Sneak, Hide, and RP

[Aticus]

One of the things that I've struggled with is how to RP when one of your main aspects is standing around hidden. There are plenty of things one can do that would not expose oneself to others, but any RP while hidden inevitably prompts someone in the room to say something. For example, banter between wizards over spells might bring a smile to my character's lips, something that SHOULD not be seen, but someone will see it and demand that i show myself. I should be able to take a drink from my waterskin or ease a biscuit out of my pack and eat it while hidden and without being detected.

I don't know how to fix this, but i did want to toss that out for folks to consider. There is a lot of RP going on that's literally invisible to the mud. While it's not about the glory reward, there is that to consider, as well. Nobody says, "Hey, Beelzebobcat RPd being hidden and listening REALLY well by not moving, blinking, speaking, drinking, eating, etc."

Thoughts?

[Gwain]

Since the advent of the spot and sense motive skills, its reasonable to assume that hiding works more like 'hiding in plain sight' which is closer to tabletop. So its not about hiding as much as it is about hiding properly, as in once you hide, you hide behind something, or remain silent or sneaky. People that can see you will, and have the means to search you out will. Its important to remember that hiding and invisibility are different in that you can be invis with impunity but when you are hidden, as soon as you give yourself away you should go visible.

[Aticus]

Oh, I totally agree and understand the difference between hiding and being invisible. It's just that there are times I'd like to smirk or look at someone in a particular manner, I can't do that without revealing myself - something that I'm definitely not intending with just a smile.

As for RPing hiding and sneaking, I go back and forth on RPing. I typically don't if I'm fleeing a fight or finishing a fight with low HP, but I usually do under normal circumstances. Additionally, I try to do it if I'm going to be joining a large gathering, but RPing so as not to be seen by others means doing it out of their sight.

My character is grandmaster in both sneak and hide, so shouldn't he at least be able to smile from the depths of a shadow without that being detected?

[Alitar]

This thread seems to be more a commentary on how people react to your smotes while you are hidden. Yes, many smotes are things they wouldn't be able to notice. Yes people botch up and respond as though suddenly they are aware of you. This isn't every person however. This isn't something code can fix, this is something the community has been working on for years and will never have perfect. That said, if no one in the room can see you, why would you smote something anyway? If it is for yourself, smote it in your head.

[Yemin]

Well, the smote and emote commands are used to communicate your character's actions to the room. If you judge that no one can see it then it probably ought not be a smote. I.e., when I have my great helm on my fighter, or my cowl is pulled up to hide features in shadow, my smotes don't involve facial expressions as well, no one is able to see it unless they mote getting up close or something.

In my opinion its bad form to try and uncover *someone* for just drinking out of a waterskin or likewise actions but justification can be made on both sides depending on the cenario.

[Aticus]

Thanks for the opinions and tips. I like the mind smote concept. It's a matter of wanting to be able to interact with the environment rather than just watching what's happening and sometimes hitting l to ensure that you don't accidentally go afk.

I realize this is more about how people react rather than something that can be coded. Maybe my underlying intention was to get people thinking about how they react. I can't rule that out. But I'm also not trying to be overly critical.

In short, I find myself RPing by not RPing.

[Yemin]

I don't play rogues, but I think it may bare mentioning here that to me hiding and sneaking is something I thought rogues do when they have to. At first they might find power in their new found skills and flaunt it when they don't need to but apart from grinding the skills to practice. If you've gmed them there's no more mechanical benefit at least to sneaking and hiding in e.g. Waterdeep market square... on main roads in cities... what would you be hiding from? Unless your playing someone who's extremely paranoid all the time at least.

I'm not attempting to narrow what and how the skills should be used. The thought just reminded me that I found it odd how some rogues sneak everywhere, or hide everywhere even though it would be odd to put the extra effort in doing so down that street.... in a shop when there's no danger to hide from. Outside of the ol' pickpocketing hour before happy hour.

[Vaemar]

My character is grandmaster in both sneak and hide, so shouldn't he at least be able to smile from the depths of a shadow without that being detected?

Uhm, really, where is the difference between not doing any emote and doing an emote that nobody who does not notice your character can see? They should not see anything anyway, so better not do anything at all. If your character does something nobody sees, and it is kind of a smile or something, in my opinion, you do not need to input a social to do it.

On the other hand emotes are nice if you want to be noticed without actually revealing yourself, like making some noise and see how nervously the characters around react upon realizing there is somebody there. Often, to be fair, I have not seen this great RPs, but sometimes it can really be fun.

Another variant is doing an emote or say something and then almost immediately afterwards revealing yourself and jump into the rp.

And then the last option is to actually see what they are doing, remembering what they have done and then rping with the knowledge your character has acquired in a later moment. For example your character sees somebody doing something illegal and then starts to scheme and plot on how to blackmail or frame the criminals. It can make for very fun rp as well, despite while your character is hidden you are not really rping.

P.S.
I have seen the first point has already been expressed before my post at least twice.

[Lirith]

I don't play rogues, but I think it may bare mentioning here that to me hiding and sneaking is something I thought rogues do when they have to. At first they might find power in their new found skills and flaunt it when they don't need to but apart from grinding the skills to practice. If you've gmed them there's no more mechanical benefit at least to sneaking and hiding in e.g. Waterdeep market square... on main roads in cities... what would you be hiding from? Unless your playing someone who's extremely paranoid all the time at least.

I'm not attempting to narrow what and how the skills should be used. The thought just reminded me that I found it odd how some rogues sneak everywhere, or hide everywhere even though it would be odd to put the extra effort in doing so down that street.... in a shop when there's no danger to hide from. Outside of the ol' pickpocketing hour before happy hour.

People don't hide or sneak in Waterdeep MS for mechanical benefit, for the most part. It's generally for an RP purpose, such as information gathering, or eavesdropping, for example. This might not always be a reason why, but it's certainly why my thief would be hiding in MS or some other busy place.

Anyone paranoid now?

[Aticus]

Oh, I've definitely done the sound and reveal movement.

Lirith has the right of being hidden and sneaking in any area. Subterfuge.

The difference between doing it and people not seeing versus not doing it at all is that sometimes I'd like to be able to do more RPwise than just hang around hidden.

RP it's all about wanting to actually be able to do something while you're hanging out and listening, listening, listening...

[Woror]

This is just my opinion; We should only RP what others can receive. Grinning behind a mask, combing a wet ball of hair while hiding or dancing the macarena as you sneak past a sunite ball are actions that most of the time you only will be aware, by RPing them you are forcing everyone to ignore something that they actually have seen.

[Althasizor]

Spot means sometimes, someone in the room will see you even if everyone else can't. Emoting for their benefit, rather than just doing whatever without RP is just polite. If you're sneaking up on someone, smoting gives them a chance to set their character in the scene. It allows you to have a bit of interaction with someone who can't see you. (sneaking about and moving things on them, to their confusion). There's tons of reasons why you might want to RP it rather than stand silently in a roleplay MUD just because you picked a less direct class. My opinion is that rogues should continue to RP a huge half of their character(Sneaking around and rogue'ing), and leave the blame with people who illogically RP seeing hidden things.

[Hrosskell]

I believe there is a way to make actions done while hidden unseen; how, I'm not entirely sure, but my belief in this comes from the fact that you used to be able to (and may well be able, still) to use thieves' cant in front of people who (if they didn't have the skill) couldn't see it. This sort of intercept on hide vs. spot would be great. If you succeed a spot to see the person, you see them and their smotes. If you fail to see them, but succeed later on their smote, you see that someone's doing something (but can only use limited info, sounds, general area, etc.). If you fail, you never see any feedback at all.

[Gwain]

Are your smotes hidden in theive's cant?

[Hrosskell]

No, it was limited to the "say" function. I'm not technically gifted enough to understand how or why it worked, but its existence alone leads me to believe it could somehow be applied to smotes. If, for example, the game checked for language, then applied a "hiding" function to that language unless the skill existed on the listener, the game could ostensibly check for hidden (the status of hiding characters), then apply a "hiding" function on smotes unless spot existed/was passed by the listener, if that makes sense.

A similar effect is the disguise adjective check vs. whatever it checks against. Players who fail see the "disguise," players who succeed see the name or adjective of the disguised player.

[teepo]

Some 2 cents thrown into this, and forgive me if it was mentioned prior, but ultimately if you're hidden and no one sees you currently then emotes or emote commands such as smiling wouldn't be used. It limits the rogue/bard/ranger from a lot of things but this goes into a discussion of realistic hiding thoughts and code limitations.

Now a thought would be is if there were a special "hidden" emote command, kind of like how smote was implemented, but this special emote would only be seen by those who are currently detecting hidden things whether by skill or magic. You as the one in hiding would use this for your Role Play and those who can see you and might just choose not to out you would be able to see the string of text you submitted.

I do agree that when it says "Someone smiles at the discussion" and suddenly everyone is aware you're there it's in poor taste Role Play wise, but that's why I personally don't emote unless I intend on making a sound and out myself for Role Play's sake.

Of course I'm not the end all for Rogueish Role Play, lol. Just some thoughts.

[dolifer]

ultimately if you're hidden and no one sees you currently then emotes or emote commands such as smiling wouldn't be used.

Problem for the sneaks is... There's no way to tell who can and can't see you when you're hidden, and I personally would feel kinda weird if I succeeded spot vs. a sneak and saw them just standing there doing nothing at all. A hidden emote might not add something for everyone (sometimes even for anyone), but for those times where someone does beat your hide roll... It's a plus!

And yes, general reminder as has admittedly been noted here already: If "someone" does something, unless the action is accompanied by some obvious sounds/smells/etc., you didn't see it.

P.S., Kind of off-topic but kind of not. I also have gotten into the habbit of emoting/smoting/etc. when under invis, for the benefit of those near who might have detect invis or the like active.

[Aticus]

I love the discussion going on here.

Many thanks to everyone for remaining polite.

[Aticus]

I guess it all boils down to wanting to be able to engage in RP while in the shadows so I don't just look like I'm standing around with my thumb in my ear.

[teepo]

Problem for the sneaks is... There's no way to tell who can and can't see you when you're hidden, and I personally would feel kinda weird if I succeeded spot vs. a sneak and saw them just standing there doing nothing at all. A hidden emote might not add something for everyone (sometimes even for anyone), but for those times where someone does beat your hide roll... It's a plus!

Very good point, since we can't tell you're right it would be a just in case. So yes a hidden emote being implemented wouldn't be a bad idea. Maybe hmote for hiding and imote for invisibility? That way if you're hidden and someone who has detect invisibility active won't see it but those who can detect hidden things can and imote for those who ARE using detect invisibility, but detect hidden wouldn't have any interference with. Maybe we should get this posted in suggestions? Think that'd be a good idea?