Prestige Classes

[Ursan]

As I was researching the Harper Scout class that I am planning to submit quests and skills for, I came across this link.

http://crpp0001.uqtr.uquebec.ca/w4/camp ... lasses.htm

I thought it might be useful to start a thread to share this kind of information amongst those of you who are planning to submit ideas.

[Versayir]

I apologize if there's a thread devoted to this already, (I've looked and couldn't seem to find the info) but how does one go about submitting prestige class ideas?

[Lorion]

While reading the information about how prestige classes are implemented, i have got two questions:

As far as I understood it so far, a character of course should somehow learn ICly that a certain prestige class exists, then at some time get the wish to join this prestige class. After that, he has to visit an NPC who gives him a quest, and after doing this quest he can "join" and from now on belong to this prestige class.
The question I have is the following: You said most likely it is that you have to meet certain requirements to join a prestige class. How will your character ICly know that? You can learn ICly that there is a certain prestige class, but no character can look at you and say "You lack strength. the XYZ only accept strong characters". Wouldn't this be something the recruiter mob can/should tell you? I imagine it as following: After you do the quest, the NPC gives you a short description of what it means to belong to this prestige class, which includes things like "We only take strong/experienced(kismet)/lucky/wealthy/whatever people. If you have to do for example a quest in Shilmista to be able to join he can say "We have strong ties with Shilmista, and like to see people who are in favour with them". Then, when you want to join but don't meet the requirements, the NPC should tell you what is wrong, like "You are too weak/poor/whatever". In my opinion this should be a requirement for making a prestige class, because especially for characters who are already level 50 there aren't that many possibilities to develop any further, and you should rather learn what exactly you need to meet the requirements, so you can work towards that goal. Hmm, I hope you understand what i wanted to express here.
Another question is about the quest attached to joining. Would it be that every character(within IC sense of course) can do every quest that also happens to be a quest for a prestige class, whether he wants to join or not? Would it be that a character has to express his wish to join a prestige class before he can get the quest, but in the middle of the quest can change his mind and try to join another prestige class? Or would it be that at the time you start one of the quests, your path is set, you cannot do anything else but complete the quest or fail, which would leave you without a prestige class?

[Kirkus]

Alright, first most of the prestige classes are going to be groups that ICly everyone will know. Well unless your rping a toddler.... but thats a wholde different barrell of monkies. Purple Dragon Knights, Elven Bladesingers, Divine Champions, Stormlords..... these are groups everyone knows about. In some cases they might be the worlds worst kepts secret or a big rumor that just happens to be true, but in most cases they are well known on purpose. They are called prestige classes for a reasion.

As far as requirements there are a couple ways I believe that might be handled, I am not Mystra so I don't know how she is going to do that. But I would say put that stuff on a page here on the boards. That or in the help files. I think it is extremely corny and slightly ooc to go to a mob and they say "You lack Kismet!"

Now your last question about quests. NO! Not everyone is even going to come close to fulfilling the requirements for every prestige class. Especially the faith related ones. Ursan wouldn't even think of attempting the quests for Stormlords, why? because he is a follower of Chauntea, Stormlords are for followers of Talos.... hmm think she would mind? I do, he does, she would. Now good faithed or just plain good pc's are going to have some more chances, why because they are good and thats the way it goes. Good cities will tend to have more prestige classes like " Come join the Waterdeep Guard!" no evil will want to go out for that.

Basically you don't need to worry about the ones you don't qualify for. More than likely you will have options.

[Jharthyne]

Another question I have on prestige class is that, prestige classes usually come with special abilities gained at certain level, eg. at level 1, +1 to AC, level 5 +2 to AC, etc. Will prestige classes in FK be able to implement such level-related bonuses?

I was trying to see what prestige class I want to submit to FK, but I ended up not submitting any suggestions because I didn't see how these prestige classes can have their abilities implemented.

[Kregor]

As far as knowing a brief amount of info about a prestige class, and what it entails to be one, there will be a helpfile system for prestige classes, which will include a helpfile on each prestige class available, so you will be able to see, at a glance, the basic gist of a class, and, I would assume, the OOC info on who would qualify and at least some prerequisites. As far as where to FIND an entry point for said class, that would have to be discovered ICly.

At the point of ICly confronting the quest initiator, most of these quests should be designed not just as a test, but also teach the char about the group they are seeking to join. As far as a mob ICly telling you "You do not look strong enough, etc., that would be up to the design of the quest builder, I would imagine. There's a possibility that, unless you are close to meeting the requirements for said class, the mob might not say anything to you at all.

As far as the quests to join, I would imagine building checks into the quest so that if you already have a prestige class, no, you cannot take another.

As far as abilities for prestige classes, some of them will have to be adapted to the skill and feat set of FK. Mind you, there are some new spells and skills and feats that will ultimately be coded and available (those that have "add to mantis" beside their topic in the respective forum threads). Aside, it takes just a little creative touch to adapt one skill of feat to another. If you have a prestige class you are hoping to see in the game, but aren't sure how to adapt it, then I would think others would like to see it as well, and might have some good ideas. Also, most prestige classes probably won't have ALL the abilities of their tabletop counterpart anyway, just for balance sake in a non-multiclassed system. But the skills that give the class it's flavor and distinction should be there. These classes are not for the sake of pumping up your characters, as much as fleshing them out and expanding character diversity.

[Lorion]

(iin reply to Kirkus)
Okay, the first thing was rather badly thought about by me. It is not that my character would lack knowledge, rather I would lack knowledge of prestige classes. So, ignore that part please.

Now about the question with requirements. If there is a help file for each prestige class that states what the requireents are I have no problem with that. But I thought(maybe wrongly) that this wouldn't be said in the help files. So, while it is obvious that a stormlord has as a requirement being a follower of Talos, it would not be obvous if he needs for example 18 points in strength(this is just an example, i have no idea what any requirements for any classes will be). So, if i had a talosian character who wants to become Stormlord, I would have to have a way of learning, OOCly via the help files or ICly from the recruiting mob, why I cannot become a member. I never said such a mob should say "You lack kismet" as it would really be an OOC phrase, but rather find a way to describe it, as in "You lack experience",or "You are not old enough" or anything else.

Finally, about the quests. I did say i meant ICly doable quests. Of course a follower of Chauntea wouldn't try to do the quest to become a stormlord. But let's take a paladin. There are a few orders of paladins i think, which would count as prestige classes. So, your average paladin could go and try to become a member of one of them. However, if the quest was offered to him, he could also try to become member of another order, or of the waterdeep guard. I am sure all of those quests would be designed in a way that every paladin could do them. That does not mean that he would want to join two prestige classes. But if a quest would be, for example, "go and find lost artifact XYZ, without it Faerun will fall apart, and oh by the way, if you do that we would also consider you worthy of joining our order" then that paladin might icly say "Fine, i will find your artifact, but I have no wish to join your order". This was the question I was asking. I hope it became a little clearer now. Or maybe just more confusing.

[Argentia]

To add yet another topic of discussion about PrCs, I've been curious how PrCs that have requirements only met through multiclassing could be implimented in FK? A prime example would be the arcane archer, truly an archer at heart but it requires the ability to cast 1st level arcane spells as well. In FK most, if not all, archers are rangers, but they can't cast arcane spells. How should this be dealt with in FK?

[Isolrem]

Far as submitting uncoded skills is concerned...
Is it welcomed? And to what degree?

[Kregor]

Expanding on that last question...

What if a prestige class has a skill or feat, that is functionally like an existing skill, but may have a different name, and probably a different echo for the effect.

For example:

The duelist gets an ability call precise strike, that gets better as he goes up in level. Now, translated to MUD terms, this could be equated to the circle stab, except that it's not really circling around and stabbing them in the flank, but the actual code process would be the same.

Would it be possible to duplicate the skill in the skills file, changing the name and echo to distinguish it from the original skill, for the sake of prestige class support?

[Ellian]

Will new if checks be made to check a character's prestige level?


Jayson

[Glim]

Is it possible to have a prestige class remove a spell/skill/feat that the character already gets? This can be seen as perhaps a sacrifice for other spell/skills/feats or would remove current spells/skills/feats that would be unIC for the current prestige class to use.

(i.e. a character gets 3 armor proficiency feats from having a prerequisite for the PrC but once they take said PrC they would be dropped down to only 2 armor proficiency feats)

[Glim]

Another question, will prestige classes have their skills/spells/feats ect lists posted on the website, along with the requirements for each PrC? Also, perhaps a small story written by the author included with them as well?

I know this is alot of work, but I think this would be a neat idea, perhaps it could be another list below the current guilds already on the site?

[Kirkus]

I like your second idea Glim but can you explain your first more? Why would a prestige class have a skill as a prereq then take the skill away? I could just be misreading your post.....

[Glim]

Ahh, so at not to get into specific examples. Ill put an example for a skill, a spell and a feat.

Lets say a prerequisite of a certain PrC is having the fighter class. Fighters we know get grip. But when they take the PrC, grip is remove from their skill list.

The same can be said of a spell or a feat.

Lets say a prerequisite for a PrC is invokers. We know invokers get chain lightning. But when they take said PrC, chain lightning is remove.

Lets say being priest of Mask is a prerequisite of a certain PrC. Priests of Mask get 3 armor proficiency feats. But when they take said PrC, their armor proficiency is dropped down to only 2 feats.

Something like that, if im not making it very clear, please tell me.

[Kregor]

The word I've heard was that if a prestige class disallows a certain skill, and it needs to be that way in FK for balance sake, it should be designed to disallow someone that has the skill trained.

That's harsh, but actually, skills are a choice. Unlike something like armour proficiency where it's a bonus feat that comes for free with your class. Fighters don't get grip, Invokers don't get chain lightning, they earn the option to train it as one of their class skills. ICly it would be kind of hard to explain how you could forget how to grip your weapon anyway.

The other option is to trust players to RP their class by not using a skill disallowed by the prestige class. For many, that may be sufficient, for some, it may be as effective as keeping centaurs and hobgoblins out of Waterdeep.

armour proficiency could be reset in a prog at the end of the prestige quest, with the right command. I am hashing that out with the two PrC's I'm designing right now.

[Dalvyn]

ICly it would be kind of hard to explain how you could forget how to grip your weapon anyway.

It could be some kind of oath. For example, by becoming True Warrior of Tempus, you forsake the use of all ranged weapons. It's fine if you used some before you became a True Warrior; it's fine if you trained skills like bows. But when you become a True Warrior, you swear not to use them again.

Now, since it's not possible to make sure that you won't use them anymore, the skill could simply be set back down to 0. Note that it would not prevent you from training it back up afterwards unfortunately, but if you do that and go against your oath, expect to be thrown out of the prestige class and so on.

I don't think that requiring that someone has not trained a skill is a valid requirement for a prestige class, for two reasons. First, if character A can do all the things that character B can do (that is, if A knows all the skills that B knows), if B is allowed to join a prestige class, then so should A be. In other words, if you meet the requirements and even more than the requirements, you should still be a valid candidate (only positive requirements). Second, this would just mean that the character has not trained that skill when he joins the prestige class; he could still train it afterwards. Therefore, just setting the skill level down to 0 is most likely a much better solution.

[Kregor]

Now, since it's not possible to make sure that you won't use them anymore, the skill could simply be set back down to 0. Note that it would not prevent you from training it back up afterwards unfortunately, but if you do that and go against your oath, expect to be thrown out of the prestige class and so on.

That is true it can be set back down in a prog. An oath would be an IC way to say don't use it, even though you have it, though. I made my response here based on the response to my question on the topic in the code team, probably hasty on my part

[Lorion]

Especially with the grip skill you cannot codewise refuse to use it though, as it is an automatic skill. Hence I would say setting those skills/feats back to untrained is an option that at least partly should be done.

Another question though. If a PrC requires a feat not trained that had been trained deliberately(say, for example, spirited charge), and it will NOT be made so that those characters are excluded from this prestige class, and this feat will be untrained upon joining the prestige class, will you then gain a spare feat point again, or will this feat point be lost?

[Kregor]

I personally see few places where a feat would be disallowed on a PrC, short of something like armour proficiency in classes that require a limitation on a certain weight of armour. As Dalvyn said, you have the requisites *plus* other talents. Something like spirited charge would be dependent on a mount, and if say, your class forbids fighting on horseback, the feat never comes into play from then on anyway. If you have archery feats and pick a class that forbids using missile weapons, there again, the feats never come into play if the skill is gone and no longer used.

As far as getting back feat points, I don't see a lot of logic, personally, in trading feat points back. Look at it this way:

First, you have gotten worth back from investment in your feats during your original career. If you were a warrior who trained improved bash, and later join a prestige class that forbids shield usage, that feat was not purchased for nothing, you got an investment out of it when you used it on your previous path. To take feats away and give you a feat points back essentially gives you all the past benefit of the feat for free.

Secondly, you look at the abilities you get from most prestige classes, most of these classes get two, three, four, or more feats, just from the sake of progressing up in levels. Add to this the glory you'll be getting while you RP this new class up its levels. You have the potential to net several new feats during your char's new career.

I don't think anyone is going to have to be worried about being short changed for picking up a prestige class. You will be stepping into a new walk of life, with new talents, possibly new skills not available to your base class, and perhaps even a few new feats that only prestige classes can access (Tyr be willing ) In fact, the biggest issue on the plate is having *too* much power with the prestige classes. Not too little.