Soldiers and Scale-able Mobs

[Beskytter]

I've been working on the mechanics of this idea for a while now, doing research into source materials and rule books, and I think I have it all down now so it's balanced.

We have a standard two minion/pet limit, I know there's a third if your charisma meets the requirements, but this can be limiting to certain classes/characters who specialize in having legions of minions to do their dirty work. It also removes one important aspect to playing a fighter or paladin, soldiers.
In table top you're able to spend an amount of gold per week to hire on retainers, soldiers, and so on to join you on adventures. These can be vital to the success of large scale missions and add a bit of RP-able background to your campaigns. In FK we lose out on a lot of this because of the limitation in having minions so I've worked up an idea for a scale-able mob system.

The Soldier Mob can be recruited from a mercenary camp, troop barracks (in the case of paladins), or by winning one over after killing a bandit leader (and completing a quest). The mob takes up one minion slot and has all the same commands as regular minions do, aside from mounting. What makes this mob special, though, is the ability to 'hire', 'recruit', or 'earn' more followers up to a maximum set by your charisma score. Each additional mob that is added to the first one gives the Mob unit a bonus to its toHit and damage rolls, AC, and its initiative in combat. The bonuses become smaller and smaller as you keep adding hirelings to the mob unit but it doesn't cap until you reach your maximum number of hirelings for your charisma score.

There is a second advantage to this type of mob and that is regional/area events. If we have mobs like this that can be controlled by programs, theoretically we could generate bandit raids on Triel or goblin surges on Ardeep. We could have Zhentarim legions sweep down into Cormyr causing skirmishes with the Purple Dragons, and many other options for both the surface and the Underdark. It would give a greater incentive to having leadership based characters like medium to high charisma fighters and paladins so that they can lead companies of men against legions of enemies in wars.

This could also lesson a bit of the demand for Imm run events that take a lot of planning to implement. A program could be set into place, develop over a few days to weeks, and take care of itself without any Imm oversight really needed. At the same time it cuts down on the number of actual mobs while still letting us RP that there's a horde of orcs charging our line.

[Gwain]

You can actually use your glory for an additional pet mobile.

[Yemin]

Also, These limits don't seem to count for summoned / charmed creatures that a PC can acquire through class abilities and while I'm having only a little trouble wrapping my head around the original idea, it sounds like you'd like large scale combat to be possible without all the clutter of too many multiple mobs.

Sounds cool to me.

[Terageld]

I feel like it could be abused and would cause a lack of group adventures. If this was an option, I'd rather hire a bunch of mercenary thugs to go thrash goblins with me instead of go though the hassle of scraping up an adventuring party.

[Yemin]

I see the concern but honestly. Once someone has experience real teamwork with PCs over what is offered with pets and such. There's really no comparison.

Real teamwork is magical

[Beskytter]

With the law of diminishing returns on this, the mob itself doesn't get more powerful than a PC. It does allow for larger scale combats/wars to be run without the clutter of ten thousand mobs being spawned but that's not the only thing its for.

In all fairness, this isn't a replacement for getting a group together. To clarify, these are soldiers/mercenaries or basic warrior class mobs... not fighters, clerics, or mages. After spending a little time testing the idea on my own game I found another mechanic that aids in balancing this system out -- Damage taken = loss of men. So, you spend a pretty platinum hiring 25 guys, getting a mob that fights like a level 30ish warrior and then go face down that wyvern. It tears into your men and the mob drops to 30% health during the fight, once healed the mob has lost men and now it's only as good as a level 15ish warrior and you'll have to hire more men.

In testing, the mechanic actually worked quite well and it seemed to give a good balancing act between magic users and non-magics. (*Side note, the system used to test the mechanic was PennMUSH. Setting and gameplay differ greatly but we made bits that followed 3.5 D&D.)

We have a massive number of world rooms and personally I just wonder through them because I haven't been to each of them, it feels like this mechanic would let us use them for new somethings without unbalancing anything in the process.

To sum up the suggestion here's an example of how we worked it out:

1 Hired Guard - AC:16 (medium armor), BAB:+2, DMG:1d6, HP:110 STATS: 14/14/14/14/14/14
2 Hired Guards - AC:20 (Heavy armor), BAB: +4, DMG 2d6, HP: 200 STATS: 16/16/16/16/16/16
3 Hired Guards - AC:22 (Heavy armor), BAB: +5, DMG 2d6+2, HP: 245 STATS: 16/16/16/16/16/16
.....
25 Hired Guards - AC: 26 (Heavy Armor), BAB:+9, DMG 4d6+3, HP: 475 STATS: 18/18/18/18/18/18

Every 4% = 1 Guard

At 30% HP only 7 Guards remain, dropping all stats to -- AC: 24, BAB:+6, DMG 3d6, HP: 320 STATS: 16s

Eventually, yes, you could theoretically have huge mobs but the Charisma cap for a Paladin with an 18 is 30 on our system so I don't see it being abused much if the cap is and curves are relatively balanced. The cost associated also goes up on a curve, the higher numbers of hirelings the more expensive each one will be to purchase. (I forgot to put this in the first post.) 1st guy might be 10 plat but by the 30th guy you're spending hundreds of platinum to hire him onto your cause.

[Yemin]

Personally it makes more sence to ME to either hire them individually or hire them in squads of 5 or merc bands of 10+.

They should be expensive but hundreds of platinum for one go might be overkill.

My 2 cp so far.

[Harroghty]

How would you mitigate the effects of the inevitable abuse? Minions used for PvP or to bend player-focused quest parameters?

[Gwain]

There's a nice system in the under dark in some places where you can pay to rent the service of one or more minions for a few hours use game time.

[Algon]

How would you mitigate the effects of the inevitable abuse? Minions used for PvP or to bend player-focused quest parameters?

Would it be possible to have the minions not assist in a PVP situation?
I cannot think if a command offhand that would do it, but somehow a fight prog on them that says... if ispc($n) then set no assist and then switch back upon a death in the room to assist? Just tossing out ideas.

[Rhangalas]

I agree with Yemin. A scale-able unit is a good way to prioritize the 2 minion limit, but it would not have much utility aside from it being a more powerful NPC than the usual. I think increasing the limit of minions based on charisma and feats would be better. With this you could have a small unit of followers, but still be able to customize their gear, interact with individual NPCs within the unit for RP scenes or individual orders, and position them individually/set aside some of them for various purposes (stealth or not risking your entire investment by bringing all of them on a campaign).

I could see influential clerics/cultists having a flock by using this. Necromancers could have their legion of undead. And Paladins could have their soldier detail.

Wizard familiars and ranger animal companions should be fixed first... I'm probably biased though.

[Yemin]

I'll be honest.3.5 familiars without some serious investment were a waste of space mechanically.

I'm kind of happy to see them not necessary here.
I'm more in line with Path finder's bonded object that gives you a little help in the beginning at least.

Or the PF familiar that grants you feat like advantages and bonuses automatically.

Anyway. I think War games could be fun if this idea is handled properly. Along with all the variations as mentioned above. Cultists, Genuine congregation. Festival followers. Army of pick-pockets etc. i see some fun happenings wit having specialized mobs that go around an area and pickpocket and such for their ring master. Group of scouts that locate and mark a fleeing target and have a track skill.

[Woror]

No offense meant, but I don't like this suggestion at all.

The moment you have able NPC followers around is the same moment you need less PC around your character and a way to circumvent you class' weaknesses without help from other fellow players from different classes.

[Yemin]

Is it bad that the reason I don't use pets and stuff more is simply being too lazy to input direct commands for 2 characters?

For good or bad though. Pets and such are already a part of the game and Mobiles of the strength being discussed can already be gained directly through either a spell or roundabout means with a different spell.

Have the concerns of abuse in pvp and such been adequately answered with code? My concerns on this side of things is more to do with yes, technically it would be acceptably realistic for an evil PC to have cultists or a fighter to have his soldiery compliment and for one or another to meet an enemy in transit on the fields and charge but when you consider what kind of behaviour and roleplay this could encourage and discourage, it might be a better idea for the majority of these units to only be available to people who've already shown some quality of roleplay and care for the game environment.

I.e. This could prove to be a good perk for faith managers, prellits and inner circle. Paladins, and people with the approved knight / dame roleplay as well as others in positions of legitimized authority.

Your average jo character who wants to be a free adventurer could be free to hire a certain number of small numbers of men, up to perhaps 5 or at most 10. These would have only basic combat skills and stats. But then the different positions in power gain access to specialty units with different skills. Track, hide, sneak. Some able to carry / hold and transport a large amount of weight etc.

These same quality control measures would help responsible use of the mobs and aid in playing out some fun cenarios like the results of a leader abusing his mandate and using his or her position to do things outside the organisation's interest.

Its a pretty exciting facet of the game if it comes to fruition.
Hopefully, most of that made some sense.

[Beskytter]

We tried it out in PvP where one character has the mob unit and the other doesn't, we then gave both mob units of different sizes, and followed that with equally sized units. We found the issue falling in with them being 'too' generic of a unit, in that they didn't account for the relative skills/abilities of the PC in charge of the unit.

End of the day, the unit's programming was updated to handle PvP by adjusting the unit's strength based on the PC in control of it. Charismatic leaders are fine, but inexperienced ones aren't. We used the Handle Animal skill for our bits and made a skill mod that improved or hindered the unit's effectiveness depending on how high or low it is compared to the number of men in the group. I know this doesn't directly restrict the mob's use in PvP but it does add the idea that say an Orc PC leader and a Ranger PC leader could wage a small war of their own in the High Forest with the better leader having greater advantage using their units.

For questing purposes, I don't see the mob being useful outside combat situations. Perhaps with the quest itself it can have a prog added that doesn't allow drops of quest item if killed by mob. Of the quests I've run, and I haven't done them all by any means, I don't know that even this sort of mob is worth the risk of losing. At low levels, you can't typically make this unit useful, and at high levels you risk the game killing your investment.

I avoid the static options suggested above (the 5 man unit, 10 man unit, etc) because it doesn't give the same feel of it being an investment as such. If you have to work hard to earn the coin to keep adding men to your unit, or you have to invest the time to earn them through finding and killing bandit leaders, the unit means more to you and you'll likely not take too big a risk with them. This is my way of staunching the 'slam thirty men into it' abuse.

I still don't see this as a way to avoid grouping with others as there isn't a comparison to having fellow PCs around.

*P.S. If we do want to inhibit the use of this mob in PvP or code wise disable the mob, could we code it to do its own 'consider' command and use the feedback to determine whether or not it will fight? That way we don't restrict moderately leveled leader from fending off PvP with higher level interloping faith enemy. My goal is to make the unit as robust as possible, so I'm willing to work on adjustments to the mechanics of it so it fits well with what we have already.

[Telk]

I have to say I really like this idea Beskytter and thanks for offering it as a well thought out suggestion. I think this is a good thing to implement and I would like to see more minions usable in combat. From my experiences with use of minions in combat on FK I haven't found them that helpful with the current code scheme as they all seem to die extremely fast.

I also think it could generate some good RP by introducing mobs that can fight for the character and generate different RP scenarios that aren't that feasible with the current minion system.

As far as balance issues and people abusing this for PvP, running through areas etc. I don't share the same concerns with this being unbalancing or easily abusable. Take for instance a spell that is already in game right now - animate dead. There is already the ability in game to raise a virtual army of undead minions to fight for you yet I haven't seen this being abused. Yes, you can use them in PvP but they also die quickly to AoE spells, and there are other tradeoffs. I don't see the mercenary system being that much different.

Is the main concern that this would allow someone with some mercenaries to steamroll others in PvP? I don't see how, considering that both sides would be able to use the mercenaries, as well as numerous other tradeoffs. How often would one of the mercenaries even be able to land a hit on a level 50 character? Plus, if you're willing to lug around mercenaries through all your adventures and you encounter a PvP situation I see no problem with that person having a *slight* PvP edge over others. If you're more prepared than other people then you should have an advantage.

As far as quests and soloing areas the way that the code is set up some classes are able to solo much more effectively than others. If I can easily solo an area on a priest character yet I can't on a rogue of the same level is it abuse to hire a few mercenaries to distract your opponent so you can land some blows?

I agree, there may be some potential for abuse with the minions but there is potential for abuse for many many things in the game. Obviously we don't want to make the game easy to steamroll all the mobs with minions but I think having a few minions to provide a little bit of assistance, even if it's just tactical, makes combat more enjoyable and dynamic. This potentially unbalancing aspect could be adjusted by adjusting the power of the mercenaries. I also believe it is offset by the proposed charisma requirements. If you're investing charisma in a character I think it's totally fair to be able to have more minions to help you in the fight, after all by investing charisma you are sacrificing other points that assist in combat and fighting ability for charisma which has no effect on combat itself so it seems to be a fair trade.