Quest Rewards

[Harroghty]

Two people have raised similar issues with me recently and so I wanted to share my perspective as a builder and staff member. This is not chastisement, neither is it meant as the final answer; this should open a discussion if others feel strongly about the issue.

I do not believe that each PC participating in a quest should receive a magical loot item. (I do pretty uniformly distribute glory, experience points, and sometimes coin.) I have two reasons for this.

First, it is not very IC for a small-time bandit or what-have-you to be packing a magical armory; I try to design my quest rewards to be more in line with what you would typically see in a 2E D&D quest module, a small-time boss has a magical weapon maybe and then more and more impressive ones have more impressive rewards.

Secondly, there is a ridiculous amount of magical loot available in the game right now and I do not see a great reason to flood the market with much more; if you really want a longsword +1 then you can probably go buy one for about 90 platinum. Yes, I realize that being given one for showing up on a small quest is much easier, but you could raise 90 platinum in one to four days of effort (depending on the amount of time which you devoted each day). (There are about 120 +1 loot weapons and 105 +1 armor objects for sale in the game now.)

So, from my perspective, it is more sensible to distribute small rewards for small quests and then have the group distribute the objects to those for whom they are most suitable. As some of you have pointed out, one does not always receive the most suitable object from a random table.

Feel free to dissent.

[Gwain]

I think this is reasonable. Items aside, in my opinion glory and coin are always king. Thank you.

[Casamir]

It does make sense to scale rewards to match the efforts in earning them, but to a point. Keeping in mind there are a finite number of quests available unlike PNP. It is fine to say, well mundane quests result in mundane rewards, but the options to do extraordinary things in order to gain extraordinary rewards are limited. Which brings us to the point of buying these kinds of rewards through effort, or more directly going out to make a new quest areas of significant difficulty to warrant what you seek.

However, I think the glut of items on the open market is evidence of another issue. Some might say, 'That much option in shopping for magical items, how is that a problem? It's more selection than has been had in perhaps forever, this is a good thing.' The issue is that they sit there, those same hundred items, a few are bought and sold, but mostly for months they just sit there looking pretty but otherwise useless. I find two problems, first too many of them means overall they are just that, less appreciated and devalue efforts to sell new gear. This has the chain effect of the second, new gear is sold in rarer locations or not sold at all, and those who would buy such gear having picked through most of the older already are harder pressed to find the newer stuff, in slim hopes of finding what they want. It is not about entitlement, so much as opportunity.

Now agree or disagree, I had an idea which is a solution interesting on its own. The market is flooded with this stuff, it's harder to find what you want. Solution, reduce what is on the market, and offer a chance for something new. What I am thinking of is the gambler system in various games like Diablo and such. Perhaps in a temple of Tymora or Beshaba, you turn in say ten magic reward items to a Mob in order to get one new random magic reward item. (Or maybe three of a like type for a new one, ie weapons, armour, jewellery) If trading essentially over one thousand platinum for what amounts to only a chance for something new, well numbers can be adjusted. Also perhaps the mob has a cool down timer to prevent immediate overuse. It adds extra purpose in saving up to buy these items, as well as making holding onto them more valuable. Do you keep than shiny new +1 item, or do you risk it all in hopes of finding that once in a million +3.

[Harroghty]

I am interested in the gambling idea. Would you recommend that there be a choice involved? i.e. you would hand in 10 objects and have some ability to influence the parameters of your result. Otherwise, I don't see a whole lot of incentive to turn in 10 weapons and maybe get a scroll in return. How does it work in those games?

[Casamir]

Perhaps it's scalable, each item you turn in gets you a credit. The more credits wagered the better the stakes for something good? This also opens the idea to magic potions, scrolls, and wands, which are sadly under used/appreciated. Being that you can find more scrolls and potions, a cool down would be needed to prevent abuse. But perhaps a wand equals a credit. Do you need 10 or 100 scrolls/potions? Should you get new potions and scrolls, or a credit? Hard to say. I would suggest first using a three of a kind exchange for something similar. Three being a lesser investment you have less control though, so maybe armour for armour, weapon for weapon, jewellery for jewellery.


In addition the ten investment allows you to specify. Roughly like with the Bildoboop (sp?) Harbour quest. Not the exact item like full plate bracer or bastard sword. Rather the armour type, such as heavy, light, medium, non and weapon type such as swords, axes, brawling. The example in my mind is the wizard, the ability to pay ten magical items and get some random magical non armour clothing back would be a wonderful option. Rogues and rangers want light armour, some want heavy, or a specific weapon type. Or maybe you have all these and you need the harder to find jewellery.
I think it is very important to have the option however thin to have that amazingly good item, but equally so to have the really bad items. The chance of +3 (though very, very improbable) is the incentive to play. The basic masterwork of +0, but also the -1, and the -2 or -3 and perhaps cursed is the risk in playing. But not all is lost for these bad pieces can still count toward the next gamble. Ie, sorry try your luck again.

The only other system I can think of is the enchanter. You invest these credits for arcane potential, at ten you give them a basic non-magic item, and get a random magical version back, be it good or bad. Kind of like 'imbue' from Diablo and other games. Finding a specific magical weapon base can be very difficult. How many magic krises, scythes, cesti are out there for example? I wonder if a gambler could be placed on Skull Island, I cannot think of few places in need of more attention.

[Selveem]

First, it is not very IC for a small-time bandit or what-have-you to be packing a magical armory; I try to design my quest rewards to be more in line with what you would typically see in a 2E D&D quest module, a small-time boss has a magical weapon maybe and then more and more impressive ones have more impressive rewards.

I would much rather just do quests myself, then, and be guaranteed a RMI loot reward than do a quest as a group and hope the leader is of the caliber of player to have my best needs in mind. And, provided s/he is, what if there are two of the same class in the group? What then? There's just too much gray area and room for OOC issues. Hell, what if the Leader just decided to keep the loot for themselves and say "F you guys, this is mine."? Too problematic.

Secondly, there is a ridiculous amount of magical loot available in the game right now and I do not see a great reason to flood the market with much more; if you really want a longsword +1 then you can probably go buy one for about 90 platinum. Yes, I realize that being given one for showing up on a small quest is much easier, but you could raise 90 platinum in one to four days of effort (depending on the amount of time which you devoted each day). (There are about 120 +1 loot weapons and 105 +1 armor objects for sale in the game now.)

Problem: most people don't give a damn about those. The market's flooded with those items because people have had +1 weapons for years. People want new shiny, not hand-me-downs-by-proxy-for-profit. Of those +1 armor, I'd wager that a good portion of those are armor types that are of lesser worth (brigadine, ring mail, half plate, splint mail, as good examples). Why the hell would anyone possibly want a +1 half plate armor when they can just go buy mundane full plate armor that gives just as much armor as the magical half plate AND allows for a Dex bonus to armor AND has less armor check penalty? Same with a lot of those other armor types. They simply are not worth your character wearing.

I don't even see any reason why half plate is in the loot table for RMI. It's almost just as bad as the quest giver pulling out his pockets and saying, "Do you accept I.O.U.s?" But I guess that's a different rant.

Anyhow, the idea of loot exchange isn't new by any means, but that certainly does not mean it's not a great idea. I don't like the idea of cursed items, however. These are the rewards you got for doing notable deeds. Getting a mundane item would be bad enough. I like the idea of a credit system as proposed by Casamir, but to expand on it I think you should be able to ensure certain traits. For instance, for a certain amount of credit you will be assured that your item will be of +1 to +3 quality. For a certain amount, you can set the base item type (set the armor to leather or set the weapon to katana). For another amount, you can set the size and allow it to be worn by all creature types (for instance, my Wemic fighter is still without any leg or foot armor).

I also think Enchanting is long overdue on FK. All those pieces of "garbage gear" out there right now could be picked up by those with enchanting feats to practice bolstering the magic on them - adding stat bonuses and the like. I think requiring an item to already be magical would be a nice way to take a bunch of those items out of shopkeepers' hands.

[Trillarel]

Anyhow, the idea of loot exchange isn't new by any means, but that certainly does not mean it's not a great idea. I don't like the idea of cursed items, however. These are the rewards you got for doing notable deeds. Getting a mundane item would be bad enough. I like the idea of a credit system as proposed by Casamir, but to expand on it I think you should be able to ensure certain traits. For instance, for a certain amount of credit you will be assured that your item will be of +1 to +3 quality. For a certain amount, you can set the base item type (set the armor to leather or set the weapon to katana). For another amount, you can set the size and allow it to be worn by all creature types (for instance, my Wemic fighter is still without any leg or foot armor).

I also think Enchanting is long overdue on FK. All those pieces of "garbage gear" out there right now could be picked up by those with enchanting feats to practice bolstering the magic on them - adding stat bonuses and the like. I think requiring an item to already be magical would be a nice way to take a bunch of those items out of shopkeepers' hands.

I love the idea of loot exchange, but without cursed items, too.

Enchanting would be brilliant for clerics and mages out there, too.

It would also help if my char could tell IC if the item is magical or not. I happened to buy a ridiculously expensive helmet and saw nothing that would justify its price...

[Aldren]

It would also help if my char could tell IC if the item is magical or not. I happened to buy a ridiculously expensive helmet and saw nothing that would justify its price...

There are means IC to tell whether or not an item for sale is magical. You are not, however, able to tell the imbued properties on an item for sale unless, of course, you buy it and identify it.

[Hrosskell]

When thinking of an outlet for quest rewards, two possibilities come to mind, for me. I think that a profession-based enchanting system should be implemented. Permanent, variable, and using ridiculously high/rare components. These components should be obtained by turning magical items in to a "disenchanter," someone who can reward any player--regardless of whether they have the profession or not--the components to enchanting by breaking down magical items. Weapons reward weapon enchanting components, armor rewards armor enchanting components, scrolls/potions reward tokens that can be turned in for either, but in massive bundles--and of the RMI variety only. This would, in my opinion, breathe life into masterwork crafting, improve the demand for nonmagic but masterwork RMIs, and this gives players the power to recycle and upgrade, moving on towards better things. You could make it as in-depth as the D20 enchanting system; enhancement bonuses to be obtained before upgrades like keen, flaming, etc. Make it hard. Make it interesting. Make it a goal.

The second would be to apply these enchants for glory. I would recommend a moderate glory cost--10 for the first enhancement bonus, 15 for every after, capped at +3. I'd then charge 20 for actual enchantments that can add up to the enhancement bonus, but limit it to one enchant. That's about 60 total glory for a +3 flaming longsword or what have you. That's pretty huge, compared to what's around now. If characters are rename happy, like me, they may scrape for 60 total glory after their outfit is set. Even if they're not, they'd be lucky to do all the quests in the game, both good and evil, and get 4 pieces of loot that valuable. Even 3 is a stretch for most toons.

At the same time, and while I know our builders are stretched thin (and I'm not helping much, piddling around on side project areas that never get finished), I think we SHOULD have high-end things to turn our weapons on. Monsters and dungeons and trials and grand, arcing story plots that are of a measure we haven't seen in FK before. Probably another discussion. I probably didn't get on topic once! Forgive me! I'll do it.

As for quests not giving a magical reward.. I think that's fine, until like Selveem mentioned, two or more people complete the same quest at the same time that they could've completed on their own, and only one gets a material reward. While the other gets glory, it's less tangible and currently the outlet for it (aesthetic) is only appetizing to certain people (myself included, but I could imagine others do not find it so appealing). I don't think we should complain though. I think we should take a proactive stance and solve our problems, look for solutions. A certain amount of foresight is necessary to grow; otherwise you get stagnant, bogged down, and unhappy.

[Lysha]

Where as material rewards such as gear or weapons are greatly appreciated, money and glory does me just fine. I am also a fan of not being able to trade in a certain area until a quest is completed, NPCs remembering your name when you come by and thanking PCs, discounts, or even something as simple as a small bag with food from a grateful family/farm/community. It's not always about the best loot, but being rewarded does feel pretty good. (And I'm a sucker for food. I get excited when I find a new food item in game.)

[fjarhet]

Mmm I had a thought on the RMI thing. Coming back to it and seeing it I love it! It opens up variety for weapons and armor when it was extremely narrow in the past, but when reading the forums it just seems all over the place. For this guy getting this and that guy getting that and when it comeso ut the majorit of the stuff they can't use. Perhaps having a slight increase in the types of things they get having a slightly higher chance of being chosen. Maybe let it look at your main class not the sub class you chose to narrow the field down a little. If not I was just throwing the thought out there. I haven't experienced it enough to tell one way or the other.

[Selveem]

Maybe let it look at your main class not the sub class you chose to narrow the field down a little. If not I was just throwing the thought out there. I haven't experienced it enough to tell one way or the other.

For many classes, though, that's still extremely varied. For instance, Paladins can use leather armor, but how many Paladins do you see decked out in all leather armor in battle? Considering how much AC a Paladin would lose, why would a Paladin want leather (aside from style points, of course)? Still, that should also be an option. If I want to make a 20+ Dex fighter to take advantage of lighter armors and use weapon finesse and the like, I should be able to build my character like that.

That's why I feel that the ability to shape that randomness is important. When you play D&D, your DM gets a sense of the type of armor you are looking for based on what you chose to wear on creation. Or, failing that, the regret you express when you're unable to buy the Masterwork Full Plate armor because you instead chose a really nice greataxe.

In the MUD, there is only automation, but perhaps some of that intuition can be programmed in as well. Say, for instance, I am wearing all studded leather armor. When the reward is being bestowed by the King of Shadowdale, he looks at your armor before commissioning a suitable reward (or having one selected from his vault). "Ah, I see this Knight favors studded leather dyed red. I believe I have something to suit her tastes."

Of course, there's also the chance that nothing is readily available to match your character's preferences, which might work just as it does now.

I think rather than another random stab in the dark (as a "gambling" system would be), it would be nice if there was a score card read at the time of quest completion that examines the # of specific types of armor you're wearing and the # of a specific color. Then, a cross-reference to your character's class to ensure the reward is one your character can wear (in case the Thief is acting like a Fighter, but doesn't actually want full plate - it'll just look like the quest failed to give her something she wanted).

Maybe something as high as a 50% chance that the RMI is something that matches the criteria above. Otherwise, completely random.

[fjarhet]

Hmm definetly intuition on what one wears would be nice, but what if yo wear something you can only get and not something you are aiming to wear? With varying degree's of each of the class light medium and heavy? Would it choose just a category then randomly choose from the category and not jsut straight from the type we are using?

[Selveem]

Hmm definetly intuition on what one wears would be nice, but what if yo wear something you can only get and not something you are aiming to wear? With varying degree's of each of the class light medium and heavy? Would it choose just a category then randomly choose from the category and not jsut straight from the type we are using?

it would be nice if there was a score card read at the time of quest completion that examines the # of specific types of armor you're wearing and the # of a specific color. Then, a cross-reference to your character's class to ensure the reward is one your character can wear

Basically, what that's saying is if you can't afford to have all full plate (since it's the most expensive armor), you would probably have more pieces of full plate on than you would have pieces of armor that are studded leather, so you're more likely to get new pieces of full plate. If you're just starting out, obviously that would mean that there would be more pieces of "cloth" type RMIs, but that would incentivize young Fighters to start saving up money for full plate pieces or seeking a patron to fund their training and armor.

It's by no means a perfect system, just something I see as a slight improvement over the current system. I'm always open to hearing other ideas, of course. We've already got some quests that ask people what they'd prefer to get as rewards, but most of those aren't even very specific.

[Calico]

Perhaps make an exchange to? You win this and it's not something you can use but it can branch into a choice of similar items of different categories? of the same type of piece like a chest ofr a chest or a blade type for blade type? Not letting you nit pick through the whole loot list, but giving a few options from it for each randomized looking at wear location and maybe makign other weapon types random for exchanges. Aye I like the RMI system, but making it so it helps but doesnt hand feed us loot would be smart to.

[Casamir]

Perhaps it is being over-thought, you hand in three RMI, you get one RMI. Rinse and repeat, as is the nature of gambling. If the basic system worked, then perhaps it would warrant more complicated systems.

[Selveem]

Perhaps it is being over-thought, you hand in three RMI, you get one RMI. Rinse and repeat, as is the nature of gambling. If the basic system worked, then perhaps it would warrant more complicated systems.

That's already been proposed.

If there were an infinite number of quests, I would agree that this is a very good solution, but that isn't the case. Despite a gambling system such as is used in Diablo/Torchlight series being a great thing for that particular game, those systems do not even require magic items dumped for a chance at a good item, just coin, which is infinite in that game but only requires time to get. What's being proposed here is asking the finite items a player receive be traded for the chance at something useful. I don't think a little complication being added to the system is unwarranted or unreasonable.

Should I start logging on my characters that are weighed down by the amount of platinum I have and start a buying frenzy of all the garbage gear out on vendors right now in anticipation of a system such as the gambling one proposed? All in all, I don't like the idea because it is just as flawed (or more so) than our current system.

[Gwain]

I suppose having the rmi respond to the guild/class of the character receiving it, leathers for rogues in the case of armour or daggers in the case of weapons.

[Calico]

Hmm It should have something to check in with preference a bit to. Not all warriors and there subclasses or rogues or priests will wear plate or chain either respectively. The weapons I think can be almost totally radomized or check against what that person knows? There are alot of people that go against the norm out there and shouldn't be penalized for it either.

[Selveem]

Re:Calico:

That's exactly my thoughts with regards to class deviants. If a Thief wants to wear plate, more power to them. That's why I suggested a count that scans the character's current equipment to attempt to anticipate what the character prefers.

With regards to your comment about weapons, perhaps if a weapon is going to be generated the count could still study the primary color of the character's gear so that when the weapon is loaded, there's a much higher chance it will be the color of their current equipment.

As for specific weapons, I agree that I'm not certain they're really necessary to anticipate a player's preference for their character, but I'm sure it could be done as well.