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Sneak Attack ability instead of backstab? Does some different stuff, like always works when someone is flanked (2 or more players attacking something) Which would help the Rogue class out quite a bit. Pretty much how it works by 3E put into game?

Paxos

*puzzle* I believe the circle stab skill already does something like this. I haven't played a rogue in a while, but it used to. Backstab with a flanking maneuver. Why would it always suceed though?

Oghma

Circle stab is basically a backstab that works in the middle of combat. I think sneak attack would be the same thing, except your saying it should always succeed when two or more people are fighting something?

So basically, it'd be a damage bonus when the thief and another person in the thieves group are attacking the same person? That's pretty much what it is in 3ed, with the addition of some positioning technicalities.

Circle stab doesn't require flanking or anything, and I think it's pretty much a leftover skill from the Smaug code. In the end though, it pretty much balances out as the equivalent of 3ed, with backstab being the beginning of combat sneak attack, and circle being the middle of combat, flanking sneak attack. You just have to find the trainers for each.

Del

The problem is that Circle takes a lot of stamina to do. It is also a lot of damage. Sneak attack is a smaller damage bonus that increases depending upon the level of the thief, that goes every hit. It is more the idea that the Thief is an expert at making a vital hit on someone while they aren't expecting it. Or if there are two people fighting against one, that the Rogue is kind of using the other person's presence as a way of hitting vital, unprotected areas.

Paxos

Flanking in 3ed is highly positionally dependent. We have no way to do this in FK. If we are going to allow 'flanking' attacks we need to also have a way to counter them, perhaps a skill or spell. Just because there's two of you does not mean you automatically flank your target, nor that you always hit, and especially if your target is also in a group. We would also need to implement the uncanny dodge feats, which negate flanking to a point.

In my experience, circle stab is lost when "initiative" is lost. Meaning, you get 1 shot at it, and afterwards, you miss every time.

I'm just reviving this post to wonder if it is anymore feasable now to consider bringing in Sneak Attack for Rogues and their sub-classes. One thing I'd like to point out, that doesn't seem to have been mentioned here before, is that Backstab and, I assume, Circle Stab only allow piercing weapons, such as daggers used in melee, but Sneak Attack also allows the use of ranged weaponry, such as bows or crossbows, in a limited fashion, as they can be used for a sneak attack within thirty feet of the target. Is there any way, or does it seem feasable, to bring this option in somehow? Just a thought.

It would indeed be nice to get rid of backstab and circle stab and replace both with a new "sneak attack" skill.

Is backstab and circle broken in some way? I have no problem with the way thieves are set up now. *shrugs*

Sneak attack, essentially, would end up being a more powerful version of the current backstab, which only allows you to attack from the same room. Sneak attack would allow for a surprise ranged attack instead of limiting it to melee. This doesn't make a thief's options more narrow, but actually more broad.

Additionally, circle stab is fairly underpowered at the moment.

I thought you had to be within a certain feet distance (way less than one "room") before you could get a sneak attack with a ranged weapon.

Sneak attack is actually broader that this.

The basic idea is that rogues are trained to hit precisely where it is going to hurt (neck, eye, vital points, ...), and that they can enjoy the full benefit of this method when their opponent's attention is diverted away from them.

Two situations where that applies:
- when the opponent is surprised (that would correspond to the first attack in a combat IF the opponent cannot see the attacking rogue)
- whenever the opponent is attacked by the rogue AND an ally to the rogue (I would restrict "ally" to "another grouped PC" here, not a pet)

That would mean that rogues would have rather a important bonus to damage done whenever they are in a group.

Dalvyn wrote:Sneak attack is actually broader that this.
Two situations where that applies:
- when the opponent is surprised (that would correspond to the first attack in a combat IF the opponent cannot see the attacking rogue)
- whenever the opponent is attacked by the rogue AND an ally to the rogue (I would restrict "ally" to "another grouped PC" here, not a pet)

So, we would be combining the codes for backstabbing (adding the requisite for being hidden/invis or the victim being blind, or other conditions similar) with the circle stab (allowing the extra damage when the thief is grouped with another)

I would like to see the initiative requirements above on sneak attack, in addition, I would like to see the skill limited in hard code to the types of targets (no non-humanoid, no ACT_UNDEAD, etc). I would also like to see the ability tied to PC level, rather than a skill level. All of these issues in the curent skills, lead to simple, widespread abuse of the skill: continual, face-to-face backstabs of mobs, even rats, zombies, etc, in order to twink up the skill, starting pkills with face to face backstabs, etc)

Sometimes, this abuse is not even intentional, as much as an ignorance of how one should ICly be able to backstab. Adding the code restrictions, and removing the *need* to twink said skill, will remove the instances of said abuse.

And as far as ranged sneak attacks, I do belive it requires a point blank range, game terms, that's same room. There are feats on prestige classes like the deepwoods sniper, that allow bonus damge attacks at a range, however.

Dugald wrote:I thought you had to be within a certain feet distance (way less than one "room") before you could get a sneak attack with a ranged weapon.

As I forgot to mention above, the distance in Tabletop is 30 feet for a ranged Sneak Attack.

Then it wouldnt be a 'ranged' attack if you had to do it from the same room. If you want to play the lets be as realistic and adhere to the full scale of the world map game then they have to nix magic mirror, fireballs, being able to see a couple of rooms away and any other "ranged" spell/weapon as well. I doubt conceding one room distance for a ranged weapon would matter much anyway.