New Faith Commands

Dugald · Post by **Dugald** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:36 am

I was wondering what other people would think of this - perhaps allowing everyone of any status in the faith, to be able to faith demote themselves...or a new verb that would do essentially the same thing. Like a drop faith verb.

I just think it's kind of silly to have to seek out a faith manager to get their permission to no longer pray to their god. Not a big deal in the slightest, but if it's easy enough to do, I'd like that option.

Raona · Post by **Raona** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 12:06 pm

Dugald - I'm not sure at what point on the faith ladder you are suggesting this be offered - if it's not possible for someone who is "enquiring," I'm in total agreement. But at any point after one is faithed (is given a quest, and certainly gets their symbol), I think it *very wise* for a player to be forced to consult with a member of their current faith about the possible consequences of renouncing their god, before they be allowed to do so. (Be it 100% realistic or not...) Those consequences may be of great...interest.

Elwin · Post by **Elwin** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:16 pm

I agree with Raona. If it is perhaps an enquirer or hopeful, then I think that would not be so bad. But, once a God has accepted you into the faith, He/She is not going to be very happy if you decide to leave. That Deity would either kill you, make you a lot weaker, or perhaps even ignore you comepletely should you ever need their help or pray to them again.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:41 pm

I also believe you need to send in an application as well... switching faiths is not taken lightly in FK

Gwain · Post by **Gwain** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:15 pm

There is a kismet cost to abandoning a faith once you have been faithed and there are also ic consequences for abandoning your diety. I believe it has been mentioned on the forum, that if you constantly change faiths while being a hopeful or questess without good reason that you may be subject to a harsher faith quest than you would be given otherwise. Of course this is all subjective, depending on the diety and the reasons for abandoning said faith. I would think it would be alright at the enquirer level to abandon a faith for another if you decide such faith is not for you.

Dugald · Post by **Dugald** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:00 pm

My character is not actually faithed, so I'm pretty sure I don't need to send in an application - but please correct me if I'm wrong.

It's really not a big deal to run around and find the faith manager my character hasn't ever met - it just seems a little ooc. I was just curious if anyone else would like a verb option of demoting themselves...I don't understand why that would only be possible by the faith manager or deity.

Elwin · Post by **Elwin** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:09 am

I would still send in an application so that the Imms know your intentions. That way, perhaps they can watch your RP. There might still be a kismet cost for a hopeful or questee, though I do not think it would be as high as a full member.

Raona · Post by **Raona** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:27 pm

Dugald, could you please specify what your current faith level actually is, and whether you have been quested (given a quest to perform)? In the absence of this information, I fear you are getting all manner of advice that may or may not apply to you.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:33 pm

well... on the topic of this... something just came to mind...

You can not advance unless cirten people let you... well... in some faiths... they are not always on... or... never on...

could we have a "request advance" or something on the lines... so when they DO or in the case of never... another IMM could see and watch out for their RP and advance them when they feel...

I very much like the new faith system

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:51 pm

Zach wrote:could we have a "request advance" or something on the lines... so when they DO or in the case of never... another IMM could see and watch out for their RP and advance them when they feel

There have been cases of imms advancing someone in their faith status when they are aware of it. And as far as letting the faith managers and/or imms know. They all have knowledge of who's pledging a faith when they list the faith using "faith list". As long as you've gone thru the process of faith equire, and finally faith apply (understand that these can be done in front of *any* faithful, including NPCs.), you will be on the faith list, and it is known that you are applying for a quest.

While the faith system has given the faith managers and imms the means to better address the faith desires of those pledging, the same patience and endurance should be expected as under the old system. As long as there's an active deity/faith manager for the faith, we'll all get our chance, for those that lack a faith manager, I'm pretty sure the imms are taking the steps necessary to pick suitable candidates to manage the faith.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:01 pm

I was speaking more on the lines of Initate - Inner Circle.

Lorion · Post by **Lorion** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:40 pm

Personally I do not think that this is something that you can apply for. I think this is similar to faith managers and high priests: The immortal or the faith manager will choose candidates he or she sees fit. I do not think other imms should have a say in there, as long as you are already faithed. If you are, as Kregor assumed in his post, not faithed yet, then it might be a different matter. These are just my thoughts, how I would handle it were I an immortal/faith manager though :p

Rhytania · Post by **Rhytania** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 12:31 am

As a faith manager I would love to see people take care of their own more. I may not approach every body in my faith all the time, and I know for fact that there has been some great RP's between its members that sadly Im not ICly in the know due to my lack of omnipotency. I would like to take a second and preach that not only should you look to advance yourself, but also take care of the people underneath. If you see something good happen that someone should get recognized for that is a hopeful or initiate, tell your faith manager, innercircle, prelate ect ect. eventually once everyone starts getting the ball rolling it would get to the point that when you feel your character is ready, approach someone a bit higher and tell them that you feel your ready to take on more responsibilty. By the time your request gets to me I should have heard atleast a few things about your character to judge if your ready or not. so this is more of a call to the Prelates and Innercircles, to take the young ones under your wing, and look after them. Also dont be afraid to use the note system to adress your FM. I may not always have time to rp but i make it a point to at least check the notes failry often in case someone needs to arrange something.

Dugald · Post by **Dugald** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 4:21 am

I was more or less just curious if anyone else felt that it was kind of silly you needed someone else to remove you from a faith.

But, from watching it play out, it's not a big deal at all - and any time put into changing it probably wouldn't even be noticed execpt for the select few who have characters undergo significant changes during an age where their character is more impressionable than an older character.

So, not a big deal - imo - I'm very happy on how it turned out.

Mariela · Post by **Mariela** » Tue May 16, 2006 7:24 pm

Ok. A real life cirucmstance involving religion.. which is essentially what "faiths" in game are. Religions.

In most religions, not all, there are people who are appointed to guard the souls of the populace. Priests, Teachers, Decons, ect ect ect. In most religions, if you are a consistant in your faith. You know, you go to all the bake sales, you attend church regularly, you hold a possition in the faith, even if it's greeter at the door, a consistant member of your faith.

If you decide on afternoon to not go. And then do not go back for a month or more, or hell soemtimes it takes less than that, someone calls. Someone comes by to see if you are dead or alive, and basically find out if there is some sort of spot you are in that you cannot get out of. People hunt you down and find out if there is anything wrong.

That is why you shouldn't be able to just discard your faith. If your score sheet says that you follow X god, (Like let's say Mystra), if it says that you are a follower of Mystra, that means you went to church enough to be known as a follower. You are reconized as someone who is devote. Which means, if one day you decide to throw your holy symbol on the ground and stomp on it, or even stay at home and watch the Griffon Bowl Game, someone in your faith should come around to find out why you lost your faith.

Will it be 100% noticable right away? No. Probably not. However, word will get around that you think Lloth had the right idea, and that Cyric is your best bud when you originally started out praising Mystra.

What is the long and the short of it?
All religions want to keep their followers.
Stalking the members is not out of the question and encouraged.
And I believe there is a guantlet you gotta run to leave one. (I'm kinda kidding.)

Being able to demote yourself by command is weak. For tell me a God wouldn't notice you excomunicating yourself and just go, "Psh, I need to go shopping! Time for my tan!" And just ignore it. Nuh-uh.

*Brought to you by the Campaign to get Mariela's player to shut up for five seconds by her character Mariela*

Dugald · Post by **Dugald** » Tue May 16, 2006 9:07 pm

You're making a point about (i assume) abrahamic faiths (monotheistic) in the real world, and faiths in a multiple /pantheon/ fantasy world where all the pantheon gods are known to exist. Faiths aren't religions...a pantheon is a religion...you aren't abandoning your religion because you no longer want to specifically thoroughly worship only one god in the pantheon.

While it's not an issue for my character anymore, it wasn't so much that you couldn't just blow off temple to watch the griffon bowl and that's that...but that you have to wait around for the faith manager - I was lucky that the faith my character was in is one where the faith manager is accessible.

You don't need the faith manager to get your foot in the door, you don't need even a PC to get your foot in the door, or even a named npc. I like all those aspects, it makes no sense to have to need a PC to decide you're interested in a religion. But on that flip side, not only do you need a PC to remove yourself from the "i just heard about this religion and I'd like to know more" stage...you needa da freakin' pope to absolve you out of it - and even then, if ircly, the pope couldnt demote me completely out to agnostic.

I have no idea how hard it'd be to implement being able to faith demote yourself out of the worship of one god...but if it can be done, to the point of a non quested faithed individual can just demote himself out in the presence of an npc (just like you faith yourself in) - it could save pc's time, waukeen's player time, and faith manager's time.

I know the arguement of "being faithed is a very serious deal in forgotten realms" and while I politely disagree with the severity that is placed on it in the game (outside of paladins, clerics, druids) - the first level of the faith is just showing up and getting the pamphlet...there isn't possibly a way to suggest that is some kind of instant bond with the god.

--------------------

But, it worked out well for me, and I consider myself lucky - icly and oocly. I could just see situations where it wouldn't work out well. And I feel being able to remove yourself from a deity's favor, just makes more sense than needing the pope, or the god, or Waukeen's player, to help you out.

I know the reason for it, is because it costs kismet to change your religion, but the faith system has changed enough now, that I think you should be able to demote yourself out without a kismet cost at the lower levels.

Lathlain · Post by **Lathlain** » Wed May 17, 2006 9:14 am

In terms of being a faith enquirer, yes, I agree that you should have free scope to drop and change at will. From anything above here, with increasing levels of severity, dropping yourself out of a faith should be an action to be considered very carefully.

A problem with a universal 'drop faith' command is that it is a blanket effect that, while suitable to some faiths, may not be to others. For instance imagine you had pledged yourself to Cyric as a hopeful. This means ICly going to a player or a faith NPC to apply, which in turn means that your intention is known to the clergy. Suppose you then decided wanton murder wasn't for you, and decided to trot off and follow Ilmater instead. Do you suppose Cyric's faithfuls are going to like this? In all probability, you would find yourself actively disliked, and not so much ignored as impaled.

Another thing to consider is that pledging yourself to a deity is more than simply attending church. In all actuality the majority of people in the realms wouldn't be faithed in the sense that we're talking. Sailors will pay lipservice to Umberlee, but they will likely also pray to Tymora (Or even Beshaba) if the tides turn. This doesn't make them a faithful, however. Faithfuls are above the general church goers, hence the fact that you can only follow one deity. Dropping out of a faith isn't like neglecting to attend church - It's like kicking your god's puppy and ridiculing their godmother and then running off into the night.

I think what it boils down to is the necessity to think your faith applying through carefully before doing so. By all means if you're willing to accept the IC implications of renouncing a deity, send an application for it and play away, but otherwise tread carefully. These are real deities with real wraths

Dugald · Post by **Dugald** » Wed May 17, 2006 10:50 am

It makes me feel so good to hear someone actually say that - hardly anyone acknowledges that above 99% of toril are "agnostic" according to the faith rankings set up mechanically.

But you still get the "what god have you chosen" conversations all the time, and it gets awkward when you try to explain that you worship a pantheon when you know ooc it's likely because the player is just use to the mud version of PC normalcy.

I agree with you mostly, I'd certainly say that the first and second faithed level would be something you could drop with no serious threat to your life (as opposed to just first)...And I'd say that because, at both those levels, you're just a normal person - you've done nothing to show anything - even Cyric clerics wouldn't kill folk (they'd want to) who showed up for a ceremony or two and decided it wasnt for them to worship on a daily basis, and kind of left...it just wouldn't be feasible. And on that same note, for every Cyric, there is a god that wouldnt put their faith manager in peril if they decided to leave.

I understand it's an ooc issue, and I accept that. But I sincerely think, and I wouldnt suggest it if I didnt, that it'd lower player frustration with being stuck in a faith that IC doesnt make any sense for them to still be in.

Once you faith quest, I think that should be the kismet loss and application to get out. That's a life milestone, representing an entire change of lifestyle and world viewpoint - but before that...it's just deciding it's not for you. I can't imagine a god cares if someone was /almost/ this and /almost/ that....it doesn't mean anything. Doing the quest though, and following through, that is the metaphorical scale that shows their worth.

Kilak · Post by **Kilak** » Wed May 17, 2006 1:25 pm

I've always enjoyed playing games in a polythiestic world. For most of the characters I've played in RPGs, I've never gone out of my way to pick a religion unless I was playing a more "holy" type character. I make it a point to openly praise at least 3 gods with my dwarven character on FK. This is because they are all in the Dwarven Pantheon. Should they be upset because I'm not worshipping one exclusively? I wouldn't think so as their tenets don't clash and I serve them pretty well.

Yes, some will worship one god above all others, but I'm willing to bet that your average serf won't.

Jedan · Post by **Jedan** » Thu May 18, 2006 2:49 am

==Yes, some will worship one god above all others, but I'm willing to bet that your average serf won't.==

I'm not actually sure I'd agree with that, and this goes partially to Dugald's comments about those awkward "What God have you chosen?".

You average serf might not be a faithful in the FK sense, where he's expected to go about preaching the word of his deity, smiting their foes etc. etc. But a farmer can be devoted to Chauntea and show it by doing nothing more than spending his entire life tending to his fields/livestock etc.

My understanding of the Toril cosmology is that taking a patron God determines the nature of your afterlife. If you never choose a deity, you get stuck in the Wall of the Faithless for eternity, if you only pay lip service to a deity when it's convenient for you, you spend eternity wandering about the City of the Dead, neither of which I would think is a particularly attractive option to most people.

So even Joe Bob the peasant farmer, while he might routinely send small prayers, or make donations to multiple deities based on their portfolio's, would probably still have a particular deity he venerates more than others. It's just as said, a "Faithful" in FK goes quite a bit above and beyond just attending Church Bake Sales and whatnot.

New Faith Commands

New Faith Commands

Not a light matter

In regard to Dugald in particular

Removal of Faith