Paladin Squires: Call for Input

[Harroghty]

Paladins, paladin squires (successful or not) and interested others: I would love to hear your feedback on the paladin system. You can post here or you can PM me with your opinions about the system.

• What is good?
  
  What is bad?
  
  What should we keep?
  
  What should we improve?
  
  What should we toss?
  
  What should be changed with paladins in general?

I have some ideas, but I would love to have your feedback as well.

[Alitar]

More pro-activity and earlier intervention by staff in regards to in-active mentors. Being stalled a lot has a lasting effect on someone's motivation to play a character.
Alternatively, periodic review with the squire or encouraging squires a bit more (in helpfiles) to approach staff if they feel their mentor is not present enough could result in a quicker resolution.

I've rather enjoyed my journey as a squire and am excited to return to the path.

[Tyeslan]

I think being reliant on IC mentors to continue your training is one of the downfalls. RL tends to hit people, and not everyone has the time for the classes, and events to continue a squires training. I think the squires need to become more self run, with the aid of NPC's to continue training, or show that you finish classes, even if a time limit is some how placed on those.

[Alexan]

I think being reliant on IC mentors to continue your training is one of the downfalls. RL tends to hit people, and not everyone has the time for the classes, and events to continue a squires training. I think the squires need to become more self run, with the aid of NPC's to continue training, or show that you finish classes, even if a time limit is some how placed on those.

Agreed. One of the major things that deters me from wanting to play a knight. I have no problem with waiting 9 months and RPing along the way if that's what it needs to ensure we have a good knight, but I don't think that it should be 9 months because knights in game just don't have time to train squires and play their character the way they want. I see more knights ending up training than roleplaying actually -being- a knight.

Personally I would also like to speak on races other than humans, aasimars and Elves getting a chance to be a paladin. I know Moradin and Yondalla have taken in FR lore. If this is just policy though, I would understand.

[Melusine]

I agree with the above that the reliance on other PCs being around to teach makes things very difficult, and along with the long training time, has made Paladins a very rare breed to find in game. I'd really like things to be more automated as well. While I love the idea of a Paladin having an actual Squire, and those two running about doing good deeds, people have a real life outside the game, and that makes it difficult for the current system to really work. Consider the ranger class, how they once were restricted by needing tokens to proceed with their training. It was quite hard to become a Ranger when none of the Master Rangers could be found, let alone a regular everyday ranger. It would be nice to see more paladins about in the Realms, and the long term dedication to make one makes this an undesirable class. It seems odd to have this as such an elite roleplay when one can create a paladin with no problem, no complicated training, when playing a tabletop game. I understands that the methods between gaining classes are going to be different between your average tabletop and a MUD such as ours, but it does certainly stand out in my mind. PC training to ensure the class is played well is a perfectly good thing, but I feel it's just too hard as it currently stands.

Another thing that I would like to see changed is that upon becoming a paladin, one receives spurs. I can't say I like spurs, never have. There's no reference that I've ever seen to having spurs in Forgotten Realms, but what could be a nice idea is to have options for the new paladin's choosing if spurs aren't that character's style. They could choose perhaps a shield with their god/dess' symbol, some form of breastplate, maybe even a fancy weapon. I once read a fantasy series where when one became a knight, it was referred to as winning their shield, and they literally got their shield when they achieved their rank, so I see that as a more noble thing than spurs. It'd mix things up a bit if we could have some variety to these objects, and bring a bigger variety to a class that already has a lot of similarities from PC to PC.

What I found good about it is the interaction between paladin and squire. I did love that part, when it was active and working on both sides (and I know I'm guilty of ditching the roleplay myself). I've seen young rangers take on a mentor through their younger years, even when no longer required to by code, perhaps a less formal system than we currently have for paladins could work afterall?

Edit to include: I also support more races being able to take on the paladin class, especially since there's canon examples, such as Alexan mentioned.

[Tyeslan]

I definitely agree with the call for more races to be allowed. There are many canon references of different types of knights, not to delude, or water down the paladin options in FK, but I believe it would bring more flavor. Dwarven knights might not be the knight in shining armor, or the well to-do paladin, but they have their dogma, and what they stand for.

[Nylo]

I don't personally play a squire, but I agree it'd be nice to see more races. Melusine, regarding the spurs - much of our knightly traditions and teachings are based on medieval European knights, including squires. I can't recall offhand ever reading about a squire or page in FR lore, and most knights are directly appointed by deities/priests. That is where the tradition of spurs come from.

[Gwain]

Spurs are important to a knight. A knight without a horse is just a well-bred footman.

[Tyeslan]

Yes, but while they might be based on traditional knights, would it still be available to have the option of picking something other than spurs? This might be a girly thing, shoot me for putting a gender(and my ignorance in thinking of spurs, and cowboys, not knights) on this, and while we might be great at riding horses as a knight, a shield, or another object might have a more proud meaning over spurs, with the achievement gained of becoming a paladin.

[Alexan]

Yes, but while they might be based on traditional knights, would it still be available to have the option of picking something other than spurs? This might be a girly thing, shoot me for putting a gender(and my ignorance in thinking of spurs, and cowboys, not knights) on this, and while we might be great at riding horses as a knight, a shield, or another object might have a more proud meaning over spurs, with the achievement gained of becoming a paladin.

LIKE A PRETTY BOW! No just kidding.

Maybe if they stick with it through the end, they can get a free item rename for a piece of armor or shield to show their deity, order, or the like?

[Harroghty]

I appreciate the discussion and I am following it without wanting to muck around too much in it. I will say that the three historical badges of office for a knight are the sword, spurs, and the adoubement (girtle). The key word being historical, I think that individual characters can defer from using them and work that out with their own church authorities but let's not allow modern sensibilities to muddle the setting.

[Melusine]

In a way though, using too much of reality's history for a Forgotten Realms-based game can muddle a setting as well. FR has similarities to the medieval era, mostly its technology level, but it also has so much more. Magic, fantasy, character classes, real dragons, and a lot less sexism. The medieval era was rather gross, less-than-ideal time. No one bathed, general knowledge regressed, not to mention their selection of food. Paladins and knights aren't quite the same thing, and I feel like it would be best to not limit ourselves in our Paladin class by things that happened in our own history with knights. There aren't references to spurs or girdles for paladins that I've seen yet in any source material, thus I see no harm in being more open about what objects a newly-made paladin could go with. What would be exciting is to have expanded common options available to anyone, and then if someone had reason to request anything different beyond these options, they could ask from there. At very least, a character could take the option to forgo the spurs and just not get anything.

That and making it easier to become a paladin are my two biggest suggestions to improve the class. It'd be really nice to see more paladins out and about, fighting for the greater good and their deity. After playing for many years, I can only think of eight off the top of my head, but can name many more of any other class. I imagine we could see more about if the reins were loosened, so to speak. My personal ideal would be a (mostly) automated system. It makes for less work for the Imms, and ensures a PC will always have a way to their goal. They won't have the roadblock of another PC disappearing from the game, and a paladin-hopeful could always find existing paladins to mentor them (when available), to take advantage of the paladin/squire relationship. The time length required feels like too much, I'd love to have it shortened down considerably.

[Benorf]

I have a Paladin in Training. Mind you I am very new at this (I have only done the first lesson), but this is my opinion.

At first, I was very intimidated by the idea. 9 months, plus needing to RP with real players... it seemed a bit much, but I figured It would be a lot of fun to play and I wanted to really immerse myself in the game. Now, after having one session with a Knight, I have found it to be much more important than I though.

The two hour roleplay session we had about Courtesy and the real-world physics of combat was pretty enlightening. Things were brought up that I was aware of, but had not put a lot of stock into. I feel like they will help me play my Paladin properly, as opposed to kinda waffling my way through the process and then just having a character with some divine spells.

I can, however, easily see how frustrating it could be if you were unable to make the times work to meet with someone. But I think if we remove the PC aspect entirely, we will have a tremendous influx of people who play paladins once every two weeks. Therefore, I don't think we should remove that aspect.

My suggestion would be, if people feel strongly about it, to make the system *mostly* automated. Maybe every 3 sessions have them meet with a Sponsor? I really don't think that RP aspect should be removed.

[Yvonne]

I can honestly say that the period of page to paladin with Yvonne has been my most enjoyable time in the game, ever. I loved the process and felt it helped me refine and define her. It helped me overcome my natural shyness and interact with more characters. The IC relationship she build up with her knight sponsor remains one of those she treasures most. Having never had a squire I can't speak for the flip side, but I imagine it is much the same. I honestly didn't mind the length of time it took, though I think I might be in the minority there?

For me, the main came after she was knighted - I suddenly felt a bit 'at sea' and left to my own devices, and I struggled with that a little. I was also slightly concerned the she, as a paragon of her Goddess, would be expected to be awesome in combat and, well, she's not.

But if I had to make changes? I love the fact that one is forced to interact with other players and I was fortunate to have an incredibly active knight sponsor who was also based in the same time zone as me - and one who's ethos was not too far removed from Yvonne's. However, I can understand that it must be deeply frustrating to rely on someone who is absent or who has difficulty marrying their play time with your own, or difficult if the characters' faiths and philosophies don't seem a good match... although this is hard to get around when there aren't many people at the top of the pyramid (and I am guilty of shirking my 'duties' in this respect!)

I quite like Benorf's suggestion; having certain 'gateway' points that require player interaction to move to the next phase of training. It could even be some sort of group event or meeting, rather than one on one sessions, if that helps move things along and add a bit of variety. I would hate to see this player interaction removed altogether, as it's what makes the process special and memorable.

[Alinor]

I've been absent for a while now due to real life things so I've fallen off from my character's lessons and RP. I will say though, that before my absence, the RP with my character's mentoring Knight has been very enjoyable and that I like the way the current process fosters interaction and has caused me to think more about my character's ideals and role and where to go with him. I think completely automating the process, while making it easier, would really take away from it. As others have said though, I can certainly see how it could be frustrating if a page can't find a Knight or the play times don't mesh together at all. As of right now, I don't really have any ideas to solve that problem.

As to the topic of spurs, I understand the thinking behind having them. While some of the churches, in certain cultures may very well have paladins that would seem like a typical medieval knight, I don't know if the same would always be true of all faiths, races, or cultures. As an example, I see Cormyr or Waterdeep as places where a paladin might be very much like the typical knight. But the dalelands, or Calimshan, may produce very different paladins. Demihuman races would again be very different. I don't see an elf and a dwarf (if allowed), going through training by churches of Corellon and Moradin, becoming paladins that would match real-world medieval knights. This is all just my personal opinion, and how I view the Forgotten Realms lore though.

[Briek]

The changes to the system over the years have been nothing but positive, but the crux of the issue still remains and that is finding the time to RP with your mentor and at this point I feel I should add an apology for my sporadic appearances over the last year or so.

In my view, roleplay with mentor is good let's keep it.

Let's remove the reliance on it to a certain degree. Is it possible to create a flag for accounts with paladin characters so that when a squire reaches a certain point in the automated lessons they get an echo saying " Squire X needs a check up" (let's say every three lessons this would happen) at this point the squire is unable to complete another lesson for double the normal gap (so one month) if nobody has contacted them in that time they can then continue with the automated lessons. I feel this still encourages roleplay but removes the absolute need for a knight to be present IC and as a result the squire gets stuck.

[Alexan]

The changes to the system over the years have been nothing but positive, but the crux of the issue still remains and that is finding the time to RP with your mentor and at this point I feel I should add an apology for my sporadic appearances over the last year or so.

In my view, roleplay with mentor is good let's keep it.

Let's remove the reliance on it to a certain degree. Is it possible to create a flag for accounts with paladin characters so that when a squire reaches a certain point in the automated lessons they get an echo saying " Squire X needs a check up" (let's say every three lessons this would happen) at this point the squire is unable to complete another lesson for double the normal gap (so one month) if nobody has contacted them in that time they can then continue with the automated lessons. I feel this still encourages roleplay but removes the absolute need for a knight to be present IC and as a result the squire gets stuck.

Thinking more on that, I know this would be a hard code change, but you could do it like a knowledge... and just make every skill up on the knowledge have to be done by the player.

This way not only is it a check-able process by player and staff on their own progress (at least OOCly), but kind of makes it a little more obvious. Then, I don't know if this would be done on total time the character was created or total time logged (both can be abused) but at least there would still be paladins to ensure someone just doesn't blow through the process by staying logged in/out all the time until their next skill up (depending on how they would abuse it, of course).

Can't automate the whole process in FK, but could streamline it more!

[Harroghty]

Okay. I have made some changes in response to this feedback. (Start here with this post and then look into the help files [linked from the post] for more info.)

The bottom line is that paladins will no longer be a monolith entity bound to one idiom (European chivalry and 2E D&D), a handful of races (demihumans are now fair game), and one location (the Halls of Justice will no longer be the only shop in town). The paladin class will be opened up to more than one school and those schools will have their own personalities and styles. What does this mean right now? Not a whole lot; there are no other schools built, but I will accept applications to build them and will work with builders interested. Please understand that this is a very varsity level project. This is not your first area in probably 99 of 100 cases.

Thanks for the feedback here. I have made some other short-term projects, Mask has made some hard-code changes, and I am planning some more soft-coded changes in the near future for Halls of Justice grads.

[Liandria]

That's awesome to hear. One of the things that really bothered me about the Paladin process was that it was all one size fits all.