Illusionary Pit vs Mass Hold Person

[Valyn]

Recently I've been involved in a few situations where Illusionary Pit is being used in a way that seems to outright go against game balance, both in FK and in the actual 3.5 definitions of the spells.

Both Illusionary Pit and Mass Hold Person should render the person immobile and are mind affecting vs will save. However, Illusionary Pit, despite being lower level, has a much longer duration and is much more effective than Mass Hold Person (or even Mass Hold Monster).

Here are links to the spells:

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Mass_Hold_Person

http://www.maleficarium.info/spell/DnD% ... _1062.html

Main differences between how these are executed in game and how they are written in D&D:

1: MOST IMPORTANT: If I am flying Illusionary Pit should have no effect on me! This should be a given but seems to not be included in the spell code.

2: Illusionary Pit's duration is supposed to be Concentration +1 round/level. Mass Hold Person's duration is supposed to be 1 round per level.

Currently, in game, the duration of Illusory Pit seems to last an in game hour or longer. Changing this to work like clairvoyance or arcane eye where the caster must hit "revert" to activate the duration timer would be nice and balance this spell out quite a bit.

3: From the text on Illusionary Pit:

An attack on an affected creature frees it from the effect of the illusion but leaves it stunned for 1 round. Likewise, when the spell ends, creatures that believed they were falling are stunned for 1 round.

I'm not quite sure how this works in game, but does attacking a character affected by Illusionary Pit break them out of it and knock the stun down to 1 round?

I think these changes to Illusionary Pit will be helpful to balancing out a spell which has been used quite a bit in recent PVP and seems much more powerful than any other immobilization spell in game currently.

[Alitar]

As it stands, the spell does not free the target when they are attacked. This has been repeatedly taken advantage of for easy kills, it seems. I didn't know it was supposed to release players who are hit, this is an interesting revelation.

[dolifer]

Wow. Interesting indeed. I always thought there was something off about the pit...

The spell's dropping at an attack would make a *huge* difference with this spell. Probably not going to use it again until something further is said on whether the current effect was intended...

Quick question since it was briefly mentioned here: Mass hold monster holds non-monsters (e.g., persons, animals) very well--probably better than do the spells intended for those targets. I've asked about this IC in the past, and it was suggested that this, too, might be intentional, but it doesn't seem right.

[Valyn]

Mass hold monster affects "creatures" which is undefined by D&D, however most people interpret it as anything. Mass hold person is essentially being able to stop anything in an area in place with magic (provided it fails the save). Humanoids get hit by hold person, everything gets hit by hold monster.

But, short summary of proposals on how to rebalance it so it's not more powerful than a level 9 spell:

Flying should probably make you immune to an illusionary pit
The duration is supposed to be very short if the spellcaster not concentrating, kind of like a one shot knockdown/stun/bash, but maybe a better middle ground to the 5 minutes IRL duration could be met
It should be dispelled when subjects are attacked

[Zorinar]

The Pit is a tough spell to be sure. It is an auto win if it fires off, then then again so is Earth Reaver. Flying doesn't seem to protect against that one either.

[Alitar]

Earth reaver stuns only one round, Pit stuns 5 irl minutes.

[Korwin]

"Illusion
Range: Ranged Area
Target: Defensive
Syntax: c 'illusory pit'

The spell attempts to fool the victims into thinking a deep pit has opened
up underneath them, at that they are falling endlessly into it. This effect
immobilizes the victims as they flail and scream. Flying characters are not
affected by the spell, and a successful save means the victim sees through"


5 RL minutes is a vast exaggeration, usually lasts 30 second to a minute, I've timed it, extended cast and regular

Many creatures are also immune to illusion, and what is the reasoning behind damaging the target negating the spell?

[Alitar]

"Illusion
Range: Ranged Area
Target: Defensive
Syntax: c 'illusory pit'

The spell attempts to fool the victims into thinking a deep pit has opened
up underneath them, at that they are falling endlessly into it. This effect
immobilizes the victims as they flail and scream. Flying characters are not
affected by the spell, and a successful save means the victim sees through"


5 RL minutes is a vast exaggeration, usually lasts 30 second to a minute, I've timed it, extended cast and regular

Many creatures are also immune to illusion, and what is the reasoning behind damaging the target negating the spell?

I could see someone being knocked back to reality by a slap in the face quite easily, a strike of any sort has a similar impact. I believe that is what the intended implication of it was. No doubt balance played some role in it as well.
As for it lasting 30 seconds to a minute, 5 irl minutes isn't a vast exaggeration, it is a moderate one. I would estimate 2-3 if I were to make as close an approximation as I can, but I won't pretend to have measured it. It could well be 30 seconds to a minute, but that is certainly quite long enough for a player to be finished off from 100%HP making the timeline somewhat moot in the end considering it is intended to be cut short by stoppage of concentration(plus short duration) or damage.

[dolifer]

In my own experience, I have cast pits which have indeed exceeded one-minute durations and higher. The duration could depend on several things, so perhaps this will not be the case for every wizard. Still, even fifteen seconds is enough time to do massive damage, if not kill outright, let alone a minute or more.

Definitely would like to see that spell end when victims are stricken, or a drastically reduced duration, at the very least.

[Zorinar]

Illusory pit definitely lasts more than one minute, long enough to destroy the foe at the casters leisure. However, this is fine, as wizards should have powerful spells on them but there should be some defensive abilities to counter it. For example, Fly and Mind Blank seem perfect for this. Stone Skin and Stone Body should probably give a bonus to save against earth attacks like Earth Gensai get naturally. Earth Reaver, as pointed out in my earlier post, is an even more unbalanced spell as nothing can stop it. It does great damage and stuns the foe every round you cast it no matter what buffs they have on. Once you start casting it, it is Auto win against an entire group without any hope at all of surviving and they will probably not get a single hit in against you if you know what you are doing and know how to time your spells in a round. Using it during a hostile PK/spar is just in absolute poor taste as it is clearly not adjusted properly. At least you get to save against the Pit which is why it is slightly more tolerable. My characters save more often than not against the Pit, but hardly ever at all against the Reaver. The hold spells seem to be easily saved against and quickly broken as I believe you get a chance every round to break out, in fact hold person is a bit too quick to break perhaps. I think most of the issues would be resolved if, at least, fly protected you from both spells as I believe is supposed to be the case.

[Alitar]

I think earth reaver has been fixed. It allows saves and on PCs, I've yet to see it actually stun. As for fly and mind blank for illusory pit- that is part of the problem. The wards for it just don't seem to be working.

[Gwain]

If its being abused for pvp and pkill purposes, just disable it until its fixed. We had bladebarrier at one time, probably the only offensive shield a cleric could get, it had a flaw and some players kept abusing it to gain unfair advantages in pvp situations, it was removed. If illusionary pit or mass hold keep being abused for easy pkills and the abuse is commonly known, remove them from the game until they can be fixed.

[Areia]

Disable illusory pit, please.

This suggestion doesn't actually come from the most recent posts in that other thread--I've been meaning to suggest this for ages now.

Especially lately, maybe just because it's wizard season again, illusory pit is being way overused and abused in PvP and PvE alike. It's meant to be a holy-crap-we're-all-going-to-die-let's-GTFO spell, essentially timestop in function with a chance to fail through the will save (thus its lower level). But I've only ever seen one other wizard beside myself who uses it for that. Whether it's due to mallicious intent or innocent ignorance, the latter being not at all uncommon as I remember when I started out here too I didn't really think too hard about what might be bugged or not, it's utterly broken to the point that you'd be better off prepping five heightened pits over any other ninth level spell in the game, let alone even weaker ones. Being the owner of a long-played illusionist myself, I would be hurt no less than anyone else by the loss. Maybe that might add a little weight to the suggestion.

[Hrosskell]

Edited because my fury, while righteous, was not properly formatted.

A detailed opinion is likely to come, but for now, I will say that removing a tool from the wizard's kit that has highly accessible counters AND a save is down-right ridiculous.

[Areia]

Wow, alright, well, thanks. You know, maybe I'll just do that. I sort of get really tired of trying to be super nice and helpful and friendly every day to everyone who lets me only to be told to "bugger off"? Well argued, Hrosskell.

[Llanthyr]

I don't like how something is done therefore it should be disabled.

How is using something in a wizard's toolkit "overused and abused"? People are free to prep what they wish to, that's the beauty of wizards. They don't have to play the way you want them to.

[Areia]

Re: Llanthyr

It's funny. I'm actually not suggesting it because it hurts me. I've actually never been the victim of illusory pit either in PvP or PvE, since most of my PCs tend to have fairly high Will saves. Thing is, I never suggest something just for me. In fact, I almost never do anything on FK just for me, despite that somehow someone always finds a way to make me out to be the bad guy. Ask Skylar, Saevitia, Sethrin, Ibrech, Falgorn, just to name a few of those taken advantage of with Illusory pit off the top of my head, how fair this spell is. Ask Mynaheir too how one-sided I am on this issue. She'll be able to tell you more than most that I'm as quick to admonish IC and OOC friends over it as I am IC enemies.

It has a will save, yes. Flying makes you immune, yes. Let's see what else it does. The below notated log is long, but I think it would be helpful for everyone to see exactly how this spell works.

An earthstone glows briefly.
A candle glows briefly.
a goblin captain falls to the ground and screams, convinced that she stumbled into a pit!
a goblin elite falls to the ground and screams, convinced that he stumbled into a pit!
a goblin berserker sees through your illusion.
a goblin elite falls to the ground and screams, convinced that he stumbled into a pit!

[round 1]
You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.


You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.


Your claw stabs a goblin berserker's chest.
a goblin berserker is slightly scratched.


Your claw deeply penetrates a goblin berserker's right arm.
a goblin berserker has a few small cuts.


Your bite stabs a goblin berserker's chest.
a goblin berserker has a few small cuts.


You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.


You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.


You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.

k m
You approach a goblin captain and prepare to engage her in combat!

[round 2. Note that the first round was normal damage only because the goblin being attacked at the time happened to resist.]
You score a critical hit!
Your claw penetrates a goblin captain's chest.
a goblin captain has a couple of severe gashes.


You score a critical hit!
Your claw drills in to a goblin captain's head.
a goblin captain is covered in cuts and bruises.


You score a critical hit!
Your bite deeply penetrates a goblin captain's chest.
a goblin captain is badly injured.


You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.


You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.

[round 3]
You score a critical hit!
Your claw deeply penetrates a goblin captain's chest.
a goblin captain is bleeding from several injuries.

combatmode -extend

You score a critical hit!
Your claw drives deeply in to a goblin captain's left leg.
a goblin captain is bleeding freely.


You score a critical hit!
Your bite deeply penetrates a goblin captain's chest.
a goblin captain has several traumatic wounds.

Extend spell mode set to off.


You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.


You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.

cast 'mirror image'
You prepare to cast 'mirror image'...

[round 4]
You begin to chant.


You are surrounded by mirror images of yourself.


You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.

combatmode +extend
Extend spell mode set to on.

[round 5]
You score a critical hit!
Your claw deeply penetrates a goblin captain's chest.
a goblin captain has several traumatic wounds.


You score a critical hit!
Your claw drives deeply in to a goblin captain's head.
a goblin captain has blood gushing from several grievous wounds.


You score a critical hit!
Your bite deeply penetrates a goblin captain's abdomen.
a goblin captain has blood gushing from several grievous wounds.

config +prompt
config -prompt
Ok.

96% 78 96%Ok.


You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.


You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.

[round 6]
You score a critical hit!
Your claw deeply penetrates a goblin captain's chest.
a goblin captain is leaking heart-blood.


You score a critical hit!
Your claw drives deeply in to a goblin captain's left leg.
a goblin captain has suffered mortal injury.


You score a critical hit!
Your bite deeply penetrates a goblin captain's abdomen.
a goblin captain has suffered mortal injury.


A goblin berserker destroys one of your images.
You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.


You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.


You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.

[round 7]
You score a critical hit!
Your claw goes straight through a goblin captain's head.
a goblin captain is slowly bleeding to death.


You score a critical hit!
Your claw drives deeply in to a goblin captain's left arm.


You score a critical hit!
Your bite drives deeply in to a goblin captain's left leg.
A goblin captain is DEAD!
You get 3 gold coins from the corpse of a goblin captain.
You get 3 silver coins from the corpse of a goblin captain.
You get 9 copper coins from the corpse of a goblin captain.


You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.


You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.

k m

You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.


You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.

You approach a goblin elite and prepare to engage him in combat!

[round 8]
You score a critical hit!
Your claw drives deeply in to a goblin elite's right leg.
a goblin elite has a few small cuts.


You score a critical hit!
Your claw drives deeply in to a goblin elite's right arm.
a goblin elite is badly bruised.


You score a critical hit!
Your bite drives deeply in to a goblin elite's head.
a goblin elite has several minor wounds.


You attack a goblin berserker as he opens his guard to bash you.
Your claw stabs a goblin berserker's abdomen.
a goblin berserker is badly bruised.
A goblin berserker destroys one of your images.
You step aside as a goblin berserker tries to bash into you!

[round 9]
You score a critical hit!
Your claw drives deeply in to a goblin elite's right arm.
a goblin elite has a couple of severe gashes.


You score a critical hit!
Your claw drills in to a goblin elite's left arm.
a goblin elite is covered in cuts and bruises.


You score a critical hit!
Your bite penetrates a goblin elite's chest.
a goblin elite is badly injured.


You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.


You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.

[round 10]
You score a critical hit!
Your claw drives deeply in to a goblin elite's left leg.
a goblin elite is bleeding from several injuries.


You score a critical hit!
Your claw drives deeply in to a goblin elite's right arm.
a goblin elite is bleeding freely.


You score a critical hit!
Your bite deeply penetrates a goblin elite's abdomen.
a goblin elite is bleeding freely.


A goblin berserker destroys one of your images.
You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.


You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.


You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.


You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.

[round 11]
You score a critical hit!
Your claw drills in to a goblin elite's head.
a goblin elite has several traumatic wounds.


You score a critical hit!
Your claw drills in to a goblin elite's left leg.
a goblin elite has several traumatic wounds.


You score a critical hit!
Your bite deeply penetrates a goblin elite's abdomen.
a goblin elite has blood gushing from several grievous wounds.


A goblin berserker destroys one of your images.
You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.


You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.

[round 12]
You score a critical hit!
Your claw drives deeply in to a goblin elite's head.
a goblin elite has blood gushing from several grievous wounds.


You score a critical hit!
Your claw penetrates a goblin elite's chest.
a goblin elite is leaking heart-blood.


You score a critical hit!
Your bite penetrates a goblin elite's chest.
a goblin elite is leaking heart-blood.


A goblin berserker destroys one of your images.
You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.

[round 13]
You score a critical hit!
Your claw drives deeply in to a goblin elite's left leg.
a goblin elite has suffered mortal injury.


You score a critical hit!
Your claw penetrates a goblin elite's chest.
a goblin elite has suffered mortal injury.


You score a critical hit!
Your bite deeply penetrates a goblin elite's abdomen.
a goblin elite is slowly bleeding to death.


A goblin berserker destroys one of your images.
You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.


You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.

[round 14]
You score a critical hit!
Your claw perforates a goblin elite's abdomen.
a goblin elite is close to death.


You score a critical hit!
Your claw deeply penetrates a goblin elite's abdomen.
A goblin elite is mortally wounded, and will die soon, if not aided.


You score a critical hit!
Your bite perforates a goblin elite's abdomen.
A goblin elite is DEAD!
You get 3 gold coins from the corpse of a goblin elite.
You get 3 silver coins from the corpse of a goblin elite.
You get 8 copper coins from the corpse of a goblin elite.


You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.


A goblin berserker destroys one of your images.
You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.

k m
You do your best!

[round 15, woops attacking the one that resisted again]
Your claw penetrates a goblin berserker's abdomen.
a goblin berserker has several minor wounds.


Your claw perforates a goblin berserker's left leg.
a goblin berserker has several minor wounds.


A goblin berserker steps back, out of range of your jaws.

k 2.m
You approach a goblin elite and prepare to engage him in combat!


You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.


You hear the sound of footsteps from the west.

[round 16, against that last goblin who failed to resist]
You score a critical hit!
Your claw penetrates a goblin elite's chest.
a goblin elite has a few small cuts.


You score a critical hit!
Your claw penetrates a goblin elite's chest.
a goblin elite is badly bruised.


You score a critical hit!
Your bite drills in to a goblin elite's left arm.
a goblin elite has several minor wounds.


You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.


You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.

[round 17]
You score a critical hit!
Your claw drills in to a goblin elite's head.
a goblin elite has a couple of severe gashes.


You score a critical hit!
Your claw drills in to a goblin elite's left leg.
a goblin elite is covered in cuts and bruises.


You score a critical hit!
Your bite penetrates a goblin elite's chest.
a goblin elite is badly injured.

[round 18]
You score a critical hit!
Your claw drives deeply in to a goblin elite's head.
a goblin elite is bleeding from several injuries.


You score a critical hit!
Your claw deeply penetrates a goblin elite's abdomen.
a goblin elite is bleeding freely.


You score a critical hit!
Your bite drills in to a goblin elite's right leg.
a goblin elite is bleeding freely.


A goblin berserker destroys one of your images.
You sidestep a goblin berserker's piercing attack.

[round 19. Finally the illusory pit fades and rounds are no longer full of nothing but crit attacks.]
Your claw stabs a goblin elite's chest.
a goblin elite is bleeding freely.


Your claw deeply stabs a goblin elite's abdomen.
a goblin elite has several traumatic wounds.


Your bite stabs a goblin elite's chest.
a goblin elite has several traumatic wounds.

To summarize. That was 18 full rounds of
1. Everything I do crits.
2. The affected parties can do nothing. They can't attack, they can't move, they can't cast, or even avoid being hit in the first place. Nothing.

So, as a caster, I just spent one spell to kill four high level mobs without taking a single point of damage. One sixth-level spell. One sixth-level spell that isn't even meant to be an instant-death spell. Fair, huh? Oh, also, that was not an extended version of the spell. I could extend it and get ~36 free rounds of do-whatever-the-hell-I-want combat. Oh, and yeah, cast this spell when you have a fighter or cleric at your side. Sit back and watch those beasties (or worse yet, those living, breathing, thinking players' PCs) fall like nobody's business.

What other spell in the game comes remotely close to that? I've heard folks say, "Well, what about X or Y spell. That one's devistating even more than illusory pit."

Earth reaver: Stuns for one round only if the victim(s) fail to save.
Weird: Actually has two chances to save. First you get will, then you get fort. most every class has either a strong will or fort, save the poor rogues. Weird is not as horrible as those unfamiliar with how it works say it is. I actually only keep one at a time prepped exactly for that reason, because it fails often enough unless you know you'll be fighting those with weak will/fort.

Any other questions?

[Simossus]

Damage should bring a targeted individual out of the effects of an illusiory pit.

Illusiory pit should, at the very least, regardless of successful save or fail, stun a target via vertigo. That does not mean the target is prone or incompacitated.

The prone condition here on FK is wildly split from SRD. Should apply -4 AC and -4 hit bonus to the proned individual and the standing action to incur an attack of opportunity - which is always a melee attack. FK's variant of the prone condition is more akin to helplessness where you are able to deliver a couple de grace ie. Automatic hits and automatic criticals. Could also have something to do when on killmode stun and target's are mortally wounded by melees.

*ghost grammar edit to correct my mobile failures

[Alitar]

Seeing it fixed (Simossus summed up what isn't working with it very concisely) would be preferable to seeing it disable, but for as the former takes a fair bit of time I support the latter as well. The way it functions now is some epic level spell silliness.

[Areia]

I'd obviously likewise much prefer it to be fixed rather than just scrapped. But I know how long and how much work that takes, and I know that it wouldn't be likely to get done any time soon if ever. So I went right to disable. I suppose I should have mentioned that consideration in my first post, to avoid people thinking I'm just bitter and want it thrown away... or whatever people thought. My bad.