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forget I asked

My argument then is...If it s "not that kind of mud... why do we have the coded diety Loviatar whos Portfolio reads like a BDSM instruction manual Razz we have "darin leather Body harnessess and people who moan when they are smacked... and the common salutation is " May your Pain bring you Pleasure" The picture in faiths and pantheons of Loviatar really speaks for itself Razz there is no other way to take it.. a scantily clad woman in leather with a whip being tortured to ecstasy... really... how is *this* fitting in to those rules that disallow someone who looks for the pleasures in life in the good things ( and cats! maybe its.. the cats... )*ponders* lol

Let me state here.. that this is not meant to be me tearing apart other people and their RPs... I am simply stating what I have seen.

This greatly pains me. As one of the most active, possibly the only most active, female player of Loviatar to have this said hurts me on a personal level. Not because this is how you view it, but because you directly state you have seen this kind of rp from Lovites. This is not RP I have been part of myself. Because if you truely do your homework on Loviatar, you will learn that that is not at all what she is about. And when I did play Truescar to the faith it was most certainly not something I condoned, and even better, not something I saw ever. Now if it is you haven't seen me doing this, which is clear since I have not, then I ask, who? All zero of the active female lovites? I really feel like pointing a finger at the Lovite faith is making a scape goat out of them.

Lliiran's look for pleasures in LIFE. Sharressans look for pleasure in specific aspects of life. Sunites are of LOVE, not LUST. Sure, many gods hold pieces of other gods portfolios in their own, and I know Sharess does, too. But that does not change the fact of what her main piece in her portfolio is.

-Danica

I think, the thing about Sharess comes from te 2nd edition Sharess who was the godess of Lust, known widely for her party which is what you would call total "orgies" (not sure of the word in english, the thing were everyone "sleep" with everyone).

Now, with Wotc coming for the 3rd ed. and the politically correctness they imposed to the FR, they removed Lust as a portfolio. But still her dogma did not changed that far, it is just hidden under smoother words.

Dogma: Life is to be lived to its fullest, in decadent sensual fulfillment of yourselves and others. That which is good is pleasurable and that which is pleasurable is good. Pleasure is to be sought out at every opportunity and life is to be lived as one endless revel. Spread the bounty of Sharess so that all may join in the endlesss revel of life and bring joy to all those in pain. Infinite experiences await those who would explore, so try the new as well as savoring the old.

Of course, you can understand it the "good" way, but if you look at the 2nd ed Sharess, you just know what it really means. And that pleasure means adult pleasure.

For those who don't really know what Hedonism, her main portfolio now, is:
Hedonism (Greek: hēdonē "pleasure" + –ism) describes any way of thinking that gives pleasure a central role. Hedonism can be generally summed up as "pleasure is the highest good" or — in an ethical formulation — "whatever causes pleasure is right." Furthermore, Hedonism can be defined as the doctrine holding that behavior is motivated by the desire for pleasure and the avoidance of pain.

The hedonistic view focuses on increasing pleasure and reducing pain. Note that while the terms were originally employed literally, this is no longer the case. There seems to be no common ground on what actually constitutes pleasurable or painful activities. The hedonistic philosophy usually has a sexual or libidinal connotation.
It is the word that were used to describe Rome's decadence by historians.


Now, about Loviatar, it has nothing to do with BDSM.
Her Dogma is : The world is filled with pain and torment, and the best that one can do is to suffer those blows that cannot be avoided and deal as much pain back to those who offend. Kindnesses are the best companions to hurts, and increase the intensity of suffering. Let mercy of sudden abstinence from causing pain and of providing unlooked-for healing come over you seldom, but at whim, so as to make folk hope and increase the Mystery of Loviatar's Mercy. Unswerving cruelty will turn all folk against you. Act alluring, and give pain and torment to those who enjoy it as well as to those who deserve it most or would be most hurt by it. The lash, fire, and cold are the three pains that never fail the devout. Spread Loviatar's teachings whenever punishment is meted out. Pain tests all, but gives strength of spirit and true pleasure to the hardy and the true. There is no true punishment if the punisher knows no discipline. Wherever a whip is, there is Loviatar. Fear her—and yet long for her.

What they enjoy the most is giving pain to others, and they strongly beleive that some pains can't be avoided, so let's enjoy it instead of getting depressive and all, it's is as much psychological pain than physical one. Now, if one play as a Lovite just going around getting herself whipped for pleasure, that person completly miss what Loviatar is about.

Her rites often include self-flagellation by walking on broken glasses, thorns and all, but so do Ilmater, Lovite do this because they think that it would reinforce them for the pain to come that is not possible to avoid anyway while Ilmater's do this as they think there is a fixed amount of suffering (both physical and psychological) in the world and by taking it they would remove it from others.

On Sune, she is the goddess of beauty above all then of love and passions but she frowns upon lust as she believe in "true love" (real passions like Romeo and Juliet), not one-night stories.

But then, it's my personnal opinion and nothing else.

Brar

Ahem... Let me step in and say something. =D

Her rites often include self-flagellation by walking on broken glasses, thorns and all, but so do Ilmater, Lovite do this because they think that it would reinforce them for the pain to come that is not possible to avoid anyway while Ilmater's do this as they think there is a fixed amount of suffering (both physical and psychological) in the world and by taking it they would remove it from others.

Actually, the only Ilmateri who do this are a sect known as the Flagellants. They are considered extremists and do not use the same symbol as mainstream Ilmateri(They use the old bloodied rack rather than the bound hands). Also, many Ilmateri who practice self-mutilation or self-imposed hardships do so in order to better be able to withstand those hardships when the time comes.(Hence Ilmater's portfolio including perserverence and endurance) rather than to revel in pain or anything like that. Of course, there are other sects who worship Ilmater and practice self mutiliation, ect., but they do not receive spells from Ilmater(Because they misinterpret His dogma) and so cannot be considered faithfuls.

As for Loviatar being BDSMish, I think you said it yourself, Brar.

Act alluring, and give pain and torment to those who enjoy it

Pain tests all, but gives strength of spirit and true pleasure

Fear her—and yet long for her

Yeah... That sounds a little sadistic to me.

As for actually seeing this sort of Lovite RP happen in game, I cannot say that I have seen it.

Jaenoic wrote: As for Loviatar being BDSMish, I think you said it yourself, Brar.

Act alluring, and give pain and torment to those who enjoy it

Pain tests all, but gives strength of spirit and true pleasure

Fear her—and yet long for her

.

Excuse me, but I get quite on the bad side when half quoted and those quotes taken out of context.
It is

Act alluring, and give pain and torment to those who enjoy it as well as to those who deserve it most or would be most hurt by it

Pain tests all, but gives strength of spirit and true pleasure to the hardy and the true

Wherever a whip is, there is Loviatar. Fear her—and yet long for her.

Please if you quote a text, try to quote the entire sentence, not just a part of it to make it lost its main idea.

Now, of course they are sadisctic, like any being who uses torture or who enjoy hurting others and such, meaning all evil.

Thanks,
Brar

edited 8/2006 to remove post

I am saying why can we not let a faith who looks on good pleasure ( which could mean anything from canoodling to having a nice box of fancy chocolates! lol ) into the game.

Well, Sharess do not look on 'good' pleasure, she looks on sexual (let me use the word just once) pleasure, nothing more, nothing less.
Sharess rituals are big parties where everyone have sex with every other people presents, and her thing is to have as much as possible with as much people as possible.

Now, about Lovite, it sure can sounds like sexual toys, but it is "torture". I assure you it has nothing to do with any of that kind of pleasure.

Now, let me quote the Faiths and Pantheons:

Clerics of the Maiden of Pain work tirelessly to cause suffering both widespread and personnal. This work may be as brutal as flogging an encountered band of orcs until they flee or as subtle as breaking hearts among young noble by pretending to falling in love with the gallants (while disguising one's Loviatan faith), working to break up existing amours and friendship, and engaging in scandalous dalliances before coldly spurning the victims and departing. Being a good actor and of striking beauty (or experienced in using spells to appear so) are very useful traits for a Loviatan but the most succesful Loviatans are those who understand the ways and natures of folk and so know just how to cause them the most pain and to manipulate them toward the end.
Clerics of Loviatar pray for their spells in the morning while kneeling after striking themselves with a whip.
Loviatans celebrates all four seasonal festivals with the Rite of Pan and Purity: a circle dance that chanting, singing clergy members perform upon barbed wire, thorns or broken glass or crystal, where the whips of high levels clerics and the drumming of lay worshippers urge the participants to greater efforts...

Firstly, pictures of all gods in Faiths and Pantheons are stupids and have nothing to do with the actual words written next to the pictures in most of the cases... those in Faiths and Avatar are far better, I will try to scan the one of Loviatar to show it to you Shabanna.

Secondly, her rituals have nothing to do with bdsm (again I say that those who play it like this did not understand anything about Loviatar). Such rituals are commonly used in old tribes in africa or amazonia, in the real world, and most of those tribes worship pain for it shows the 'power' of someone, the way he resists it shows his strenght of body and mind. That is where you should look and not in 20th century occidental look on pain if you want to truly understand which pain they speak about.

Thirdly, I don't know what is it about that leather harness thing, but Loviatar's avatar dress in revealing silk to show as much possible of her alluring body. And it is said that "She truly enjoys inflicting pains and does not care if she receives it."
And true followers would try to be the most possible like their deity no?

Brar

PS: (now perhaps we should brought the Loviatar discussion to another thread if you want, but I will nto discuss it any further in this topic as it's not the place.)

I really feel like pointing a finger at the Lovite faith is making a scape goat out of them.

No, I am not asking to point out names. What I am pointing out is that there are not many Lovites. And that there are definately not many Lovites who play like your describe. And yes, people who have researched Loviatar, made a Lovite, and poured themselves into are very well going to be insulted with a statement that is basically like "All lovites moan and whip themselves and eachother, and that equates to lust/Sharess' domain." For people who are very adament about learning about a god, and Lovites who have read the things Brar has posted, and followed them within their own character, that is mildly insulting.

If you want a character of Sharess you should justify it with means that do not involve pointing fingers at other faiths, and peoples RP. Using names or no names. You should be focusing on why Sharess is not the things portrayed, rather than why Loviatar is the things that she too, is not portrayed as in research.

-Danica

Well, I think the point that Shabanna is trying to make isn't so much a pointing of a finger at Loviatar, but rather saying that if a faith like Loviatar's is allowed into the game(Whose dogma, in my opinion, can be interpretted as rather sadistic in a pleasureful/sexual way - that is how I as a person see it, and in all honesty your explainations have not convinced me otherwise; I'm sure that a successful Lovite ICly is not about these things, especially not on this mud, don't get me wrong! But just looking at Loviatar's dogma OOCly carries some wierd connotations to me...) then why not another faith whose dogma can be interpretted in such a way?

PS: I didn't mean to try and misquote you, Brar, but to be honest the extended quotes you gave still say the same thing to me. Sorry, though, no hard feelings!

PPS: Please keep in mind that I'm not criticizing anyone's Lovite RP. To my knowledge players on this mud have played their Lovites responsibly and not in a sexual or too much of a sadistic way. But in my small, humble opinion Loviatar's dogma can be seen in such a way. That's all.

I think Shabanna just wants to make a crazy cat lady!

Well myself, when i see Loviatar, i don't see the perverted sexual pleasure in the torture, i see pleasure in torture as one of other evil gods would take pleasure in spreading mischief, murder and such.

Of course anyone playing a "perverted" character could find some sexual pervertion in it (as i guess you could for a lot of "pleasure" of the evil side), but it's not the way it should be on the mud, and it should never be that way on the mud.

And the point is (and it's what Brar meant i think), that if Loviatar can be rped in a not perverted way, i don't see much way to play Sharess followers out of perversion. And that's why Sharess is not in game.

Eltsac

Jaenoic wrote:Well, I think the point that Shabanna is trying to make isn't so much a pointing of a finger at Loviatar, but rather saying that if a faith like Loviatar's is allowed into the game(Whose dogma, in my opinion, can be interpretted as rather sadistic in a pleasureful/sexual way - that is how I as a person see it, and in all honesty your explainations have not convinced me otherwise; I'm sure that a successful Lovite ICly is not about these things, especially not on this mud, don't get me wrong! But just looking at Loviatar's dogma OOCly carries some wierd connotations to me...) then why not another faith whose dogma can be interpretted in such a way?

Well, anything can be interpreted in any ways, it's just depends on your personnal experience and the influence you have from the society you were raised in.
That what connotations is about, and as I was obviously not raised among the same kind of society than you I have another point of view, and it does not means the same for me, hopefully because that would mean that regarding all the times I had to suffer to prove I was a man in regards of my family would mean I would be a perverted sadistic for enjoying those period of intense suffering.

Now, if one is able to play a follower of Sharess true to be like her deity (which is what any follower thrive to do in my eyes) without any hint of forbidden thing in the mud... then it's good for me, I don't see how it could be done in all honesty but if someone can convince me I would be happy

Brar

edited 8/20/06 to remove post

If I read this correctly, Shabanna's point is that followers of Loviatar and hose who have applied for same-sex relations are already allowed to roleplay that they take pleasure in pain and that they have intimate relations with other persons of the same sex. And thus, followers of Loviatar should be allowed because they wouldn't roleplay anything worse.

Now, ... I am not prude, nor American-brainwashed ("Oh my god! A piece of breast on TV! Let's go kill people instead!"), but I still disagree, for two reasons.

#1 - Something else.

Followers of Loviatar are not all about finding (sexual) pleasure in pain. Their roleplay can be based on thousands of other topics. Similarly, same-sex relations are not exclusively sexual. Their roleplay does not reduce to the same-sex specificity, but even if it did, it would still not be limited to having sex.

Sharess, on the other hand, basically does not have anything else to roleplay about. Their faith are exclusively based on that.

#2 - Limited maturity.

We have several younger players. Now, I could go on about protecting them from the eeeeevilness of sex, but that is not what I'm about here. It's about maturity in roleplay.

Assume that we remove all the restrictions on pkill. What will we see? Rampant pkills and serial killers.

Assume that we remove all the restrictions on stealing. What will we see? Thieves that steal with no roleplay and just frustrate everybody else.

Several players are rather young and/or immature (some are young and mature, others are old and immature). If we were to open up Sharess, we would get a band of depraved followers who would use the worst aspects of Sharess.


That's why I'm not in favour of opening up Sharess for now. If you want to concentrate on the 3rd edition toned-down words and base your faith on other aspects of pleasure, then Lliira is available.

Alright, this is only my opinion and I want to state now that I am not meaning to insult anyone in anyway.

First, I can see Shabanna’s point perfectly. To me, she makes since and I believe was only trying to use Lovi as an example, just as she used Sune, and Lliiran. Having more than one Sunite in my name, her church does practice true-love and not lust, but as Shabby said, we do, do the coddling but we know the limits.

Now, Shabby said,

If a player... applied for Sharess and was approved. the Imms would KNOW that person... and could easily keep a close eye on them and deftly use the PUNISH command if the person broke the rules. period. Not only that, but because it is not a coded Diety... there could be a strict controll over who was allowed or not allowed to be in the faith. .

I understand this and agree somewhat, but I believe and let me just say again, ((this is just –my- opinion!!)) but, I believe one reason why they would not want to do this, is because all of the IMM’s have been quite busy lately with roleplay and their own faiths, and don’t really need another weight to watch over. Yes, it could be strictly controlled, but IF it was allowed, and one person was to bypass the rules, it would make the IMM’s very, very, very, unhappy and I am sure would result in the end of anyone following her. Her dogma is rather close to Sune, and before she was completely subsumed by Shar, she was freed by Sune, during The Time of Troubles.

I understand that she was big in Calimport, but you could always just make a follower of Sune or Lliiran with all the flirtaous and feline aspects. Just an idea though.

EDIT:: Went through before I read Dalyvns reply.

Hey, I said that hedonism ussually have blabla meaning, Ussually, not all the time.

And to be honest, I, personnally, am not more for all that stuff about marrages, kids, relationships, love and all that stuff than of Sharess.
Plus, there is an history about everyone beginnning to have children in FK that the old ones knows (I speak about long before application began to exist) and that is not mine to discuss here. If you ask me, I say we just remove everything about relationship and comes back to adventure talking in the square instead of playing Dallas soap opera all the time, that's why I avoid the market square most of the time because all those relationships things makes me uneasy.

But then after reading the 3rd ed stuff again (I know the 2nd ed by heart so it's hard to mix it with the 3rd ed :p), I agree with you Shabanna, they made 3rd Sharess really sounds like Llira except that her worshippers are decadent (that written in the text, I don't invent it), it's sad in my opinion, but you're right.

Brar

Dalvyn wrote:Now, ... I am not prude, nor American-brainwashed ("Oh my god! A piece of breast on TV! Let's go kill people instead!")

OMG! Dalvyn said Breast! *gasp*



Quick call out the prude patrol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By the way, we are not going full 3rd edition.

At least not while I have anything to say about it.

3rd edition "crunch" (rules) is mostly all good, but 3rd edition "fluff" (non-rules, background) is quite jerky. Examples abound: a shadow weave coming out of nowhere... huh?, a whole shadow plane coming out of nowhere... huh?, the whole organization of the outer planes being broken down and turned into a list of small realms floating around? Yuck. And I would put Sharess's toning down to political correctness amongst those things.

As for watching over people, well... we don't have enough imms to do that and imms would rather do something more enjoyable than watching after people, I'm sure.

Now, for one special application to follow sharess, that could work... but it doubt it will be opened as a standard option.

And I kind of agree with Brar that the game is called Dungeons and Dragons, not The Sims - Kiss and Procreate. It's about the thrill of exploration and adventure and discoveries; it's about epic events, shining heroes, and fiendish evils, and certainly not about mawkish "roleplaying". And if some people find themselves spending 90% of their online time in taverns licking each other, perhaps they should wonder whether this is the right game.

edited 8/20/06 to remove post

Actually, I agree with Shebanna.

There are so many things that are played really close to the front in a lot of characters, regardless of faith. With some restrictions and some maturity in keeping it tasteful, rather than uh... lewd, there shouldn't be a reason why we can't have some of Sharess's followers.

Yes, the game is for all ages.

However, if you have cracked open a Forgotten Realms book, you will notice something about the inside cover of it.

There is no one on the credits page that is not an adult.

Adult themes are present, even when we want to get rid of them. They are present in fantasy games in general.

Does that mean, that I want to throw open the gates and have sexual situations and themes scattering across the game? No. Not only does it make it unpleasant in a legal aspect, but it is also uncomfortable for a LOT of peole out of character, regardless of age.

But it also means that we are not going to be able to play with lincoln logs either.


Where was my point? Oh yes..

On the one hand, that's a lot to ask of the IMM's in trying to introduce a faith that has to be watched all the time. regardless of how good intentioned the players would be, well......

There are those who would ruin it for everyone. Both in and out of the faith.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing NPC (what are they called? Mods?) of the faith roaming about in like Calimport and see how people would create the relgion without making it overboard, crazy sexual pleasure housing. It would be a nice start to see if the game could have it, without being... too risky.

And then, if it doesn't get abused MAYBE let one or two people try their hands at a PC character variety of it and see how it goes. If it doesnt' work, we slam the door on it as fast as you can say Peanut Butter.


But I have to agree with Shebanna on one hand..
It is amazing what IS allowed vs this one religion.
We let the "evil" characters exist when most evils of the world are not below PG-13 if they are truly evil. Most evil is at least a rating of like R if not worse. No matter how much we color it.

But we still make the effort to TRY those ones.
And I have heard good and bad things with all the religions having been examples of this. I have seen good Lovitars, bad ones. Good Sunites, bad Sunites... ect. ect. ect. In all cases, there are some who should be hit with a stick because on face value everyone assumes many very risky thinks with those religions. And if you are part of the religion or not.....

people have dirty minds.

If I may add my own two pennies, into this discussion?

Loviatar: she may or may not be into the inappropriate things. But the fact is, that on this MUD, with a PG13 rating, she ISN'T. Yes, Lovites may moan with pleasure when they get hit. Fine. But as long as they aren't describing anything lewd or above the PG13 rating, that's okay, surely? "Take pleasure as pain." To be honest, I've never played a Lovite, so I don't understand that moaning Lovites are bad, as Mele pointed out. To me, smiling when you take pain as a Lovite is nothing to do with sexual gratification, but a state of near-religious bliss. But that might be a bit risque, so I just go back to this point: PG13 rating. Everything's all good with a PG13 rating. Some things of Loviatar's dogma (whether inferred or not - I don't take a view on whether she does S&M) shouldn't be RPed on the MUD, but MOST of the things can.

Sune: romance? beauty? Most Sunites I know are dashing and are very loving, but even so they also have other facets to their faith, that enable them to RP at a PG-13 rating, and their characters are not overly limited by that.

Sharess: whatever spin you put on it, she is the Goddess of hedonistic pleasure. That makes it very difficult for someone to play a priest in any detail, without breaking that PG-13 ruling. Because even if you use fade-to-black a LOT, the principle of the matter is still that her faith stands for complete sensuality. Yes, I suppose you could say that she is just a coolfunky goddess of parties… but… you’d be denying your character a lot. But anyway, if that’s what you want to RP, then apply for it. They can only say no.

Involving Loviatar and Sune just makes Sharess obsolete anyway, because really, what’s she got left to do? A discussion about whether Sharess can be RPed really doesn't need any other faiths brought into it. The discussion should be solely about how much Sharess' dogma can be distanced from the completely hedonistic approach. So I think lets focus on that one.

I would also like to just say I do not think same-sex relationships have any place in this discussion. In my opinion, there is no problem whatsoever to those applications for same-sex relationships being “rushed through”. They are not any more or less appropriate than “normal” relationships, and as I have come to understand, these applications are rarely refused, they are more a way for the imms to monitor these things and to ensure that applicants understand the PG-13 policy. And even if some of the lesbian or gay couples choose to “flaunt” it, let them. As long as they aren’t breaking a PG-13 rating, they’re as entitled to that RP as much as any others. Now, I feel almost guilty about making this point, as such a semi-political discussion doesn’t really have any place here. I just wanted to point out the one obvious flaw I see with Shabanna’s original statement.

Thank you for listening, and apologies for the last paragraph, I just felt it had to be said.

~Ol

PS: Plus, Dalvyn's already said that individual applications may be considered, so... yeah.