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In the process of creating a tiefling today I discovered that tieflings currently cannot be of any alignment other than evil. I would be interested in opening up the race to neutral alignments and I'd like to see what other people think.

I haven't consulted any guidebooks (If someone has a relevant text, that would be excellent), but I think tiefling alignments include neutral and even good. I'm not sure about opening good alignments up. In all likelihood those would still need an application, since we don't really want an influx of dozens of good-hearted demon spawn.

In any case, give me your thoughts on tiefling alignment.

How hard would it be to change alignment by your actions? Is it coded? Perhaps every tiefling should start out evil, and in an evil city, but with appropriate roleplay, you can change your alignment to neutral and perhaps even good?

I know that certain actions in-game can shift you from lawful...perhaps aiding others can push you toward good? That would allow for the evil tendencies of tieflings, but also for the fact that anyone can overcome their innate tendencies, it's just harder for some than others. (A tiefling would experience far deeper pangs of evil temptation than, say, a gnome, just as gnomes experience severe pangs of mischief temptation, but don't ALWAYS act on them...well, some don't.)

I could live with neutral aligned Tieflings, but the demonic/devilish blood, in my opinion, makes it unrealistic to allow them to be good-aligned. In less-than-fantasy terms, Tieflings have evil in their genetics, just like Aasimars do with goodness. Saying one can act like the other is like saying someone can be tall when they're short.

As I recall from my reading on Tieflings in Races of Faerun and other sourcebooks, their demonic/infernal blood makes it very difficult for them to break from their evil tendencies, hence, a neutral tiefling that breaks from both it's evil and chaotic/lawful (depending on your plane of descent) tendencies would be very rare, and a good aligned tiefling would be next to unheard of.

My biggest issue is he fact that making it a freely available option, means the potential for a way off kilter distribution of a VERY rare occurance, the potential for like, twenty good and neutral aligned tieflings. Kind of the same reason we don't allow non-evil drow as a free option, because we don't want 20 Drizzt's roaming along.

My next biggest issue with opening up the race to neutral aligns, would be the potential for using it as a "hidden evil". This is no different, granted, from a human or other race doing the same thing, but there's the opportunity to bring your tiefling into places like Silverymoon and other restricted areas simply for the extra skills, etc, and yet still feeling free to act demonic (or devilish). Sure imms can align change them later, but so? The PC has already taken advantage of the places he'll no longer be able to get into.

I think that it would be best to leave it as an application only possibility, then if the imms judge that a player has the ability and maturity to RP a non-evil tiefling, it can happen with either an RP or a simple command at the imms choosing.

Following up on Kregor's post, I would like to mention that the exotic races, not just Tieflings, have restrictions which MAKE them rare. If all the special races can do everything that all the other races can do, then they cease to be special in any way. The restrictions are in place to facilitate a challenging RP with a unique race with which to interact within FK. They were not put in place for their restrictions to be refuted so that they can act like they're as common as humans.

EDIT: In regards to your quote Lysha, that would be perfectly fine, supposing we were simply running FK verbatim to what the FRCS dictates, but it is quite obvious that FK is its own variant of the Forgotten Realms setting. In tabletop, yes, you -will- see rare races like a Tiefling with a neutral or even good alignment, but -that- choice is ultimately up to the DM to allow or not.

Forgotten Realms Campaign Settings wrote:
Because they are decended from evil outsiders, those who know of their ancestry immediately consider most tieflings evil and untrustworthy. Not all tieflings are evil or untrustworthy, but enough are that the prejudice tends to cling.

Call me crazy, but this makes it seem like uh.. not many tieflings are not evil? I'm not sure really which side this was towards, as it was only a rather vague quote.

I can see a few rare tieflings accepted by application of people who are trusted by more than a kismet number, but known roleplay and such.

But - Rare races come with restrictions, guidelines, expense, so on. This is why they are rare and special races.

-Danica

Just to play, well, devil's advocate...I'd like to debate some of the points brought up here.

In less-than-fantasy terms, Tieflings have evil in their genetics, just like Aasimars do with goodness. Saying one can act like the other is like saying someone can be tall when they're short.

Well this is true, they could be said to have evil in their genetics. The problem is that it's a touchy thing to try to attribute disposition and morality to genetics even in our real mundane world, let alone when you start to mix in things like demonic heritage. A further problem with this theory is that the demonic heritage in a tiefling can be quite watered down. I have short ancestors, but I myself am 6'2", hardly short. It could be said accurately that I have shortness in my genes, but that I am also tall.

As I recall from my reading on Tieflings in Races of Faerun and other sourcebooks, their demonic/infernal blood makes it very difficult for them to break from their evil tendencies, hence, a neutral tiefling that breaks from both it's evil and chaotic/lawful (depending on your plane of descent) tendencies would be very rare, and a good aligned tiefling would be next to unheard of.

Do you think you could find a specific page or passage that discusses this? I would appreciate reading the quote myself and I don't have access to the sourcebooks. Anecdotal evidence is the bane of scientific exploration .

the potential for like, twenty good and neutral aligned tieflings

I will grant that there is the possibility that there will be more good and neutral aligned tieflings in the game. I'd like to note that I did suggest keeping a restriction on good aligned tieflings, since I think there could be a problem with loads of people making a good tiefling and skewing the population. At the same time, however, I don't believe it's a bad thing to have some neutral tieflings around. I'd like to point out that there is singificant canonical evidence pointing to the fact that drow, orcs and other similar races are almost universally evil. From what I understand there is no canonical evidence to say that about tieflings. Everything I've read on the admittedly non-canon sites on the internet seems to point to the fact that tieflings are almost universally distrusted due to their heritage, but they may or may not actually have any predisposition toward evil alignments. Some sites have even gone so far as to say that there are some tieflings more virtuous than a paladin. If someone can point to a specific canon publication to refute that, I will happily stop arguing the point right now.

potential for using it as a "hidden evil". This is no different, granted, from a human or other race doing the same thing

I'm not sure I can argue against your point any more effectively than you have already. This is more a problem with players using neutral alignments to act evil without the harmful side effects. The argument really does not pertain to tieflings in any way that it doesn't pertain to every other race in the game that has neutral alignments available. I would say that there is already significant protection in place to prevent the inexperienced from making a tiefling, as there is currently a 900 kismet deduction upon creating one.

exotic races, not just Tieflings, have restrictions which MAKE them rare. If all the special races can do everything that all the other races can do, then they cease to be special in any way

It's always been my impression that rare races have a kismet cost only because we want to keep the number of those types of characters at a low level relative to the rest of the more mundane pouplation. I think that the way in which tieflings are 'special' is that they have demonic blood running in their veins, not that they are necessarily evil. There are plenty of other races that can be evil. The fact that they have demonic blood is why we pay 900 kismet, not so we can play evil characters.

As a solution to the general feeling that neutral and good aligned tieflings should be vastly more rare than tieflings in general (although I am not in agreement with this feeling), why don't we add an additional kismet cost for neutral and good aligned tieflings (or for neutral and evil aligned aasimar, for that matter). Perhaps we could add 100 kismet for a neutral tiefling or aasimar, and 300 kismet for a good aligned tiefling or evil aligned aasimar. This would bring the totals to 1000 kismet and 1200 kismet, making these two options the most expensive ones in the game, as far as I know.

In my experience, all tieflings are evil, it is just that some tieflings are more evil than others. It varies really.

I think that the way in which tieflings are 'special' is that they have demonic blood running in their veins, not that they are necessarily evil.

I didn't say that their evilness is what makes them special. As you yourself quoted, I said that the restrictions are what makes them rare, which does not mean the fact that they are evil. Evil humans can get into Waterdeep in FK with no problem. Why can't/shouldn't Tieflings? Perhaps because they're demonic/devilish? Why can't/shouldn't half-drow? My point being that the race itself is a restriction.

My last note on this entire subject will be this: Forgotten Realms, not just FK, is built upon the foundation of racism and stereotype. You can admit it or not, but it is a fact. Thousands of years of war between the Elves and Orcs. Thousands of years of war and hatred between the Elves and the Drow. It's there. It's what the world is comprised of. Even the Humans and Elves fought and didn't like each other. There are certain aspects about a fantasy world that cannot be altered without altering the basis upon which the world was created. This goes for FK as well.

Short version: FK Tieflings are evil and are shunned in many places. If that is problem for you as a player, play a different race.

Just my final thoughts.

Talos wrote:My last note on this entire subject will be this: Forgotten Realms, not just FK, is built upon the foundation of racism and stereotype. You can admit it or not, but it is a fact. Thousands of years of war between the Elves and Orcs. Thousands of years of war and hatred between the Elves and the Drow. It's there. It's what the world is comprised of. Even the Humans and Elves fought and didn't like each other. There are certain aspects about a fantasy world that cannot be altered without altering the basis upon which the world was created. This goes for FK as well.

I believe this is a perfect point needs to be put on. Playing the game in modern thoughts and beliefs is not the good approach. Whatever you think about natives in RL, elven hatred toward drow and orc races is something real in FR. Sembians harrassing elves, trying to ruin their business in Sembia, putting on marks to their homes, this is also real in FR. Or tieflings being frowned upon, no matter what their alignment is. These are the common traits of FR setting.

I agree completely that there should be lots of racism and prejudice in the game world. I have never argued that there shouldn't be.

You wrote, "exotic races, not just Tieflings, have restrictions which MAKE them rare. If all the special races can do everything that all the other races can do, then they cease to be special in any way." Since the only restriction I was talking about removing was the alignment restriction, I assumed you were referring to that.

Personally, I view the (relative) ease with which humans can accept other races to be one of their advantages...and Raona says so often IC. This is not to say that there isn't racism and stereotype in the FK realm, and lots of it...but the point is that individuals can have experiences that move them beyond it. (In Raona's case, she's actually penned a few comments on the matter, one partly explaining her IC perspective on it: they are posted on the main note board and on the Halls of Justice note board.) ...and even for Elves, Orcs, and other races with strong racial hatreds, these should be amenable to very slow and grudging shifting over time in the face of experience.

As to Balek's original question and Talos' short version reply, "FK Tieflings are evil and are shunned in many places," I believe that it makes sense that in FK tieflings are born evil, and it makes sense to me that even if they are brought up by the most beneficient of foster parents, they will have evil tendencies, and should be RP'd as such. This, to me, does not preclude that some will overcome those tendencies, and if that is done right, it can be a superb RP. But I'm not an Imm, Talos is...and I don't know if Talos meant to exclude this possibility by his reply.

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy...

...but that doesn't mean we should be playing them. I very, VERY strongly support the high Kismet cost on playing even a "normal" teifling or genasi or other special race-- because much as this game world may be peopled by NPCs, the PCs are imminently more noticeable, and therefore if most people aren't playing "normal" races, classes, etc., the world starts to look very skewed. I could see-- MAYBE-- something like a good teifling being awarded to someone (not as the result of a request, but more like God characters are awarded) if a situation were to arise where a good tiefling either became well-known or would likely become well-known in some plotline. Otherwise, I firmly believe such things should remain relegated to the realms of hypothesis and NPChood.

Tieflings? Evil? Hmm?

I know Moloch may not be everyone's favorite, but he has evolved with the restrictions on the race. Really you just have to learn what is fun for everyone else, not just yourself. When your rp starts infringing on the good time of others, then it is time to back off a little bit. I may not do everything by the book, but I enjoy every minute of the punishment >.< (Lovite?)

I think we're bleeding a little bit into a topic that's been discussed before, not just with tieflings, but evil in general.

Just because you're evil, doesn't mean you have to be unlikeable. You can be gloriously evil, in your desire to climb to the top by whatever means necessary; you can be greedy, and scheming, and devious in the way you would play your friends against your enemies; but you can also be very congenial, even downright friendly, and mean it!

Do you think Al Capone didn't care for his family? Was he looked upon by the beautiful people of society as this nasty, undesirable wicked villan that no one would want to be around? No, he rubbed the elbows, made the social circles, nuzzled with the best (okay.. maybe *he* didn't nuzzle, but... ) And yet, he would not hesitate to give a thumbs down to someone who would threaten his livelihood, security, or power.

Granted, Capone didn't have um.. horns, or.. a tail.. but that just adds to the wonderful evilness of it all. The success of gaining someone's trust is that much more satisfying once broken through a concrete wall of prejudice and bias. I would, actually, be offended if I were just readily accepted by most mortals of decent heart, and I would be sadly disappointed if I were just granted open welcome to every city in the realms. It should be a challenge.

You can be *nice*, and still be evil. You can be good, and be a total arse. Your personality level does not = your alignment.

OO ooOO Not to mention. There was a certain powerful archmage with clones who loved a wizard who died in the Shandril Saga, and he went all sorts of sad and nuts over her death. Even to the degree to act like a foolish warrior and charge in without thought! She is right there is evil..then eviler..and then pure evil who will just sacrifice loved ones along with other peons to there deaths. Some merchants who live in Waterdeep can be considered evil due to there business practices I dare say! I have run into a few evils who up to a part of our rp was fun and cool to rp with because she was sweet..until she wanted something no one wanted to give her! Well..I am just rambling now!