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Sunelves
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:56 am
by Tyeslan
I would like to suggest that a higher kismet is placed for sunelves(200), and that they ability to follow a human god restricted to application only, like the moon elves priests, as sunelves are an elite elf race, and should be pretty strict in their ability to follow the elven pantheon, what is suggested by Forgotten Realms, and D&D. Sun elves are elitists when it comes to their race, believing that no humans, including gods, are good enough for any of them, and belittle those elves of any kind that follow any human god, often shunning them.
Sun elves are pretty well outlined as to how they should act, and who they should follow, and I believe that being allowed to follow a human god subtracts from the purpose, and race. I understand the appeal to make sun elf wizards as they have a great starting intelligence bonus, but they should be far more restricted than they have been granted moon elves have been given the alignment, and god restrictions as well. There is plenty of opportunity to make a sun elf that follows any of the many elven gods, but also one that doesn't need to be a noble without sullying what the sun elf race should stand for.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Sun_elf
Re: Sunelves
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:07 am
by Kaaurk
I agree completely Sun Elfs are elitist and should act accordingly
Re: Sunelves
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:10 am
by Harroghty
The kismet requirement for sun elves is already high. It's not that I do not agree, but I do not believe that kismet is the right answer. The responses of other players, in character, are the strongest form of persuasion with respect to roles. You might find it odd that the sun elf wishes to pursue a human god, but it doesn't mean much unless you express that belief in character.
Re: Sunelves
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:14 am
by Tyeslan
I think a higher kismet would dissuade the use of another golden 'pointy eared' human though. Maybe the helpfiles should be updated to point out that sunelves shouldn't be following human gods without a good reason as to why they would move away from such a stringent way of life, and this should be handled through applications. Not to make the imm staff have to deal with more, but sun elves are an outlined race. They should stick to that, or maybe we should open up the rest of the races to go away from their lives as well. It's a bit weird to have so many restrictions on moon elves, but not on sunelves.
Re: Sunelves
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:17 am
by Algon
I have to agree with this post. I think that something so far out of the norm for a Sun Elf, such as following a human deity, should be at applied for. At least for them to explain their background and the reasons why they would want to step outside the Elven Pantheon. I am not saying they should be restricted to just those deities, but I think that there should definitely be a good reason why they would want to follow one.
They are pretty elitist when it comes to things like that, not only would the be shunned by the rest of their race, they would loose a lot of what makes them a Sun Elf in my opinion.
Just my two cents!
Re: Sunelves
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:24 am
by Harroghty
If you feel strongly about it then I invite you to draft a revised help file and post it here. Y'all can debate it here and then the staff can look it over.
Re: Sunelves
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:50 am
by Casamir
I agree with most of the points made, so long as it does not influence contrary applications nor impose any alignment restrictions. The information is 'generally' true, but not entirely so, and that website linked while useful is polluted with plenty of fourth edition material. While some of this appears to be accurate, some of it is a fourth edition interpretation painting them as the super or high elf, which is not entirely reflective of their status up to and including 3.5. There are many sects of gold elves, rare as they are, and not the least of them is House Dlardrageth, which has many more pure blooded members/minions than those actually fiendish or hybrid. The elitist sun elves driven by a lust for personal power are well known, making many of them the evil wizard who goes so far as to integrate into Underdark society, or the cleric who has followed a so called 'human god.' It is important to remember that many gods have many 'lesser' non-human manifestations. Preventing pointy-eared golden humans blithely following a common deity is affable, but such a direction should not dissuade creative applications for these rarer but valid alternatives.
Re: Sunelves
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:44 am
by Tyeslan
Casamir wrote:I agree with most of the points made, so long as it does not influence contrary applications nor impose any alignment restrictions. The information is 'generally' true, but not entirely so, and that website linked while useful is polluted with plenty of fourth edition material. While some of this appears to be accurate, some of it is a fourth edition interpretation painting them as the super or high elf, which is not entirely reflective of their status up to and including 3.5. There are many sects of gold elves, rare as they are, and not the least of them is House Dlardrageth, which has many more pure blooded members/minions than those actually fiendish or hybrid. The elitist sun elves driven by a lust for personal power are well known, making many of them the evil wizard who goes so far as to integrate into Underdark society, or the cleric who has followed a so called 'human god.' It is important to remember that many gods have many 'lesser' non-human manifestations. Preventing pointy-eared golden humans blithely following a common deity is affable, but such a direction should not dissuade creative applications for these rarer but valid alternatives.
Can you please post your sources, Casamir? While I agree with a lot of what you said, the helpfile for sunelves uses this, but also, a lot of it comes directly from FR, and the books for that page, it's not as polluted with 4th ed as you think. Here in FK we have the ability to follow those so called non-human manifesetations, and still represent the sun elves, or elves in general for that matter, correctly. The sunelves that we have, have a tendancy to be good, or neutral, and can easily follow Corellon, or one of the various Seldarine through applications. To get into house Dlardrageth we would need to start adding in Fey'ri to the game, and vastly change a few things to deal with the elven RP, and as was started in another thread, many of the elf lovers who like to follow cannon, don't want to step into that. I would like to see sun elves stay as sun elves, and not those that have gone wayward, becoming the golden humans, as we see now. It honestly doesn't make sense for sun elves to go that far from being Corellon's children, and promoting their race.
Re: Sunelves
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:52 am
by Isolrem
There comes a point when everyone wants to be so unique a snowflake that the game loses its representation of its source. When elves are among the favorite PC races and the faith of Corellon is still in shambles, you know you have a problem. Maybe we should mandate that players have the requisite knowledge to play any special race (aka one that generally doesn't live amongst humans). I've seen other MUDs require you to compile a thorough background for each character which must be approved before advancing past a certain level. I believe that system leans a tad on the side of strictness (not all good RPers might enjoy writing out bibliographies for their characters), but possibly we could have a quiz that must be answered before choosing one of these races - as an alternative to or in conjunction with kismet cost.
Re: Sunelves
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:15 am
by Alexan
Isolrem wrote:... but possibly we could have a quiz that must be answered before choosing one of these races - as an alternative to or in conjunction with kismet cost.
I'm not against your suggestion, my only problem is that with google most quizzes, unless they are unique and more based in FK created lore, it's hard to fail.
I'm not against the special and unique snowflake within a race... one of the first things I learned on tabletop is that adventurers are not the norm... most times that's the reason they adventure. But there should be a few rules.
That being said, I'm more for the IC solution... if you feel someone is acting odd for a member of that race (not barring alignment, you can be eltist and not follow the rules because you are too pompus, or be elitist and bend and work within them because you are that well-versed), remind them of it.
And as for the final point of human gods... well we have staff and FMs whom I trust with the decision that if they are RPing correctly, and deserve it, then they'll get in. Nothing wrong with following outside your pantheon, but make sure it makes sense and the character has shown the OOC seriousness that it takes to RP outside their pantheon, and that should apply to every race.
Re: Sunelves
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:00 am
by Gwain
I would not be against adding a kismet requirement for sun elves and restricting their faith choice to Corellon. However I would like to forgive and allow every sun elf that has deviated before this policy and let them rp out their current choice as they see fit with no ooc repercussions or ooc critique. Ic-wise I could see sun elves digging into those outsider elves that serve human gods. And of course, I would allow sun elves the chance to apply to serve other gods.
Re: Sunelves
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:30 am
by Tyeslan
Alexan wrote:Isolrem wrote:... but possibly we could have a quiz that must be answered before choosing one of these races - as an alternative to or in conjunction with kismet cost.
I'm not against your suggestion, my only problem is that with google most quizzes, unless they are unique and more based in FK created lore, it's hard to fail.
I'm not against the special and unique snowflake within a race... one of the first things I learned on tabletop is that adventurers are not the norm... most times that's the reason they adventure. But there should be a few rules.
That being said, I'm more for the IC solution... if you feel someone is acting odd for a member of that race (not barring alignment, you can be eltist and not follow the rules because you are too pompus, or be elitist and bend and work within them because you are that well-versed), remind them of it.
And as for the final point of human gods... well we have staff and FMs whom I trust with the decision that if they are RPing correctly, and deserve it, then they'll get in. Nothing wrong with following outside your pantheon, but make sure it makes sense and the character has shown the OOC seriousness that it takes to RP outside their pantheon, and that should apply to every race.
You make great points, but I will disagree with the view on the basics of sun elves. There are pantheons for every race for a reason, I think I would like to see that these are far more enforced, instead of adapting to a human god. It doesn't fit, or work when you have an elven counterpart, gnome counterpart, dwarven counterpart, etc. for each god, and race. So maybe the answer is to make these more readily available faith wise.
Moon elves are more common among humans, they should be allowed to serve within reason, but sun elves are the examples of Corellon, and have a completely outlined normality. While they may have had a bad egg, or two, and a couple snow flakes, I think these should be far more rare than the ones popping up in FK.
Gwain, I like your idea as well, and there will always be those old characters that come back, that have been different in the past that may need to be grandfathered through, or continue along with their story.
Everything is possible through application if it is different enough, and I think it needs to be evened out among all the races. Sun elves should be restricted to Corellon/Seldarine, unless a good reason is given, and applied for.
EDIT: I forgot to add my point about the quizzes. I actually do agree with race quizzes, and while google may solve them for you, it also makes you go to google to search, and more than likely you will find out information you may not have known, and can fix, or adjust your RP accordingly before making your character. It's a great idea with some merit, and keeps those from just willy-nilly making a sun elf that knows nothing about them(or any other race for that matter)
Re: Sunelves
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:21 am
by Alexan
Tyeslan wrote:
EDIT: I forgot to add my point about the quizzes. I actually do agree with race quizzes, and while google may solve them for you, it also makes you go to google to search, and more than likely you will find out information you may not have known, and can fix, or adjust your RP accordingly before making your character. It's a great idea with some merit, and keeps those from just willy-nilly making a sun elf that knows nothing about them(or any other race for that matter)
I'll concede to that. My worry is that most people, as was mentioned earlier, who are rolling a sun elf for the intelligence bonus are going to overlook this chance to learn. But that's case by case, as it is.
What I'm worried about is that most people who roll sun elves should already have a minimum of 100 kismet, and that's normally either 100 hours played or at least two good RPs. I'm not sure upping the kismet is going to do anything more than just use more kismet. Not against the idea of upping kismet for certain races in general, and alignments within the races, I just don't know if it would have a last effect other than making someone wait longer. All I can do on the kismet idea is plead ignorance.
I do enjoy Gwain's idea, and say that's fine. Community working together to help community should be the best option, throwing a hammer at the ignorant is not always smart, and new sun elves, after knowing the policy, should know that ostracization is coming.
As a final note (since I think I've worn out my own voice on the issue after two long posts), I can freely admit when I was a newer player, I had a religion issue. If it's staff a decision (or the community's beliefs) to keep races more within their own pantheon, maybe it should come up as a more prominent point in character creation? Like after choosing elf we could toss in a message saying:
Code: Select all
OOC: This race is limited to the Seldarine (or Drow) pantheons. Expect to be faith based with those deities. Application for faithing outside these pantheons are available, but rarely accepted.
Could do the same for other races as well, and making apping for within the pantheon not as rigid? I think the strategy here should be getting rid of ignorance and excuses. Someone could still make a character with that intent, but then they know it's a rarity, they know there will be a community who will look at them funny at every step, and they can't cry foul if they are denied. I think the people rolling for stats and faithing for the best "things" to get with it will not be deterred, but it's laid out there. Plus, it helps newer players.
Sorry for jumping on the soapbox again, but this is an issue I would like to see more fleshed out, not just for sun elves.
Re: Sunelves
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:22 am
by Larethiel
Personally, I disagree with even considering applications for sects such as House Dlardrageth. Why? Because people have yet to get a crasp of even common sunelves and their set of mind as well as their historic background in Faerun and because most people know little to naught about those rather specific aspects of lore. ("Homgz, I can be a evil-demon/devil-elf?!? dowant!!!"). And where's the fun about being something that 99% of the primarily targeted audience (elves) do not understand or know about? Before such hereditary enemies are introduced, the base races, in my opinion, need to flourish better.
Isolrem put it nicely:
When elves are among the favorite PC races and the faith of Corellon is still in shambles, you know you have a problem
It's not a real problem, but it is sort of speaking for itself. Sunelves commonly view themselves as the embodiment of Corellon due to having been born from his blood, why would they even want to follow a "minor" human god? (+2 Int aside...) Most "rebellious" types of sunelves following a human god or being a "special snowflake" did not display convincing knowledge about their own race to justify the choice of being aside the norm (+2 Int aside...). Instead of having people be whatever kind of unnormal sunelf they'd like to be, I'd rather see furthering the elven stuff that is already in game. Maybe the creation of an elf-only-starting area can be discussed that can be furnished with lore and racial background information. Some things might even be mandatory such as elven origin, physical aspects like reverie (there should be no elf that tells humans that reverie is like their sleep), centres of worship, big settlements or certain historic events. Other can be taken freely, f.e. lore dealing with noble houses, customs, culture, famous names and so on.
Just my 2 cents on my favorite subject.
Re: Sunelves
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:25 am
by Isolrem
I think the point of the quiz is that they have to Google the answers for them, and in the process hopefully learn something about what they purport to roleplay.
Adventurers are, indeed, often irregular in some way, but they needs not be counter-cultural to their heritage. My favourite example of this, albeit a bit off topic, concerns half-drows. I'd claim that the most successful half-drow character (in terms of IC influence) to ever play the game was Zarafae, who was a stereotypical evil half-drow (as the most of them are). The good and neutral half-drow that you see somewhat regularly in the game ought to be in the minority.
Re: Sunelves
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:34 am
by Tyeslan
Alexan wrote:
I'll concede to that. My worry is that most people, as was mentioned earlier, who are rolling a sun elf for the intelligence bonus are going to overlook this chance to learn. But that's case by case, as it is.
This is my main point for upping the amount of kismet, but even then it could be totally overlooked. This only allows one to have 20 int by level 5, and nothing more, but some people would rather abuse a race, and misuse it to get it that fast, instead of taking the time to research information, and play a race correctly, but this could be for any race with a +2 anything from the start.
Alexan wrote: As a final note (since I think I've worn out my own voice on the issue after two long posts), I can freely admit when I was a newer player, I had a religion issue. If it's staff a decision (or the community's beliefs) to keep races more within their own pantheon, maybe it should come up as a more prominent point in character creation? Like after choosing elf we could toss in a message saying:
Code: Select all
OOC: This race is limited to the Seldarine (or Drow) pantheons. Expect to be faith based with those deities. Application for faithing outside these pantheons are available, but rarely accepted.
Could do the same for other races as well, and making apping for within the pantheon not as rigid? I think the strategy here should be getting rid of ignorance and excuses. Someone could still make a character with that intent, but then they know it's a rarity, they know there will be a community who will look at them funny at every step, and they can't cry foul if they are denied. I think the people rolling for stats and faithing for the best "things" to get with it will not be deterred, but it's laid out there. Plus, it helps newer players.
Sorry for jumping on the soapbox again, but this is an issue I would like to see more fleshed out, not just for sun elves.
I think this would be great for all faiths that should be expected to follow their race pantheon, and make it known that while expected, applications can always resolve it for them to follow other wise. There might be a few exception to the rules, and those could be fleshed out in the faith helpfiles like a few of them do now.
Lare, I like the idea of a race-specific area to learn more about it, but that would require builders, and people willing to put it together. So it rather depends on who has time, and the ability to do so, and the agreement of the imms on this matter. I fully agree with the lack of education in these points, and people need to do more research, and learn to play a common sunelf, before a hard RP comes in like the fey'ri house.
Re: Sunelves
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:30 am
by Thisiana
As with any game, source material only takes you so far, and then personal interrpretation is required. To a large extent in many cases. That being said, i do agree with the application idea.
However, these specific lines for the source material mut be considered and interrpreted accordingly.
"...stereotypically elitist ways...
"Haughty and arrogant, sun elves typically feel themselves superior to most other races..."
"Sun elves are firmly of the belief that they stand as the sole protectors and inheritors of Corellon's legacy in the Prime."
"Although sun elves favor the arcane, they do not neglect the divine and most sun elves are deeply religious. This piety is often intertwined with nationalism, as sun elves firmly believe they are the chosen people of the Seldarine."
You must read each of those individually and answer them, as well as take in all of the other source information. But for the points in this post, the above do the trick.
Elitist, haughty, arogant, and feeling superior to other races- That can take MANY forms. That doesn't immediately mean that they follow the same god, and hate/dislike others, and hate/dislike other races. Feeling superior means just that, it doesnt mean hate or even dislike neccesarily, though it certainly can, the exception is towards the drow which is clearly outlined in the source material. Plenty of people other than sun elves are haughty and arogant with an elitist attitude and feel superior to others, take a cleric of most any evil faith for example.
"Sun elves are firmly of the belief that they stand as the sole protectors and inheritors of Corellon's legacy in the Prime."-
The sole protectors and inherirors of... legacy. That does not say devout worshipers. You can honor, respect, and pay tribute to any diety, that does not nevvesarily mean that you follow them blindly.
"Although sun elves favor the arcane, they do not neglect the divine and most sun elves are deeply religious. This piety is often intertwined with nationalism, as sun elves firmly believe they are the chosen people of the Seldarine."- Deeply religious, piety, nationalism, chosen people... Once again, nothing states that they worship the elven pantheon exclusively. It does say they are deeply religious and loyal...chosen protectors of the People, and are a firm and religious people.
Maybe people ASSUME they follow the Seldarine, and that is typically the norm. But nothing says that is the rule. It may hint at it, but the way I see it, its about as clear as mud. The way i understand it, in a broad sense, is that sun elves are of a generally elitist attitude, and a bit haughty and arogant.uppity if you will. They also deeply respect and love the Seldarine, and will honor them with the last ounce of their beings. BUT, bearing that in mind, would do anything to protect the Seldarine...even in those rare cases of following a different diety.
I can only help but think I am one of the specific people being addressed in this thread. I welcome Harroghty suggestion that if you find it strange or unacceptable to seek me out IC and ask me about it. You might be suprised by the answer you get.
And like i said, all of the above being said. I do support the idea for an application to follow non elven dieties. It wasn't required at the time, otherwise i would have submitted one when i made Thisiana. I think the kismet requirement is high enough already.
Re: Sunelves
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:12 pm
by Benorf
I don't have a sun elf, so I'm not going to make a huge deal about this, but here is my personal opinion and point:
You know what is *not* fun? Playing something exactly as described in the sourcebooks.
You know what people hate a ton? People who fit their stereotype perfectly.
I have never played a character from a race that was exactly as described, because that's just unrealistic. The remarkably enormous wide variety of quirks that humans have in real life prove this.
The entire point of the Drizzt Do'Urden series is proving that stereotypes are horrible things. A drow ventured to the surface to get away from a society he hated, and a dwarf accepted one of the kin of his worst enemies without much difficulty.
Anyway, I feel like too many people think that alignments in D&D are set in stone and that is exactly how you should play it. Alignments are constantly changing. I'm pretty sure that the perfect character ends in a different place/mentality than they began. The best character I ever played in 3.5 was a rogue/hexblade/spymaster who was borderline evil. He was faced with exactly the kind of person he had become, and changed. He gave up his hexblade powers and his quest for vengeance for honor.
I'm kinda rambling now, so I'm gonna cut it out.
tl;dr = Characters shouldn't be confined to exactly what the helpfiles describe as "normal" behavior.
Re: Sunelves
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:45 pm
by Alexan
Benorf wrote:tl;dr = Characters shouldn't be confined to exactly what the helpfiles describe as "normal" behavior.
I agree to an extent with your post, and with Thisiana's, and when I started posting, I even mentioned that adventurers are rarely the norm within their groups of people. I understand completely how playing straight as an arrow for races and cultures can get quite boring, and in many cases people don't want to just play a set, unevolving character.
But
Alignment isn't in stone in this game, that's why we have hidden alignments for staff to view. We have apping for special characters because not every person is the same.
Here's where the problem comes in: who do we RP with mostly on a MUD? Players. And that makes it completely different than tabletop. While on tabletop I might be with 5 or 6 unique people, as a general policy most DMs who play in a setting play the NPCs with these cultures in mind and in the forefront.
So where is the line drawn? Should every Elf faith a human deity because it's how they feel? I think as players and a community, we have to kind of understand that for reasonable cultural RP, otherwise, why play in the setting at all? Granted, in FR and FK the human pantheon is prominent, but it is not the only pantheon. And this is where I find apping to be the best solution.
Take Thisiana's character, since she has put herself out there. I've known the character since day one, I know the backstory, I know why her character wants to go the way she did. And she even admitted that she'd apply if it was a hard rule. I personally agree with her character and standing, but then again I know her backstory and her RP.
It just cones down for me is, if we app, if we keep a hard but fair process, then these things might not happen as much or be a galvanized problem. We have to understand that there are not just 6 people and every other adventurer is an NPC, but we also shouldn't let that deter us from what we want.
Typing on my phone, so excuse any mistakes or typos.
Re: Sunelves
Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:51 pm
by Casamir
So what can we do to promote better roll play instead of limiting it? Kismet seems like a lazy and ineffectual fix. 200 hours is already a lot of investment. Saving up longer will only produce more 'snowflakes' than traditional sun elves. If you had to pay -extra- kismet, you will want to be -extra- special, and really 'Drizzt has no meaning if everyone is Drizzt.'
These same arguments could be made for a lot of special races really, better drow or dwarves for starters. If someone wants to build a gold elf starter area with appropriate knowledge quests, that's good. If you want to be an active sun elf played 'properly,' and engage others both by example and education to create a more accurate elven RP community, even better.
I did look at the source books referenced in the article, and other than some hyperbole and misuse of the term eladrin, it was not as inaccurate as first glance. Though, I would still take in all of the novels as well, which tend to have characters as exceptions to the norm. Jander Sunstar, Maeralya, Sarya Dlardrageth, the heritors of Vyshaan. I wonder if given the isolationist nature of many of the gold elves, the solecistic 'improper' gold elves we encounter might actually be ironically the most accurate portrayals.