.