Forgotten Kingdoms Forums

Below is the current policy stated by Forgotten Kingdoms.

Bots, scripts and triggers
The use of bots or scripts, or any other means by which a character becomes autonomous and takes any action whatsoever without human input is strictly forbidden on Forgotten Kingdoms. Any character found to be operating in this fashion will be punished. There is no place for bots or scripts on a roleplay MUD like ours. See the rules helpfile for more information.
The use of triggers or any other automated response mechanism that causes your character to take an action without you (the player) doing something is also forbidden. Particularly egregious are triggers which give you an unfair advantage over other players: for example, one that picks up your weapon automatically after your PC has been disarmed; however, this extends to all things, including mundane tasks like mining and responding to greetings.
The use of programs that allow you to walk from one destination to another is not allowed on this MUD.
Triggers may be used to call your attention to events, and macros and aliases used to help you more quickly respond to the game, provided they require you to actually do something and do not cause your PC to take any action without input from you, the player



The very first paragraph says “The use of bots or scripts, or any other means by which a character becomes autonomous and takes any action whatsoever without human input is strictly forbidden on Forgotten Kingdoms.”, which is defined as having autonomy;not subject to control from outside; independent:
This is a fair assessment. The idea of having someone set up a bot, or script that allows them to get up from their computer while the script runs to level their character or otherwise increase some kind of stat for their character is not fair to everyone else in the game who actually puts in the time to increase those same stats.

The very next paragraph states: “The use of triggers or any other automated response mechanism that causes your character to take an action without you (the player) doing something is also forbidden.” This too is also a very important statement, re-enforcing the exact same thing as the first paragraph said with no variation. The rest of the paragraph continues on to say “Particularly egregious are triggers which give you an unfair advantage over other players: for example, one that picks up your weapon automatically after your PC has been disarmed; however, this extends to all things, including mundane tasks like mining and responding to greetings.”
Let us point out that it says “Unfair advantage over other players”. Lets say hypothetically, you have a trigger set up to put gold in a pack after you loot a corpse, are you gaining an advantage over another player? Perhaps, but what if you are grinding by yourself and not in a group, are you still gaining an advantage over another character? The answer is simply no, you are not. Regardless if you have a trigger set up to put gold in a pack after looting or to automatically attack a mob (NPC) that you have been killing for hours isn't giving you an advantage. Sure, you may get that piece of gold in your pack a whopping 1 millisecond before someone else who didn't have a trigger and pushed a button instead. The end result would still be the same and that is the gold gets into the pack or the mob gets killed. You do not gain more gold in this manner, you do not gain more experience in this manner. The paragraph makes a particular statement about mundane tasks like mining and responding to greetings. I would like to believe that everyone has a basic grasp on common sense. To increase your mining skill requires that you (the PC) increase the skill just like every other skill that your character has and responding to greetings is just common sense. Nobody wants to speak to an automated answering machine in a role-playing game.

Next, a single sentence stands alone in the creators rules. “The use of programs that allow you to walk from one destination to another is not allowed on this MUD.” Although most should take this as common sense, it amazes me how more and more people do not actually possess this particular skill in life. If you are going to play the game, then play the game and don't let a machine or code play the game for you. If you do that, then what's the point in playing at all?

Finally, you will notice that the creator of the trigger rules then contradicts himself by saying “Triggers may be used to call your attention to events, and macros and aliases used to help you more quickly respond to the game, provided they require you to actually do something and do not cause your PC to take any action without input from you, the player”.
Respond to the game? What does that mean? Well, perhaps my version of responding to the game is that of picking up gold and putting it in a pack, or auto attacking a mob. There are various ways that these rules can be interpreted. If you are going to make a rule about triggers then make it very short simple and to the point. Simply say “No use of triggers, scripts or bots, PERIOD!”

Allowing the use of triggers can be good but of course you run the risk of some people out there taking advantage. So how do you mitigate that? Simple, you either state you allow the use of triggers, or you don't. You do not make a gray area for people to interpret as they see and then try to ban them when they follow your rules word for word. The problem with these rules is that they are obviously not clearly defined. There seems to be an unspoken rule about what is and isn't allowed. At the end of the day, if a person is grinding on their own, killing mobs away from other people, not associating with other PC's then maybe that is their characters background. Maybe they don't like people. Maybe they just want to get on a game and kill stuff. Maybe they don't want to associate with other people. No where in any rule book does it say that you, as a PC, MUST talk to other people. The game itself is already difficult because without talking to other people, you can't find trade quests or where objects are. Which can lead us into a whole other argument about how the lack of ability to find things out for yourself is next to impossible. So the game is designed to interact with other people. I say, that if a PC wants to make it more difficult on him/herself by not interacting with others, let them do it. I also say, that the use of triggers when by yourself and the triggers are not affecting anyone else, anywhere in the game at any time should be allowed. The PC is the one who loses the effect of the game by using triggers.

There is another aspect you could look at the use of triggers. First off, you don't know who the PC or what is going on around the PC outside of the computer. What if you were killing something and all of a sudden, you had an important phone call or knock at the door. You can't pause the game and tell it to hold on to make sure you don't die. These rules as stated, could also be implied as being discriminatory. Outside of the computer, you do not know what the person's mental state is or their attention span. Maybe the use of triggers allows the person to actually engage in the game and any story line created. By limiting this ability, now you take that away from the PC.

In Conclusion, the use of triggers should be allowed in my opinion on the basis if a person is by themselves. As long as the trigger does not affect any other player in the game anywhere while the trigger is in effect and that any incidents involving triggers should be dealt with on a case by case scenario. I firmly believe in the the rule “Different strokes for different folks”. This is because not all situations are the same. Everyone is not the same and people look and view things differently all of the time.

I believe you are grasping straws, and reading this your own way to interpret how to abuse triggers. The rule is the rule, there is no gray area when it comes to this. If we must, ban the use of them all together(instead of the minor trigger allowed that shows you when you improve, or receive a tell during combat) but as it states strictly forbidden, means not allowed. I vote a major no to triggers. If you cannot sit, and type the commands yourself, then don't play is pretty simple.

Diamedeas wrote:Finally, you will notice that the creator of the trigger rules then contradicts himself by saying “Triggers may be used to call your attention to events, and macros and aliases used to help you more quickly respond to the game, provided they require you to actually do something and do not cause your PC to take any action without input from you, the player”.
Respond to the game? What does that mean? Well, perhaps my version of responding to the game is that of picking up gold and putting it in a pack, or auto attacking a mob. There are various ways that these rules can be interpreted. If you are going to make a rule about triggers then make it very short simple and to the point. Simply say “No use of triggers, scripts or bots, PERIOD!”

I'm going to explain real quick what that means... There are triggers that do nothing more than make a 'boop' sound or highlight certain text so you will notice it. Those are the exception outlined here. As for 'your version of responding to the game', it strictly says it cannot make your PC take an action that you yourself did not input. There really isn't room for fudging here. There are no gray areas. Triggers are forbidden. I very much agree with the rule. Changing it would allow for gray areas. Right now, there are no gray areas. No triggers allowed is not complicated. Simple alerts are the ONE exception, and those are things that are 100% user side and don't impact your character even remotely. Things like a 'boop' sound when you receive a tell.

Diamedeas wrote:In Conclusion, the use of triggers should be allowed in my opinion on the basis if a person is by themselves. As long as the trigger does not affect any other player in the game anywhere while the trigger is in effect and that any incidents involving triggers should be dealt with on a case by case scenario. I firmly believe in the the rule “Different strokes for different folks”. This is because not all situations are the same. Everyone is not the same and people look and view things differently all of the time.

I stand on the other side of the fence and feel 100% that we should continue to disallow the use of triggers, scripts and bots (apart from our one current exception). They give an unfair advantage both in short term and in long term. Just my thoughts on it all.

I have added to the helpfile in hopes it is even more clear now:

* Triggers may be used to call your attention to events, and macros and
aliases used to help you more quickly respond to the game, provided they
require you to actually do something and do not cause your PC to take any
action without input from you, the player.

This means a trigger that would capture text to another window, or make a
sound on your computer to altert you of a specific action happening to your
character so you may manually tab to the screen and input a command.

An example of this is a command to capture your tells and copy them to a
second window, so that while in combat your character would not miss
something they would hear clearly.

As per help cheating:

- using a script or triggers to enhance your characters performance

The common argument is "My trigger is only doing something I would do." - but you are not doing it. That is what makes it something that enhances your character. Your character is doing something automatically that it would not naturally do. That is enhanced.

Because of this, you are able to type in no commands for as long as you feel, gaining you exp, skill, coin, hours and kismet. From a trigger as simple as 'kill dummy'.

Further, if you have an emergency or "a short attention span" and distract from the screen you are holding an area from other players' use while gaining all of the above without even actually playing.

There are always times we will be tediously killing. It is a roleplay mud but some hours there are not many opportunities for adventuring parties or roleplay. Sometimes we're just in a bad mood and want to be alone. Personally, when I am tediously killing I use an alias. Here is an example:

alias a put all.coin pack & kill dummy

This stacks my commands and alleviates me of typing multiple things, but makes sure I am in the game doing the work for what my character and account are gaining. I never miss roleplay opportunities, immortal attention or potential roleplay events because I am constantly tabbing back to hit enter on the 'a' stored in my input box.

I'd say hitting enter is pretty easy - and if it's still too much an all text game might not be the best place!

As someone who put in the entire thousands-of-hours grind to level, skill-up, and fund multiple characters, I think combat triggers make light of the commitment this game takes to master from a coded aspect. If you're going to deny the RP side of things and favor the code, at least respect it by putting in the work it demands.

As for this "is there conflict in the rules" mystery? I don't think so. It's obvious that the "triggers" and "scripts" that are not allowed are ones that do things for you--sure, the goblin would die if you were commanding your character, and sure, the gold would get picked up if you were commanding your character.. but you're not, so it shouldn't, and that's the bottom line.

Right, so, couple things.

Perhaps, but what if you are grinding by yourself and not in a group, are you still gaining an advantage over another character? The answer is simply no, you are not.

The answer is simply yes, yes you are. This isn't a single player experience, your character doesn't exist outside of everyone else. In any scenario, when you cheat or break the rules in a static world that other characters exist in, you're negatively impacting them. Your ill-gotten gains make your character richer/stronger/etc. than you otherwise would be in relation to those around you. That's why the rules say not to do it, and not "Don't do this, except like if you feel like it man."

Finally, you will notice that the creator of the trigger rules then contradicts himself by saying “Triggers may be used to call your attention to events, and macros and aliases used to help you more quickly respond to the game, provided they require you to actually do something and do not cause your PC to take any action without input from you, the player”.
Respond to the game? What does that mean?

So, you'll notice two different lines here: 'Triggers may be used to call your attention to events'. So, something like a sound trigger to beep when a tell is sent for example, or the tell copying trigger. Following this, 'macros and aliases used to help you more quickly respond to the game'. This second line doesn't apply to triggers, and that should be immediately obvious from the very first line of the helpfile:

The use of bots or scripts, or any other means by which a character becomes
autonomous and takes any action whatsoever without human input is strictly
forbidden on Forgotten Kingdoms.

Macros and aliases that allow you to more quickly respond to the game could be something like an alias that sends 'kill jerkmob' to the game when you type 'jerk'. It still requires human input, it only shortens the amount of typing you must do to get there.

There is another aspect you could look at the use of triggers. First off, you don't know who the PC or what is going on around the PC outside of the computer. ...

I'm going to assume based on the "What if" in this paragraph that this is purely hypothetical, and you've not experienced the situation yet - I know I haven't. But assuming that you do, you would either A. Have needed to plan very specific triggers for whatever particular situation you've gotten yourself in, or B. take the time to write them up on the fly, and if the latter is the case, you can simply log out and be safe.

If it's a player-driven scenario, you can go to osay. 'Hey I have to walk away for a bit, my dinner is burning/child is crying/cat is on fire'. They'll understand. If it's just making your way through hordes of NPCs, there's a bunch of ways to handle that situation. Just log out as stated above, backtrack to safety, carry a potion of recall with you, etc. You're never put in a situation where it's either cheat or die.

In Conclusion, the use of triggers should be allowed in my opinion on the basis if a person is by themselves. ...

It's not a matter of 'different people have different play styles', it's a matter of us all playing in the same world and, for the sake of balance between players, there need to be a handful of rules that we all agree not to break. Not using triggers to mindlessly slaughter mobiles is one such rule. The game is an RP mud first. If you're using triggers, you don't need to be at the computer. If you're not at the computer, other characters will see you running around and not responding to them. It's nonsensical ICly, and it's unfair to those around you.

I've played on muds where the use of triggers and botting is allowed, some of the roleplay was great and some of it was not. Sometimes rp didn't even happen because people were on "botting" granted they were still vulnerable to the game and environ so they could be stolen from, or killed. Triggers don't really reflect those "thousands" and yes I know players with thousand old characters. They weren't botting, they weren't using triggers. They put in the man power and dedication to the character. It reflects in their character, I mean really lets think how old Gwain is...is there such a number? I don't think so. I have never used triggers on fk, although there are ways to set aliases up to allow you to "Respond easier" to the game, for the sake of your tired fingers, and laziness those are there. Nobody wants to type out everything, unless during dialogue then perhaps. Althasizor hit the head on the nail talking about this being a world, its equal. Everyone plays by the same rules, although I want to say why the hell did I not know about these cool triggers with sound. It might have woke me up those countless times I dozed off with the laptop in my lap. Just sayin, you guys are holding out!
Back to triggers, you know those people "botting" alone well they were missing out on RP. There is a reason you get more xp grouping in D&D, this game is to teach group work. Characters are made by players, and they are supported by other characters as friends, enemies, or just fellow adventurers. Those characters are in turn other players, Respect players that put work into their characters, and in turn they'll respect you. Characters aren't players, sometimes they might reflect the player a bit in ways but often not. Rules are there to allow a harmony and order, and yes at times they are often twisted and manipulated. Sometimes they are just viewed differently only because we view the world simply as that "As we want to see it." to meet our own ends. Fortunately Forgotten Kingdoms has a community and they do listen, and interact with each other. Some outside of the game, some have never met another player but just play because of how awesome EVERYONE is here. We make this game, however we want it to be. We affect story, working with each other. When we start automating those characters, the blur between NPC and PC comes in because did a script mine all those long hours then wake up and mine some more while you were watching Battlestar Galatica or did you...? I didn't have a problem with triggers, but I'm a rather laid back individual. On Forgotten Kingdoms though, the characters are solid, and equal from the start. Well except that Luck thing, but that's a long story. Gotta go!

Honestly if you're going to play the game play the game. I don't want my hard work and time lessened because you can't be bothered to pay attention to the computer for a few hours.

I'm writing this as I think, so I apologize if it's not very clear.

99% of the time, I absolutely agree that triggers to automate are wrong and should never, ever be allowed.

Sinario:
Person is doing something creative, making something for example. They get finished. There are several people in the same work area. Their item gets completed, but is on the ground instead of in inventory for whatever reason. Somebody else picks it up instead because the person doing the creating didn't notice their work was done.

Extremely gray area, and what I'm referring to isn't just some careless person who wasn't paying attention. I'm referring to someone who works super hard to follow text, but misses things because of any given situation. Triggers in almost any situation are absolutely out of the question, and yet . . .

. . . and yet I have compassion for people with disabilities or other needs who perhaps deserve that extra bit of consideration. This could mean anything from slow typing due to fine motor problems, blindness and simply not being able to hear the spoken words quickly enough to react, slow reaction time period because of one thing or other. I feel like I'm forgetting people, but my point is, for them, "if you can't be bothered then don't play," is a huge slap in the face, and that sort of response is like suggesting that one size fits all in how people learn and think and react and process. This simply is not true.

Should games bend over backwards for one when they could be helping the entire playerbase? Likely no. But there are times when some consideration for a special situation should possibly be considered.

I knew of someone on another game who had some sort of disability that caused them to respond very slowly. Most quickly-scrolling things were off-limits without help as it was, so they just did what they could. The danger is, anyone could have said anything about themselves, and in an online environment who is to know they're being honest or not?

I'm not throwing this out with any ideas for a solution. I do hope to add to the discussion, however, and perhaps give anyone reading a chance to think of this in a slightly different way.

There's a difference between unfair advantages and allowing a genuine, true need to be helped in some way so that it's maybe just a little easier.

Or maybe not. Maybe it really is all up to the people who have need to fend for themselves. The latter makes me cringe a little, though.

The policy is very clear. If it makes you an automated bot and allows you to walk away without needing to hit keys then you aren't allowed to use it regardless of disability. People will usually wait and you can let them know you are slow responding by in game means.

Tyeslan wrote: The policy is very clear. If it makes you an automated bot and allows you to walk away without needing to hit keys then you aren't allowed to use it regardless of disability. People will usually wait and you can let them know that you are slow responding by in game means.

I agree completely. It's simply not fair to others if you're using triggers to do things even of the sort Tiyari mentioned. I have never had a problem with someone else being impatient or complaining that I'm too slow. Everyone I've met on FK is very cool and very understanding. You just need to be comfortable enough to let them know that you might be a bit slow at certain things.

Regarding the specific sort of situation Tiyari brought up, I would only remind that the rules are also clear about picking items up when other people are in the room. It might not be yours, so just check before you take it. No biggie.