Crafting and enchantment

[Yemin]

I've been reading a lot of older threads about the craft system and the various issues with it. To me it does seem like how it is the crafting system doesn't really mesh well with the game, but gentlemen, ladies and ducks, I think i have it.

It doesn't mesh because the crafting system produces materials that already exist in the game so it feels redundant. Especially since it seems to take a lot of effort to produce substandard product at the end. I propose that the crafting system be instead be geared towards parts of the game that are felt to be neglected.

My initial idea is for crafting / enchanting be used to buff up archery a bit. I believe enchanted ammunition being a rarity in the game because its hard to get and is expensive would be a great boon to both archery and crafting / enchanting. Giving one a much needed boost to be as destructive as it should be and the other more value. I suggest ammunition specifically because it is a finite material that runs out quickly so perminant enchantments shouldn't dispoil the game as they'll be used up as quickly as their made.

I'm posting htis very late... so there're probably some really good ideas why this shouldnt be... discuss

[Vibius]

This was something in the past I put a lot of thought in.

A discussion about general crafting & enchanting deserves his own separate topic as much the current state of archery, but for the ammunition case perhaps it could be done without an enchanting system.

Just have a few shopkeepers that sells cheap special arrows & bolts. This arrow has a special command that if used and having a particular item in your inventory, that arrow disappears but you get a different arrow which can't use commands to transform it further but it behaves like a magic arrow of sorts.

Example:

Bob the fletcher is here.

>Buy 'carved bolt'.

>look bolt

This bolt it is awesome, it also has been carved so you can apply different ointments to it or fill it with stuff.
OOC: Use fillacid to fill it with acid, filloil to fill it with oil....

>inventory

a flask of oil
an awesome carved bolt.

>filloil

You carefully apply some oil to the bolt

> inventory

A oil-coated arrow

[Yemin]

An elegant solution to create magic arrows. However, the thinking behind my initial idea is to create an area where there is actually a need for crafting, enchantment. and their products.

My aim was to benefit both areas instead of just the one and it should be something that is quickly used up so there will always be a need for more crafters / enchanters.

E.g. Crafters can work with different metals. It would be nice for both rangers and other PC crafters to make silver, cold iron and mithral arrow heads that give the arrows that bypass Damage reduction.

Flame arrow is actually a transmutation in dnd 3.5 and imbues arrows with what would be weapon of energy for a number of minutes. Enchanters could instead make fire/cold/electricity/corrosive arrows like any other craft skil, brewing, scribing and so on.

I felt the problem with crafts in the past and now was that to make it possible to make magical armour would either be redundant as you can get armour from quests or shops and it still takes ages to become good enough to make it. Which would result it being undervalued. Or it would be able to create magical armour and weapons so powerful that they would imbalance the game and drastically reduce the value of quested armour and NPC sold magical gear.

I think the best way forward for crafting in general is for it to fill needs of other areas of the game that aren't met yet if its going to find value in the future. Adventurers are afterall an oddity to a certain degree and their experiences tend to fill them with some pretty odd needs. I think the reverse is true in this case that Crafting has been kept too separate in the design of the game so it feels like an afterthought even though quite obviously a whole bunch of effort has been devoted to make it possible and bring it to speed with the rest of the game over the years.

[Vibius]

I for one I think that magical crafting is ok, providing there is a maximum of items than you can create in a particular time window, so you can't flood the market more than a new character selling unwanted quest rewards, and the more powerful the item, the more time it takes to create.

So for example: It takes a few RL days (maybe more, maybe less) to enchant a few hundred of arrows, but it takes 2-3 (maybe more) RL weeks to enchant a magical sword.

This also would give use to plain old smiths, as the time used for enchanting can't be used for crafting, so if you want to craft a magical sword, you either craft it and enchant it, or buy one from a pc and enchant it.

[Yemin]

I for one I think that magical crafting is ok, providing there is a maximum of items than you can create in a particular time window, so you can't flood the market more than a new character selling unwanted quest rewards, and the more powerful the item, the more time it takes to create.

So for example: It takes a few RL days (maybe more, maybe less) to enchant a few hundred of arrows, but it takes 2-3 (maybe more) RL weeks to enchant a magical sword.

This also would give use to plain old smiths, as the time used for enchanting can't be used for crafting, so if you want to craft a magical sword, you either craft it and enchant it, or buy one from a pc and enchant it.

I propose we begin only with items that get damaged and run out quickly like ammunition and see how it goes. I don't think there is room for PCs enchanting weapons and armour at the moment in any capacity personally, but thats up for debate of course.

[Svenrick]

I'm quite in support of this idea.

I agree with Yemin's test of seeing how the finite supply ends up working before moving on to others as an experiment.

Perhaps it would be viable to cast/ preexisting items with spells similar to brewery after learning the "trade" proper?

Flame Arrow - Flaming Arrows
Acid Arrow - Acid Arrows
Magic Missile - Arcane Arrows

-and so on?

I'm ignorant as to how these systems would work and if frankensteining one together would be viable so feel free to poke holes or disregard as necessary!

[Beskytter]

Honestly, after banging my head against the crafting system for a long time I do think there's still room for tweaking. I like the arrows idea, Svenrick has a good idea with using a trade skill to make arrows magically imbued. I also like the idea of applying oil, poison, etc to an arrow to change its properties.

I think what makes the crafting system take so long to master is the offline aspect to it. The point of that is/was to keep our in game time to RP instead of spending forever in a room waiting to complete the object... however, what I've found is that this leads to a lot of just logging to pop new craft, disappearing again to play non-trade alt. Then you need mats, so you're in game a while if you can get them but are hidden from RP while you find those mats, repeat log to pop craft switch to alt after you've spent a few days getting mats. I feel that a blend between these two styles is more appropriate, in game runs quick but fails more while out of game takes longer but fails less often. If you start a project offline you can't work on one online.

Same with enchanting items in general. Permanent enchants to items must be done out of game and take a long time to finish. Notched/etched, storing items can use special enchantment stones/oils for a time limited affect similar to magic weapon. Example: Permanently enchant arrows with fire, takes a full 24hrs IRL offline time but makes 50 arrows at a time. Archane Fire Oil is made in game using the fireball spell (or equivalent), takes a couple seconds, but only lasts for one use of the arrow before fading out. One vial of oil is good for five arrows, making this a quick but dirty way to have magic arrows.

Permanent enchants to armor/weapons I think should be something we can do but I think they should come a great cost for us to do. Timed oils/stones again make it cheaper and more likely to be used too. Permanent enchants should also be limited to a degree and hindered by trade skill and locked behind a feat (that is app'd for in my opinion.)

[Ungtar]

I'd like to see some stuff like this available through app. I've never been really clear what was and wasn't available through applications, but the crafting of extremely arcane items or searching out divine artifacts ought to be something that high level characters could pursue with enough kismet/glory/hours.

[Yemin]

I don't have any experience with the crafting system, So got some questions.

What are Mats?
And do the crafting checks not happen whether offline or on? Its faster if you keep logged off then?

[Ungtar]

I don't have any experience with the crafting system, So got some questions.

What are Mats?
And do the crafting checks not happen whether offline or on? Its faster if you keep logged off then?

It depends on the craft involved. For weapon and armor smithing, it is an offline process. I don't like it much. Considering that leveling a craft is an important part of roleplay and you have to log off and go play another character (or another game) to do it, the offline just doesn't work for me.

"Mats" are materials. It is not faster if you keep logged off because there are often failures in the process, which you don't know about until you've logged back in and have to pay more money.

Brewing is probably the best put-together craft, in my opinion. It's an online process, the end product is a consumable and very much in demand by the playerbase, and it's enjoyable to do. Plus, you learn both the brewing craft AND the skills you're brewing into potions as you go. Double win.

[Yemin]

I'm of the oppinion that, craft skills shouldn't be a completely offline or online process. they should happen whether offline or online and just require money in the bank to detract from.

As a brewer and scriber I would love it if I didn't actively have to do these things actively but If I had to pick between only happening offline, or happening in game I'd pick in game since I've more or less worked out a method for brewing and scribing without having to sit around doing nothing else since well. The down time system was made for these sorts of things.

Just a quick for those who don't play the tabletop. Downtime is when the dungeon master declares the end of an adventure and allocates a number of weeks or months between adventures where the characters can do whatever they want. Most just declare I want to craft this this and this, make a few rolls and next week they find out if they manage dit before starting the next adventure. Though I'll admit, playing a table top dnd game is more about snippets of character's lives and playing a MUD is more like actually playing the character so there you have it.

To include Svenrick's idea, perhaps the crafting process wouldn't require as much work to implement if it depended mostly on spell knowledge and a skill as well, like brewing and scribing, rather than an entire separate craft command with what I'll be honest looks like a really complicated syntax and all sorts of items to gather and such for it. Thats just my incapability and laziness talking though. I'd say though that considering how ridiculous some of these checks on the SRd can get in 3.5 you'd need some pretty impressive knowledge / proficiency in the spell to manage it, Perhaps restrict the ability to do it at all on the spell it depends on, or spellS depending what enchantment, to at least journeyman or adept skill prof.

I'm still not really a fan of perminant enchantments on weapons / armour though. Either the cost will be too high that it'll barely be worth coding it because it'll be underused. Or it'll be too easy and too many people will gain the ability.

And as far as I've seen, the weapons and armour in game excluding the exotic examples, nets / line / rope weapons and such. The already available magical armour boost characters to pretty heroic levels of strong godlike domination. The only use I think for crafting and enchanting would be for fluff and perhaps ridding the need to apply for renames if it becomes possible however disjointedly to customize armour, weapons and jewelry.

I recognize that there are some forms of magical armour that aren't very widespread, perhaps non existant since I've personally never seen them. But it'd be worth bringing that up in a separate suggestion for them to be included in quest rewards and so on

[Maetha]

Just a quick for those who don't play the tabletop. Downtime is when the dungeon master declares the end of an adventure and allocates a number of weeks or months between adventures where the characters can do whatever they want. Most just declare I want to craft this this and this, make a few rolls and next week they find out if they managed it before starting the next adventure.

DMs allow downtime? You don't go straight from adventure to adventure with no rest- or maybe one night of rest? Terrible DMs.*

*Sarcasm

Though I'll admit, playing a table top dnd game is more about snippets of character's lives and playing a MUD is more like actually playing the character so there you have it.

See above.

Regardless, I'm in support of anything that makes Rangers playable again- which magical arrows would certainly help with. It'd also help our Fighter and other friends who have armorsmithing / weapon smithing and can -never- get their hands on those dang magical cuisses / helmets / etc.

[Ungtar]

Probably another topic, but why aren't rangers playable right now?

I got my butt handed to me by a ranger sparring recently. And I have buffs, heals, and stoneskin. If it had been a real fight instead of a spar, I'd have been five different pieces on the ground bleeding out.

My halfling ranger sucks, but that's just sort of because of his build (and he's a halfling). A medium sized ranger specialized in longswords and dual wield is going to lay down some serious hurt.

The bow though ... meh ... it doesn't shine.

[Maetha]

The bow though ... meh ... it doesn't shine.

An archetypal part of the class- it's ranged attacking abilities- are missing. Yes, you can play a dual wielding Drizzt ranger- but... man, I want to play not-Legolas shooting more arrows than the end of 300.

[Rhangalas]

I think the main "problem" with crafting (and the reason people shy from it) is that you have to log out to progress the item.

The way I've seen it done is other games is:

You gather the materials needed.
You enter the craft syntax.
The code checks for materials and begins a short script/delay of you working on the item.
After the script finishes the code checks your skill/rolls against it.

After the roll you either:

Fail the roll and ruin some/all of the materials.
Pass the roll and advance the item towards completion.
"20" the roll and advance the item further towards completion than you normally would.

When all is said and done, you end up with an item like, "a partially completed titanium helmet". When you examine the item, "a partially completed helmet (25%)". Once any given craft is performed you are prohibited from crafting by a timer depending on how strenuous the craft should be - in FK's case this could probably be achieved with a magical effect that cannot be dispelled.

This system allows crafters to craft, but does not force them to be offline. The crafts are still delayed to prevent spam-crafting by the timer, but the crafter still gets to play - everybody wins.

EDIT: This system is featured in the SoI codebase if any coders want to take a look. I think Kithrater released his variation of the SoI codebase (ARPI) somewhere as well, but I'm not sure if the crafts code was modified.