Forgotten Kingdoms Forums

Hi! I'd like to take a little time to talk about rogues and class balance in general. Lately I have seen a number of threads pop up about why certain game features are balanced and not balanced, and in every one of these threads there is a small, unspoken understanding that thieves are currently not worth investing the time in from a mechanical basis. Understanding that as a community, we have move forward to marry our mechanical game to our roleplay, is important in understanding why rogues feel left out. Lots of characters can do what they need to do in flavor; they still survive in the wee hours, when their friends and loved ones are otherwise engaged. They grind, they quest, they do what have to do to get by without aid. For thieves, a class that is characterized by clandestine plots and works, the flavor is isolating enough. They are alone most of the time they exist; shunned by everyone, necessary to no one, etc. etc. It makes it even more unbearable that they can't get by on their own--so you have a plight. A rich, thick class that is utterly unplayed. But why can't thieves do what they need to on their own, you're wondering? I'll explain and suggest a few minor tweaks that may help.

Thieves are a class lacking a few things that other classes have. For one, they are extremely squishy targets. This is understandable, and not something anyone should seek to change. They need to rely on stealth and moving around to succeed. This would be a fair trade off if they could maximize their damage; fighters are sturdy enough because they can mow through things before their con takes the hit. Wizards can prepare defenses to do the same. A cleric, for his lack of damage and major defenses, can heal himself. A thief, however, would need considerably more damage to take down a target before being shredded to pieces--and that is precisely how thieves are designed, both in and out of a party setting, for d20 standards. They trade their battlefield utility for massive burst damage. A thief who catches a foe off guard (by flanking or just flat-footed surprise) is supposed to get his full round of attacks (main hand, off hand, AoO) as sneak attack damage. At level 20, this damage is 10d6 per attacks--giving him up to 40d6 off of his main attacks alone when dual wielding. He is not a character to be trifled with if conditions favor him. Conditions don't always favor him, though--hiding in combat is near impossible, and great lengths must go to obtain flat-footed surprise outside of initial rounds. This balances the effort a thief must put in to be a combat threat when combined with other factors; a thief cannot sneak attack a target with any concealment whatsoever, magical or plain, without investing heavily in feats.

Thieves in FK are a class stretched thin. To obtain any significant damage, they must invest in strength. To obtain any significant defences, they must invest heavily in constitution and dexterity. To use their skills effectively, they must invest heavily in intelligence and wisdom, and even charisma. There is no dump stat that other classes have, and there is no trade-off for their investments. It results in a frustrating mess that can be solved simply by adjusting the way sneak attacks are considered in game. This class feature should be reworked; tie circle stab and backstab together into one skill that progresses similarly to 1st--5th attack. The damage should scale half through levelling the skill and half by level, similar to most wizard spells.

This change would alleviate a ton of problems; the thief class would still take gambles, and still have problems with longevity. These are inherent and tolerable traits. They would have a stat that was worth having at times (str for carryweight, jumping, swimming, non-sneak attacks) but not as important as to make it a crutch--but there would need to be other balances made. Implementing counters to sneak attacks (concealment counters for invis/greater invis on the thief himself, concealment on targets considered [though I don't think it exists atm]) would be important, and so would affecting the class's already existing skills. Removing the ability to perform some actions in combat might help (no sneaking/hiding with the "adrenaline" tag comes to mind). All in all, though, I think it would make for a more mechanically and RP-mindedly enjoyable class.

The TL;DR Version:

Adjust Sneak Attack To:
Fire on all applicable attacks.*
Scale with one skill by level and proficiency.
Not work on concealed, undead, mechanical, etc. targets.

Adjust Hide/Sneak To:
Not function while adrenalized.

End result, Thieves aren't so busted:
With new items in game, including dex, deflection, shield, and natural defences, I think thieves would be just fine with their proper damage applied to them. They're never going to be the best toe-to-toe combatants, but bringing their party damage and utility (though this one is present, quests have to be written with thief alternatives) on par will put them in a far more enjoyable and playable state.

Edited to include:
I did some research for this. It can be found by googling "All About Sneak Attacks" and comes in 4 parts from the Wizards' 3.5 DND Archives. I had links, but they stopped me from posting.

*Applicable attacks are discussed in detail. The idea is that thieves -always- succeed in firing this skill when appropriate, but the damage (and chance to hit) scales appropriately with level/skill in the attack (and their actual BAB/+hit bonus).

While I agree, fully, with the sentiment, I don't think that removing the ability to sneak and hide while adrenalized is any sort of solution. The ability to run, hide, and creep away is the only thing that has kept my thief alive as long as it has. To make matters worse, this new combat engagement system (the full details of which I have been unable to find, so I can only speculate based on my understanding) removes ANY ability to sneak attack, due to an emote being given which someone can simply move to avoid.

I have a thief with 330 hours invested, and I have just submitted a request to have him deleted. This new change completely counteracts any, little, ability that thieves had in PvP. PvE has been a challenge, but nothing insurmountable. I've learned tricks to manage to get by.

I agree that thieves need better sneak attach mechanics. As Hrosskell voiced, the burst damage mechanic is what gives thieves their oomph, their balance. Take away that, and thieves are just fighters with 2 less attacks, and crappier armor, that can't even use shields or a wide selection of the available weapons without taking feats.

If this change is to remain, I would say that an attack from hiding or invisibility should not give such an echo. The delay is one thing (though it still makes things much harder on thieves, because it means that if someone is chasing them around Swordpoint Hall, the thief can't simply hide in a side room and backstab the person when they come in, because the person will just walk out again. For other reasons, as well), but the echo totally unbalances. Perhaps give a spot check for the echo, or something, (or listen for invis), but otherwise, it completely ruins the class, and they may as well be taken out completely.

Thank you Hrosskell for voicing this in a manner that is much milder than I would have been able to at this time. I know that 300+ hours to a lot of players might not seem like much, but it has been my main investiture during my time on this MUD, and this change has me prepared to quit entirely.

Another question, on this line, or perhaps a point to make...

Do speeds come into play here, beyond the speed setting? In tabletop, the speed adjustment for someone in medium or heavy armor is 20f/rd, as opposed to 30f/rd for light and unarmored people. In addition (from http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm )

When running in heavy armor, you move only triple your speed, not quadruple.

This goes back to what Hross was saying about maneuverability. It seems that as it stands, a fighter or cleric with the run feat in full plate can keep up with a thief having same. This seems not only contrary to core-rules, but extremely counter-intuitive. Would it be possible to either -dramatically- increase stamina while moving at high speeds (to accommodate for the fact that warriors seem to have a huge amount anyway) in medium or heavy armor, or to limit those armor types to jog?

I'm going to be honest here, Tarven, and say that I think you're a bit off base in understanding how sneak attacks are supposed to perform. In the d20 model we're working from (read those articles I suggested for a more detailed explanation) being concealed isn't even a necessity. The initiative mechanic implemented should give thieves a full round of sneak attacks if they win the roll because the enemy is flatfooted; it is a roll they are designed to win due to their dex-based nature. This new feature not only opens the doors to change how sneak attacks work, but removes the need for borderline abusive and generally not fun RP--that is, assassinations from hidden with no roleplay.

I'm all about the initiative mechanic. I'm all about sneak attacks. I think we should focus on how to marry these features together, and make a game that works for everyone--but in the end, I think we need to remember that the bumps on the way are not just there for us to fall on top of. They're there to climb over or smooth out, and remain productive in spite of.

*heavily edited after reading more of the posts ahead of mine and re-reading initial post*

In a previous post, I find that a lot of the original concerns I brought up have still not really been addressed.

I think Hross is on point with this post. Fixing sneak attack is a very important step in allowing rogues to gain utility and player interest. It won't fix everything, of course, but I think it's a big first step in the right direction.

Here are some links I found for rules on Sneak Attacks (the ones Hross was looking for):

All About Sneak Attacks (Part One)
All About Sneak Attacks (Part Two)
All About Sneak Attacks (Part Three)
All About Sneak Attacks (Part Four)

I don't have a whole lot of time to reply in a lot of detail, but I will say that Mask is in the process of implementing initiative properly. Feedback about how it any of this is reflected in the game would be welcome, but with the understanding that the final product is not on the street. The Code Council is testing other versions and Mask is adjusting based upon that feedback and the d20 rules.

One major issue with Thieves on FK is their difficulty in getting a decent armor class here. Of course, Theives were never mean to stand toe to toe for long against opponents to the capacity that a fighter can, but in FK they are dont have the abundance of equipment normally available in D&D and the suffer all the more for it. My Thief, at around level 22, cannot get through the Howling Peaks alone and needs to still train at rat hill when I play him. In fact, my Thief cannot even get to the second level of HP when alone [while fighting my way through].

At the end of the day, Thieves need to get XP, too. They need to train their skills as well and almost all of the above comes from fighting mobs. It would be very nice if the class had a chance at making XP on their own without having to beg for help every time they log in. Its hard to get into the world of shadows and intrigue when you cannot do anything by yourself.


A solution I've been pondering over is to tweak the dodge and parry skills so they are more effective for light armor characters. By more effective, I mean to increase the rate of success. This could be a potential balance maker for thieves. Currently, at adept, my dodge skill kicks in around once every 10 to 15 rounds. Sometimes more, sometimes less. I've never seen parry kick in. (I have it a bit lower than dodge, though). For a class that practically relies on dodging, avoidance and evasion, one would think that dodge and parry would be paramount skills to their survival.

Also, having a high level dex trainer available to characters without having to embark on a march of doom with the super powers of the realms would help the thief class a bit. If there is one readily available to all characters at the present time, Ive never found it. It would be nice if there was one in place. With my amazing AC of 19, it might actually help me to survive one more round with that extra dex point to AC though I'm not hopeful.

<Character Name>

Class: thief Level: 42 (ECL: 42) Hours Played: 1041

Now, most of the hours invested in this character were done well before the development of the Thief class that it is today. I've recently noticed a change for the worse in the ability of the thief class to hold it's own in combat with just about anything. Rats in the Waterdeep sewers still manage to land hits on my thief, while I have other PC's in the teens that demolish everything that puts a hurtin on my thief.
For this reason, I've shelved my thief until I feel they have a practical place and purpose in the FK world again.

I love the thief class on fk when I came back that's the first thing I did go make one to get back in the swing and have fun meeting new and old players again the fun way. I am getting my litle butt tromped by pretty much everything in some of the question areas. More so than I have in the past. I think they might need some help for balancing issues. I know they are high damage and low squishy, but from what I read it sounds like they need some more balacing. I am getting my butt handed to me by mobs I've been lvling on for a good little bit now. When others of lower lvl come mow down the step up. That is a bit..saddening.

fjarhet wrote:When others of lower lvl come mow down the step up. That is a bit..saddening.

I've agreed for a long time, but to make this more productive, are there any of Hrosskell's original suggestions that we can all come to an agreement on?

For instance, he suggests they are stretched too thin on Statistics:

Hrosskell wrote:To obtain any significant damage, they must invest in strength. To obtain any significant defences, they must invest heavily in constitution and dexterity. To use their skills effectively, they must invest heavily in intelligence and wisdom, and even charisma. There is no dump stat that other classes have, and there is no trade-off for their investments.

I agree completely with the above statement. A Rogue should need only Dexterity. My Rogues in D&D always have high Int because I'm a skills whore when I play a Rogue.

Maybe there should be more return on the investment into these statistics, sort of like the old Diablo where having non-primary stats were used to boost the strength of other skills. For instance, Poison Weapon would not require Int, but if you have 12 Int you do +2 damage instead of just +1. If you have 18 Int, you do a full +5 (though no bonus for having anything above 18 or penalty for having Int below 10). Introduce new poisons that can be applied instead of just straight HP damage ones. Perhaps Int should have some crafting options available for Thieves for trapmaking. Overhaul trapmaking so that it doesn't just affect exits or bags, but make it a full-fledged trade. Allow those with trapmaking skills to create smoke bombs, caltrops, alchemist fire, and all other kinds of fun stuff Rogues would use (like pepper bombs to ward against pesky animals). Make smoke bombs useful for creatures that require visibility. Allow armor to be trapped so that removing it from a corpse will damage the victim if it hasn't been disarmed.

Agreed! The way it stands now we are all over the place in what we need stats for! It works when your playing with PnP but on a MuD it kinda throws the balance off!