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This has been coming up in conversation time and again but recently I wound up as witness to why it would make sense... I think we should open Fifth Attack to the non-fighter warrior classes. Paladins don't really hold their own too well and Rangers... well, I think Rangers could use some steps up even more. It's not exactly a powerful skill but for Rangers it would at least be a start in the right direction.

I was recently at a sparring match as well and will all due respect I would have to disagree. In this particular case the rules were set with no magic or special abilities to be used. Of course the fighter was going to come out on top against most within level range. Had spells been used there would have been a very different dynamic. When the point is to survive an actual fight you are going to use every ability at your disposal to do so. We also didn't get to see what an equal level rogue would have done with sneak attacks. There is more involved than what happens during a one on one situation between certain classes with very specific rules of engagement. Are the other fighter classes performing the role intended for them or is this a desire to see the playing field evened out for pvp purposes? I think these are two different things. When you say that paladins don't hold their own too well, against what opponents are you referring to? Other players or mobs?

They could use true holy weapons or the spell "holy avenger", or perhaps one of those feats that grants bonuses to hit or defence by spending turn undead attempts.

Morlath wrote:They could use true holy weapons or the spell "holy avenger", or perhaps one of those feats that grants bonuses to hit or defence by spending turn undead attempts.

My guess is that new feats aren't going to be well received by the older folks, because there won't be a refund on slots so they can benefit from them. However, new defensive or anti evil abilities and spells sound more appropriate than a 5th attack.

Baeus wrote:When you say that paladins don't hold their own too well, against what opponents are you referring to? Other players or mobs?

Players and Mobiles. With/Without spells. My other Main is a top-shelf fighter who really has no issue with many of the things Alitar struggles with. The issue plagues Rangers far more than it does Paladins. For Paladins it would be a slight adjustment that put them on a bit closer terms with fighters. For Rangers it would be a start on the right path, but Rangers really need more than just a little skill.

As for the spells/feats, many of the better Paladin spells (Holy Weapon for good example) are not in game, and many of those that are simply don't function as they would in canon (Magic Weapon).

Rangers might use the 3.5 favored enemy progression and a cute animal companion

Rangers already get the ability to claim animals to make animal companions. However, few mobs are claimable, even fewer allow you to mount them, and often they will not leave the area they are found in. Plus this counts against the two slots you have for a pet

Rangers do need more animal companions out there. I've haven't seen many in my years of playing. It's mostly what we can find to buy as companions and mounts. Perhaps making a special slot for animal companions for rangers if it doesn't take hard coding?

Back on topic of the OP... I agree that fifth attack is a good step in the right direction. Attacks/round do not exist in PnP, and I see no reason that adding this skill to rangers and paladins would do any harm. The idea is balance so that paladins and rangers have equal ability to stay alive and keep doing damage. (not balance in PvP, this is not a PvP MUD and we are not here to balance classes to see who can fight who on even terms). Even a ranger who has invested feat points into the full dual wield tree will only gain 1 attack/round by adding fifth attack, giving him/her a total of 8 attacks/round potential.

Again, a step in the right direction. Let's talk about fifth attack, not ranger companions - there are other threads and the opportunity to open a new one regarding it if you so desire.

In all honesty I don't see why paladins shouldn't get it.

I concur with Morlath and Aldren. They are a martial class. Just one that is on a more strict road than the Average sword and board fighter. Even the occasional agility fighter that uses lighter arms and dual weapons. They train there body and martial skills just as much as they hone their faith. I could also see it with rangers. They are warriors more on par with the wild paths or the dangerous places not many would tread they tend to do so alone. It would help with some balance issues since they lack some of there class mechanics in game as well.

Agreed. A fifth attack for rangers/paladins won't be a huge difference, especially since they don't get the benefit of the feats, making it unlikely it will often land.

Personally I think making their 1-4 more effective would be a better solution, and less to balance after the addition of 5th attack does nothing for them. Even well-built fighters face little to no accuracy on their 5th attack, and it's largely a bonus "luck" mechanic.

I think front-loading the damage against specific enemies--chaotic or evil for paladin, racial or +petdamage for rangers--through automatic features/spells (retroactive pls) would be both more interesting and effective.

This is true. I would much rather rangers get an effective and threatening favored enemy and paladins get a spell like Holy Sword than just giving them 5th attack. It would definitely give them more flavor.