Forgotten Kingdoms Forums

Posted: **Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:06 pm**

I'd like to bring up the idea of Drow being able to return to the surface, to start off with at least in a limited fashion. I'd like to start out by pointing out the reasons Drow were removed from the surface in the first place, then go over some reasons why things have changed since then, and then come up with some counterarguments to Drow being allowed up again. I'd like to say I love all the work done with the Drow and with the MUSH as a whole, this is in no way to be implied as criticism, just a suggestion for a way I think the MUSH can be made better.

First of all, when Drow were first created, a lot of them wanted to be just like the coolest Drow around, Drizzt, because he is the one everyone has read about, the noble Drow who rejected Lloth to be a good surfacer. This is obviously an interesting choice for people because everyone wants to play the character who is different, and who is more different than a Drow who is good... it opens up a lot of interesting RP. Unfortunately it also created a really bad situation for Drow where most were good and just walked around on the surface not dealing with all the prejudices that drow should have to deal with. There were a lot more good Drow than evil, and that didn't allow for the creation of an evil drow culture. Also from what I hear, the evil Drow on the surface might have been a bit too involved in the more aggressive and antagonistic aspects of Drow culture, killing too many things, attacking too many people, PKing too much. For all these very good reasons the Drow were dealt with in two ways. The first was that they were restricted to the Underdark completely, the second was that a Drow roleplay policy was enacted (help drow alignment policy) that ensures that ALL Drow are evil unless they make special application, and even then they'd still be in the Underdark with all the evil Drow.

This situation went on for some time, but over time people have played less and less with the Drow for a number of reasons. Soemtimes there are more Drow, sometimes there are less, it goes in waves with a few people getting interested and bringing their friends, but in the end, almost all give up active roleplay of their Drow after a few months because of a few reasons which I will go over here.

1. Menzoberranzan not built to be an island - When Menzo was first built the Drow had access to the surface, so it didn't need to provide everything. A Drow who wanted to train in other things could go to the surface to gain skills and spells. Now I have never had a surfacer that was more than a test so I never realized how limited a lot of us are down here. No this game is not all about spells and skills and such, it's about RP and I think the Drow who do play do a great job with it. But consider that character growth in skill is something that reflects their growing in reputation and prestige, there's a very good reason the characters even in FR books are generally very powerful with lots of different skills and abilities... it's more interesting.

For those of you who think this is a silly complaint, consider that a Priestess in the Underdark can gain practically no favour once they reach a powerful level. Imagine only being able to train about 1/3 of the spells in your list. Then imagine that even of those spells you can train, most of them you can never cast due to too low favor. The same goes for mages, even those who can go to the trouble of getting scrolls from the surface can never gain the components to cast them. Even warriors can't gain much in the way of skills and feats that can make them competitive with surfacers. It's easy to say that the game isn't about skills or spells when you don't have to deal with this situation, but anyone who doubts me, i welcome you to make a Drow character and try it yourselves.

In line with this also, there is a largely limited area of action in the Underdark. The entire Underdark area to which we are restricted is easily less than half the size of Waterdeep. There is much less diversity of equipment, much less training and much fewer quests to deal with. I have spoken to surfacers who have hundreds of glory points. As the most active and well-traveled current Drow I have 13 glory points, at least 3 of those I received solely due to good RP. That is barely half enough to purchase a feat or stat point. Again, feats and stats are not the point of the game, but is there really anyone who can say that who hasn't used those glory points for something themselves? That is why they exist, to be used and to reward characters for doing things.

Not wanting to just whine about a problem, I have coded and sent in an extensive addition to the Underdark and would love to code more whether we reach the surface or not. I even bought a laptop with the idea expressly in mind that I can code more Underdark areas during my hours of downtime at work, so let's not get into, "Well if you don't like it just change it yourself." because I have tried to.

Continued...

Posted: **Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:08 pm**

2. Lack of RP opportunities in the Underdark - I have tried to arrange RP events in the Underdark, trade fairs, surface raids, most were minor successes, a few people showing up... a lot of them never materialized. During my year or so playing here, I think it is a year, there has not been one surface raid by the Drow, mostly because of a lack of interest from the Drow since so few generally log on. When a Drow raid is possible, people prefer to log on their surface alternates who they regularly play to help deal with the Drow raid than to log on their Drow they haven't played in months to raid the surface, I can't blame them. The inherent problem with this is that for most interesting RP to occur in the Underdark, it needs to be admin directed, and the admins have limited time and resources to help us, I understand that very well. That's the main reason I want to be allowed for us to help ourselves by allowing us to expand back out. I don't expect the admins to hang around waiting for us to be ready, to cancel their weekend plans in case three Drow log on and want to raid, but it seems that without a few Drow on, it's not worth much of anyone's time.

I love to Rp with other Drow, we scheme and talk. I write books from a Drow's point of view, I travel around, I do everything I can to make things interesting. Then you get to the point where you and all the Drow you know have been everywhere you can go. Where you can go and cycle the one area that you have been cycling since level 30 to make money. Where you literally have nothing to say to one another since nothing new has happened in months, that conversation just becomes a non-issue. Imagine being stuck on a desert island with someone for years... you'd end up running out of things to say pretty quickly, because even the things that do happen are not that interesting... a new Drow was around a few weeks ago, haven't seen him since. A Matron yelled at someone, these are literally the things Drow have to talk about to one another a lot of the time. I used to scheme with surfacers to start alliances between my House and them. Some were great about it, and liked just the Rp opportunity. Others were more pragmatic about it, because Drow have literally nothing of interest to offer surfacers. Our adamantine armor and weapons disintegrate. We're not particularly rich. I would love to get involved in intrigue on the surface... have Drow fighters supporting the whims of some mad cleric, have Drow bringing strange magic back down to the Underdark to give their house the upper hand. But there aren't even enough Drow that we can conceivably scheme against each other, most houses have at most one truly active player, some not even that. For instance, if I wanted to scheme against House Armgo, I'd be forced to kill the only Drow who actually spends any time with me, not a really fun prospect.

By allowing Drow onto the surface you'll open up the RP doors to them, they won't have to rely on a two or three times a RL year RP event that won't pan out, they can make their own RP up there, which will make the entire race more interesting and make more people want a Drow character. Drow will be able to do new things that will give them stuff to talk about, meet new people, do new quests, adventure like anyone else. That is what this game is about to me, being able to do new things and have fun while playing the characters you love, and I love my Drow as much as, if not more than most surfacers, it honestly takes a lot of dedication to play someone close to 700 hours in the same place doing the same things.

3. the times they are a changing - With the new kismet system, we have already ensured that only players who are experienced are even making Drow characters. With the Drow alignment policy, all Drow are forced to be evil. Both of these systems should be more than enough to prevent Drow from being Drizzt wannabes. And even if some honestly stupid player ignores the policy and tries to play someone like Drizzt, that is a matter between them and the admins in the same way that it would be if a Dwarf didn't talk like a Dwarf, he isn't RPing his character properly, but you don't punish all the Dwarves for it by restricting them to Mithril Hall.

If we accept that Drow players are experienced enough to get drow by having enough kismet, and they're all restricted to playing as evil Drow, can't we say that we trust them enough to allow them onto the surface again? The reason I bring up all of these points is that I think it has become, if not forgotten, that it has become a non-issue and people have become so used to the idea of Drow being completely restricted that no one thinks twice about it, but for a Drow it's a terrible state of events. I am glad I never had a surface character before my Drow, and that I started lpaying with a friend who was down here with me almost constantly, because I can guarantee I would have become bored quickly like most other people do, realizing how much more interesting things are on the surface. Sure there will be Drow who are jerks who try to get around the RP policy, or who play Drow just to be jerks, but the same could be said of any race and any evil alignment. But Orcs aren't restricted to their orc town, and evil people aren't restricted to Zhentil Keep just because some of them might be jerks, and I don't think the Drow are being treated like individuals, they're being punished for the actions of a bunch of people in the past who were in a completely different situation. I love this MUSH, I wouldn't have spent so much time on it if I didn't, and I will always work to make the Underdark a really cool place. I am starting to get the hang of coding and I'd love to make a huge Underdark area comparable with a big surface area, encompassing other races and vast wilds, it's a big project, but I also love to just play the game, and I think the Drow could become a much more interesting part of the game than they are now, with benefits for everyone.

If you've read through all of this, congratulations... I hope you'll bear with me a little more. I just want to come up with a few quick counterarguments to reasons the Drow shouldn't be allowed back up.

1. Drow wouldn't want to go to the surface - One of the most exciting things in Drow society is the surface raid. There they get a chance to revenge themselves upon the Elves and to prove their mettle to Lloth. Lloth herself seeks to gain followers on the surace, and in 3rd edition Forgotten Realms, the Drow have sprung onto the surface like never before, colonizing the forests and moving into the world at large. To say drow don't want to go there has no real basis. A Drow's home is Menzoberranzan, but they leave it just like a human whose home is Waterdeep would leave it to adventure.

2. Drow would just kill stuff and PKill, or sit around the square at Waterdeep. - Drow on the surface would have to abide by strict rules, oging into cities where every guard would kill them would obviously be dangerous. other cities might be a bit more grudging in their acceptance, like Zhentil Keep. But Drow don't sit around their own version of the town square even in Menzoberranzan, I doubt theyd want to sit around with a bunch of humans and elves in a good city, they'd be putting their lives n the line. As for Drow just pkilling or attacking people, Drow abide by the same rules and restrctions everyone else does... including the fact that Pkill is a serious thing not to be taken lightly. I have met a dozen surfacers and only once did it evolve into combat, and that could have easily been avoided by either party. If you trust Rangers and druids in general to not sit around Waterdeep square, how can you not trust Drow? No one ever considers restricting those classes to stay in outdoor rooms only, but no one seems to think about Drow being restricted to Menzoberranzan being in essence the same thing.

If anyone has any reasons why, even with a kismet restriction and RP alignment policy, that Drow alone of all races/classes should be restricted to a few hundred rooms and a lifetime of mediocrity as characters compared to others I would love to hear them here so we can debate it, and if you don't believe that being a Drow is as hard as I have said, come make one and experience it yourself. I'm sure that anyone who plays an active Drow would agree with me. If the admins determine that Drow need more restriction on who can go to the surface, I'm sure we can come up with some other restrictions apart from an all-out ban. Perhaps a level restriction, or an IC organization that determines among the Drow themselves who is ready and a good enough example of the Drow to journey up there, but in the end, allowing Drow to get to the surface would be as simple as putting in a room with a portal and a level restriction on it, which could be done in about two minutes. I think what the Drow want more than anything else is just the ability to make the most of their characters like you have the chance to do on the surface. And that's the only point of this post, just to see if we can spur some discussion and see if that can happen.

Posted: **Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:26 pm**

I agree with Solaghar entirely, as I have spent nearly 50 hours on my drow in the past week. I have been heavily addicted to the drow rp, but, as he has said, it is mediocre at best. Most of the time, I find that I am the only drow on, and spend hours sitting around waiting for someone to rp with. I strongly feel something must be done, and agree that with the new systems installed into the game, that most players would be responsible enough to handle going to the surface for rp. I am sure I am not the only side to this argument and I am anxious to hear some thoughts.

Thanks

--Chris--
Arlen and Glogruth

Posted: **Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:51 pm**

One thing I'd even suggest is if the admins determine that it's worth considering, allowing Drow onto the surface again even in a limited fashion, why not test the idea by allowing some Drow onto the surface? See what they do with their time up there, if at the end of a week or two you have a bunch of Drizzts or if they've maintained their Drow natures. If they ended up acting like non-Drow then I'll be the first to say that allowing them onto the surface en masse was a bad idea and I'll never mention the subject again, content to just work on expanding the Underdark with the admin's blessing, which I hope to do anyway, regardless of the outcome

The Drow can police themselves and their own behavior to a large extent too. Any Drow who comes to the surface will find that his equipment will disintegrate, that he is alone in a hostile land with nothing to offer and his skills and strengths in general are much less than people of a comparable level he might meet. If you were to allow only say, level 40 and above Drow onto the surface, then the Drow would have already had to spend a good deal of time in Menzoberranzan, deal with other Drow and familiarize themselves with Drow RP before heading up. I know that as a Drow, if I heard that someone from my House was consorting with surfacers in a friendly fashion, becoming lax in their worship to Lloth, forgetting their duty to their House, I would seek them out and have some harsh words for them. I'm sure the other houses would do the same. Also I can't say that I know for sure, but there must be some disadvantage coded for Drow in the sun since there is a feat that works against that disadvantage. All I ask is that everyone takes a look at this objectively, if a successful test actually makes things more fun for everyone involved, it could be made permanent.

Posted: **Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:34 pm**

I also agree with this, though I have not a very active drow, I have found down there that there are few drow and RP opportunities are scarce. I think letting drow onto the surface would allow many more opportunities, for ALL races of ALL alignments. I also don't think that it would be abused much such as drow PKing everyone they see. As if you look at the orcs, they are similar to the drow in some senses, yet there aren't many PKills caused by orcs, or other major OOC problems. And they aren't forced to be level 40 or up to get out of the orc camp

Just my thoughts.

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:32 am**

Solaghar again comes up with a very good point. This, would be great for drow, and I agree with Solaghar on many points he brings up. Drows are very limited in their options, and you may notice that this often deters players(who normally would play them) from playing them. You often find yourself by yourself training, with the only slightly interesting place to go to is SkullPort. Like Solaghar I have put many hours onto my drow, and find that I can only sit for so many hours with nobody to RP with and nothing to do but hack'n'slash train. Or just sit in one place. I believe that the drow, if they were to have access to the surface, would be able to further their roleplaying experience. I know from a personall viewpoint that this would give my own drow much ability to further his RP, which has been on a hold for many months, due to nothing changing.

Drow were my first characters here on FK, they will always be my favorite. I just hope that they can be much more fun then they currently are.

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:34 am**

I do agree with the level requirement, as it would be quite tough for even the most experienced drow warrior, wizard, or priestess/priest, on the surface, much less someone with even less experience. A level restriction would do good to keep this safe, but let's see what others have to say.

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:36 am**

Putting a level restriction on it makes sense for a few reasons. It makes sure that any new Drow are forced to spend the first few weeks at least in the Underdark, interacting only with other Drow. They won't be tempted to just act like any surfacer they start hanging out with if they can go to the surface as soon as they pass level 8, which I am against. It also gives older Drow good reasons to come back to the city more often than if there were nothing there, to help teach the new members of their houses who will most likely be their best allies on the surface, as well as to learn what's going on with the other Houses and see who is doing the best. The Drow in Menzoberranzan lack any real rivalry, the major reason being I believe that the only outlet for rivalry in Menzoberranzan is violence since there are no resources or alliances to fight over, almost all of the Drow have the exact same equipment, spells and skills. The only thing of any worth is the lives of the soldiers, and since no one really enjoys constant PKill, there's no rivalry.

I want to keep a good Drow culture going, I think we do a fairly good job of that at the moment, and I don't want to lose it, but I think it's worth it to have more Drow with more stuff to do and have a few who aren't the best RPers, just like any other race or class, than to have only the most dedicated RPers in the Underdark who are still limited in so many ways. I guess the crux of my argument, in the end, is that at this point Drow are being treated differently than everyone else, even Orcs, for the actions of some other Drow from before most of us were even playing. Yes Drow have high RP requirements, maybe the highest of any player race at the moment, but keeping us in Menzoberranzan doesn't mean that those bad players won't exist, it just means that they're stuck with us in Menzo too

And the good players who would love to RP their Drow out in the open and get a chance to show others how Drow should act, rarely get that chance.

Some of the most fun I've had has come after sitting in Skullport for days on end until some surfacer makes his way down, then trying to tempt them into betraying their ideals or some other little diabolical evil game just for kicks. But most people aren't willing to wait for days on end sitting somewhere in the hopes that someone will walk by, and I wouldn't blame them. Most Drow can't even make that journey to Skullport, so in that way I am lucky that I have even that option. All I'm asking for is a chance for us to prove that we're as responsible as anyone else in the game by allowing us access to the other probably 99.9% of the MUD that we currently don't have access to so that we can prove that things are different now, in a large part based on what the admins did to change things, but also because different players can handle themselves differently and the current crop of Drow seem to be good people overall to me.

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2005 10:30 am**

I agree with the original post, being a drow has been the most fun i have had on this game, the RP when it happens is quite intense and often spiced with a hint of danger (Thats what happens when you are all evil). The roleplay enviroment of Menzo is very good and the interactions between the houses, Matron mothers and guilds provides plenty of oppurtunity to develop enemys and allys.

It would be good to do something to encourage the development of more Drow characters, as i see it at the moment the biggest problem is the artifical limits that being in Menzo places on character devlopement. It is not much fun to go round the same areas waiting for a skill increase in one of the few skills that you can develop. This also leads to characters with very similar skill sets since there is not a choice of feats and skills, often leading to spare feat points!. Many common skill and spells are missing from those that we can learn. Also some feats can be learned but not their prerequistes.

I also agree that any way of reaching surface should be so difficult that only high level characters can even attempt it, if the route was through skullport it would go some way towards this ideal. Pherhaps if one of the ships from the port allowed high level drow to travel to some point on the surface, i do not think this should be Waterdeep because being a nasty Drow rather interferes with the nice roleplay rules of Waterdeep. Pherhaps Westgate which seems a very chaotic place would be a suitable point to surface?.

Overall being a drow is great for roleplay, and i certainly would not choose to be good, it is much more fun being evil!. Interaction with surface folk would also point up this difference more strongly and the resulting roleplay would not automatically be a PKILL since Drow do not just want corpses it is in some ways more important to prove your superiority to these surface dwellers by not killing them, leaving them to tell of there encounter and increasing the legend that is the Drow.

I can see that for some drow there would be a temptation to stay on the surface, but it should be a very dangerous thing to do with most good citys hands turned agianst you and nowhere that you would be totally safe. It makes returning to Menzo a good thing bringing new skills and supplies to add to the ongoing storys of conflict within the city.

Duranamir

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2005 6:32 pm**

I think it would open up a lot of RP oppurtunities. I agree with the ideas presented so far.

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:00 pm**

I agree with the ideas presented here as far as the concept that drow should be allowed onto the surface in limited numbers (like using a level limit). I do think, however, that a new area might need to be constructed. I don't think getting to the surface should be as easy as walking 10 or 15 rooms out of Menzo and stepping out into the sunlight.

I think it would be best if a difficult area was designed as a sort of barrier to drow going to the surface. Difficult mobs and a long walk would make it difficult for lone drow to get to the surface, helping to ensure that only evil drow make it to the surface (since I don't think most drow would be eager to group with a goodie-two-shoes drow).

Even with this area in place, I still think it would be important to have the level restriction, because without it, it would be possible for people to drag lower level characters along though the hard areas.

The possibility for this kind of roleplay is enormous. The underdark could be extended to attach to Mithril Hall, allowing drow vs. dwarf RP on a regular basis, and if/when Blingdenstone (deep gnome city) comes into game, the Menzo/Blingdenstone conflict will have new meaning, as they'll likely both be competing to have access to the surface.

It does open up some problems, though. For instance, what sort of protections would need to be coded for Menzo so that surface groups don't regularly venture down there to attack it? Some kind of coded guard response might be needed, as I can't see a group of (non-enslaved) humans and elves wandering around in Menzo without being noticed fairly quickly.

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:36 pm**

I like the idea Balek, to further expand on your idea what about a area with strong mobs and a long walk to get to a portal that you must pay to get through to go through the surface? And have the portal back to the area hidden, and if a group do manage to scathe past perhaps have a guardian (the one you pay to enter the portal) not let them pass?

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2005 10:18 pm**

I will also have to agree here. I belive the RP that can come from having some of the more experienced drow coming to the surface can be great. I recently had one of my characters come across a couple of drow in Skullport and the RP that comes along with Drow meeting non drow is very exciting. I think it is a very well thought out and good proposal......It has my vote!

Posted: **Fri Mar 18, 2005 11:35 pm**

I agree with Solagher's post, a way to the surface would open up many opportunities for RP for the drow, and those few that do play their drow, especially Solagher, who has played his drow religiously for a long long time, have proved that they can RP drow and it wont be the same as it was.

Ill just throw out two ideas that I was thinking of for a way to the surface:

1. A portal that is kept hidden in Sorcere and would require the approval of the heads of the Academy (if and when the org was in), this would allow the responsable players who head the Academy and know how drow are supposed to RP to judge and make sure none who do not RP their drow well (i.e. arent evil) cannot use the portal. Perhaps this would allow a whole nother quest, as those heads could require some task be done for them before their approval is met, perhaps proved through a token or something of the sort.

2. A long and dangerous trek with many hard mobs and a level requirement through the Underdark and caverns to the surface. I agree with Balek's idea all the way in this, the area should be hard and still require a level requirement. This would perhaps require the approval as above, as from what ive read, all surface raids are approved and organized by the Academy.

When upon the surface, it would be quite interesting, as well as quite hard, they would have to leave their equipment in the caverns or Menzoberranzan, (perhaps there could be a storeroom like room that saves equipment in it to ensure that it is not lost if the game crashes or the like) or their equipment would just disintegrate, they would face prejudice (or create it) and couldnt enter any cities (talk about the orcs having it hard

) and having severe penalties during the daylight hours as their eyes were still practically blinded by the sun.

There could even be minor areas upon the surface for drow to RP in, elven encampments (killed for the glory of Lloth), surface camps of Vhaerun (killed for the glory of Lloth), rebels of Eliastree (you get the picture).

Just wanted to throws these out as to offer the many RP opportunities this would open for drow.

Posted: **Sat Mar 19, 2005 10:28 pm**

First of all I'm glad so many people agree with the idea that the Drow deserve a chance at the surface. As for all of the different ways they can go about it, after some thought it seems to me like the best way about it would be to simply put a portal in Skullport, or just open up the way that surfacers get back to the surface from there to Drow, to be honest I don't even really know what that is though.

There are only a few Drow who know the way to Skullport and while it's not something those of us who do keep secret, it's definetely not common knowledge. Those who seek out the surface can find their way, but there's already a level restriction that would work against those who would want to go, as well as the fact that the path itself is daunting and full of danger, even those of us who are high level don't often make the trip alone. The Drow who make the journey to Skullport in general are already looking for something more than Menzoberranzan can offer, it'd be simple to just fiddle with things there and make that the exit. I fully support the extending of the Underdark and the creation of new areas full of interesting things and quests, but then you get into who is going to do that... and how long it might take to get that done. I'd personally rather that the surface exit, if the admins decide it's somethign they want to do, be located somewhere that exists, and the expansion of the Underdark can go ahead as well, but they needn't be related exactly. Because it's easy to say, "Someone should make a huge new area full of quests and monsters to get there" but then we get into who is going to do it... I don't want to heap more work on the admins.

Posted: **Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:47 am**

The route to skullport is already almost suicidally hard even when one knows what to do, it would also make a good first stop before journeying to the surface because you can aquire surface weapons and equipment there.

The route from skullport to the surface can then impose a further restriction either by having to get through undermountain, again incredibly dangerous but will end up in Waterdeep ?. Which i do not think is a good idea or by using a restricted ship or portal to move the character to some other point on the surface away from all the "Nice" people.

Duranamir

Posted: **Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:04 am**

I like the ideas, too..and Skullport is the most logical place for the place for Drow to end up..also, there could be a link into Mithril Hall already, but since there are wards to keep evil dwarves out, that just might work on evil drow from getting into Mithril Hall proper.. wards and such, I'd imagine...I can already see 5 dwarves trying to argue with 5 drow who don't speak the same language. No.. wait...dwarves probably wouldn't even talk with them, just kill them.

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Allowing Drow to return to the surface... a discussion

Allowing Drow to return to the surface... a discussion

RE: Drow on the surface