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Death ward appears to be one of those prayers one lv above the brewing level (lv4) I would like to suggest that an exception be made for this spell to either be brewable or have a mobile sell potions of death warding in places of wider availability. This comes on the heels of opponents with a wider availability of instant killing spells and the will to use them in most combat instances. Its more for players of warrior, rogue and wizard classes that have no access to defences that death ward would provide.

I would be against making it too widely available and invalidating kill spells all together. Rather a new and brewable lower level spell with a chance rather than a guarantee of blocking kill spells would be preferable to me.

I see no reason these classes cannot group with a cleric that has it. I mean if we open the door to this I'm sure we can make excuses to allow other spells to be brewed about the allowable lvl.

Casamir wrote:I would be against making it too widely available and invalidating kill spells all together. Rather a new and brewable lower level spell with a chance rather than a guarantee of blocking kill spells would be preferable to me.

I'm for this. Its a great idea.

I'd also be one of those people to make excuses to brew all spells But I'm also a realist and not a sadist.

I imagine something like: Soul shield, Level 3 spell, a temporary buff that will absorb up to one successful kill spell. After that it must be recast to regain protection.

Well i think its silly thinking that a person should have to group with a cleric. For one there are times when there isnt a cleric online. Think thats gonna stop some evil from instakillin ya cause they can. Nope. Sorry but when the response to bannin insta kill spells was you should use death ward you have to make sure its accesible. Me prersonally i vote just get rid of pvp period. Its pointless. But thats just my opinion, tons of folk like it so. Thing is dnd was never about pvp. The game isn not desinged to be balanced. No one enjoys loosing. We have a small community of players. All I see pvp doin is causin resentment.

All instant kill spells allow a save of some sort, right? Maybe it's more about boosting your Will save than having the perfect counter spell or potion.

I think a lot of the saves are broken, though I have not confirmed this myself. More hearsay.

If saving throws are working correctly, I would be all for a brewable spell to boost saving throws as an alternative to brewable death ward.

Isn't resilience already brewable?

I am agreeing with the idea of not making it so widely available that you need not group with a caster who has the spell. A compromise sounds great.

Lets remember that death ward is not only for pvp, and plenty of places you may adventure has a need for it. We need not derail this thread into our likes and dislikes about pvp.

Valiance
========
Abjuration
Range: Close
Target: Defensive
Syntax: cast 'valiance' <target>

This spell grants a bonus to saving throws versus paralysis attacks.
It can be cast upon others.

This spell cannot be cast by a transmuter

(A) 3rd Level Bard Spells (B) 3rd Level Cleric Spells
(C) 3rd Level Druid Spells (D) 3rd Level Wizard Spells
(E) Abjuration spells

Resilience
==========
Abjuration
Range: Close
Target: Defensive
Syntax: cast resilience <target>

This spell imbues the subject with magical protective energy, granting
a small bonus on all saving throws.

This spell cannot be learned by a transmuter.

(A) 2nd Level Paladin Spells (B) 3rd Level Bard Spells
(C) 3rd Level Cleric Spells (D) 3rd Level Druid Spells
(E) 3rd Level Wizard Spells (F) Abjuration spells
(G) Protection Domain (H) Renewal Domain



These are both in the brewable range. And both spells I use -non stop- on my priests. Additionally, toss this into your pot as your 3rd
Mirror Image
============
Illusion (Figment)
Range: Personal
Target: Self
Syntax: cast 'mirror image'

Several illusory duplicates of you appear around you and follow you. It
is impossible for your opponent to know which one is you and which one is
an image. Each image that is hit will disappear. The number of images you
create depends on your skill level with this spell.

This spell was originally researched by the mage Myn Cimril.

This spell cannot be learned by a necromancer

(A) 2nd Level Bard Spells (B) 2nd Level Wizard Spells
(C) Illusion Domain (D) Illusion Spells


and I'd say your a pretty formidable caster killing machine.. Its out there. Fighters are -not- defenseless against priests or wizards. I know from playing these as well, and making casters a focus on one. Theres plenty of feat options to buff up saving throws too, such as


Iron Will Feat
==============
Characters possessing this feat are able to draw upon an unusual reserve of
willpower in the face of danger. This feat will improve your will saving
throw.

* This feat has no pre-requisites.

(A) General Feats

Lightning Reflexes Feat
=======================
Characters possessing this feat have exceptionally quick reflexes in the face
of danger. This feat will improve your reflex saving throw.

* This feat has no pre-requisites.

(A) General Feats

Great Fortitude Feat
====================
Characters possessing this feat are able to draw upon an unusual reserve of
fortitude in the face of danger. This feat will improve your fortitude
saving throw.

* This feat has no pre-requisites.

(A) General Feats


and your even nastier. Its possible. Just takes the right moves. =) I've been on both ends of PVP and PVE with casters. A wizard that runs around with 88 Lightning Bolts mem'd and NO utility spells, deserves to die. Same for priests.

And thats not even mentioning the fighter specific feats that are available to help combat casters, such as Shield Prof and Shield Ward. Additionally, Im not sure that there -are- problems with saving throws. I've seen them function properly, success I've found depends on PC level vs PC/NPC level ONTOP of skill level to overcome them. Of course a lvl 50 wiz is going to have no problem bypassing saving throws on a lvl 25 fighters. Of course a lvl 45 drow priestess thats GM at harm is going to overcome your 50 half-elves 10-15 dex save. And yes.. that same drow priestess is more than happy to sneer at your poor attempts to get past her SR if you are lacking the SP feats.

Back in the day, when I was PVPing every single day (When I was young but Gwain was still old) it was considered cheap to use insta kills spells. It was considered cheap because whoever cast first, won. In the beginning it can be a bit thrilling to try them out and kill people in two seconds but the thrill soon wears off when you are the victim and have died for the x'th time in the day without the fight lasting more than one spell. Quite predictably, we got sick of using them. It became an unwritten rule to not use them.

Other spells, too, like disintegrate were just as bad. Distintegrate was functioning without saves, and it either did about 60-70% damage or it killed you. The second and rarely third sucessive casts killed all but the most hearty of the old-school stat-inflated characters. That was another spell, among a few others we all agreed was kind of cheezy as it was again a 'who cast first - wins' spell.

However, there was also a cold war so to speak. If you insta killed me, I would find you and insta kill you at the most inopportune time that I thought existed for you. So, that balanced things out as we all respected that counter measure. That balance is, however, rather one sided now. The area effect insta kills spells are predominatly sitting on the evil characters and they are not flowing to the good sided characters. In fact, I have almost never seen some of them used in game until quite recently. I am purely assuming here that someone brought in a very old evil character that had these spells and passed them around to the evil spell casters exclusively in recent times.

Well there are two points I can make from this:

First, that balance should be restored. The area effect death spells need to be made available to all casters, good and evil. Please don't rationalize that good casters will never use death spells. D&D is ripe with good characters more than willing to kill their enemies of faith, country, or of pesonal vandetta with any means available to them, by sword, lightning bolt, or a phantasmal killer spell. And in the mud environment, there needs to be a cold war balance otherwise it will get out of hand and insta kill spells will be banned from PVP as they already were once for a short time. In fact, I was the one that complained to no small end on these very forums that they should not be banned as they are an integral part of being a powerful caster.
So don't get me wrong about my motivations, I just want to see things fairly balanced out.

Second, Death ward is a great spell to counter these insta kills spells/prayers but it is a divine based spell of 4th level and out of the range for Brewing and should be respected as such else the pandoras box will be burst open and then someone will feel the need to justify other 4th level spells, and oh and we really should have HEAL brewable, too and down the rabbit hole we fall...(I would actually love to be able to brew Heal by the way )

However, D&D provides death magic immunity trinkets. They are not that rare either. If I recall, they are rather common. Lets get some in game. Maybe some special Glory exchange items? Or just make some RMI what have death magic immunity on them. Just as death magic spells are a part of D&D, so are anti Death magic protections a basic part of it.

Additionally, we have alchemy enchanting already in game, and they provide death magic protection among other things. The problem is that the last time I tested them I felt they were broken. It would be a great start to get those working again. They are already coded in, I think they just need to be tweaked so they are putting the correct bonuses to the saving throws, or percentage of immunity or however they were intended to work.

All in all, a terribly long post that slighly moved off topic, but I can see that this is going to be an issue that will keep boiling up until something is done. I would like to see the spells stay in game but I would like to see them proliferate across the player base and also I would like to see the appropriate counter measures in place as well.

The appropriate counter measures are in place. I really don't understand what people are asking for. Work as a team, don't get yourself into situations you can't handle, and you will enjoy things much more. This game isn't meant to be a solo affair to stroke your tender ego.

Not really interested in an overhaul to basically give death ward to everyone. Death spells are supposed to kill you, that is why they are called death spells.

Wanting death ward to be brewable so you can dole out caches of them to your buddies to counteract the "evil guys with rare death magic" is not an acceptable argument in my opinion. Especially seeing as how good-aligned PCs have been diligently hoarding rare magic/skills and only passing them to their 'friends' since the beginning of time.

There are already various ways to improve saving vs. death, so what you are really asking for is the ability for non-priest classes to become outright immune to death magic without them needing the caster present. Yeah... definitely against this and anything remotely similar to it.

Honestly I think everyone needs to quit their complaining and enjoy the game. And Zor as far as I can tell a lot of the insta kill spells are evil in nature so are more likely to be found on an evil character, though there is phant killer.

Phantasmal Killer is one of the death spells with broken saves. I reported that previously; as it is, the spell is much more powerful than it should be.

I was just pointing out that it is widely available I didn't now about the saves though.