[SKILL] More involved lockpicking

[Glim]

*click*

Sound familiar? Most people will see that is what happens when you try to pick a lock. I have had an idea rolling through my head for a while and I was thinking it would be more fun for thieves, and a bit more realistic, if lockpicking was a bit more involved. What started this idea was actually the lockpicking system on another game (some will recognise it), and I really liked it. So I tried to figure how it could be adapted to FK and might make the game better for thieves.

There would be three new commands for this, they would be:

Probe- This would bring up the interface below. Locks can be anywhere from two to five pins, two being the easiest, and five being the hardest.

Pick #. This would try and make which number pin you chose to rise. There would be a skill check here, and if you succeeded, the pin would rise. If you failed, depending on your skill level and if you have already picked some tumblers, anywhere from 3 (low skill level) to 0 (high skill level) pins would fall back into place as well as the one you wanted to pick.

Unlock - Once all pins are raised, this would unlock the lock.

An example of two locks would be:

An unpicked 2 pin lock (easiest).

Code: Select all

|*[]*[]*|
|*[]*[]*|
()______|

An unpicked 5 pin lock (hardest).

Code: Select all

|*[]*[]*[]*[]*[]*|
|*[]*[]*[]*[]*[]*|      
()_______________|

So an example would be, a thief with a fairly high skill level comes upon a locked door, so they would type:

probe

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()_______________|

pick 1

(Thief tries to pick 1st pin, and succeeds.)

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|*[]*[]*[]*[]*[]*|
|*  *[]*[]*[]*[]*|      
()_______________|

pick 2

(Thief tries to pick 2nd pin, succeeds.)

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|*[]*[]*[]*[]*[]*|
|*  *  *[]*[]*[]*|      
()_______________|

pick 3

(Thief tries to pick 3rd pin and fails, 3rd pin doesnt rise and the 1st falls back.)

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|*[]*[]*[]*[]*[]*|
|*[]*  *[]*[]*[]*|      
()_______________|

They would do this until all the tumblers were picked and made to rise, which would look like this:

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|*[]*[]*[]*[]*[]*|
|*  *  *  *  *  *|      
()_______________|

Then they would merely type:

unlock

*click*

The number of tumblers, as well as the DC of the skill check they would have seperately would determine the difficulty of the lock. Of course, any part of this could be tweaked/removed/changed as needed (as ive probably left something out).

Of course, if the ascii version of the interface was too much, it could even be simplified to this.

(Five tumbler lock)

Code: Select all

ooxxx

x = unpicked tumbler
o = picked tumbler

Thats a simplified version.

If you got attacked, or moved away from the lock, it would of course reset itself.

Thats my idea in a nutshell (a big one). As I said, I merely thought it would be a nice little addition that would make lockpicking more involved.
Feedback is, of course, always welcome.

Thanks,

[Aliatris]

I no doubt that it would make the life of a thief more interesting but I think that before this, it should be increasead the need of using this thieving skills, what would make the life of thief REALLY more interesting.

[Alaudrien]

I love the idea though it sounds fun and in depth! perhaps search can be interfaced with it..and when you probe you search for also hidden needle traps -chuckle- Of course Having more locks would be nice before any time is put into doing this?

[Kirkus]

I think this is a very well thought out idea, I love it.

[Glim]

Of course Having more locks would be nice before any time is put into doing this?

I no doubt that it would make the life of a thief more interesting but I think that before this, it should be increasead the need of using this thieving skills, what would make the life of thief REALLY more interesting.

Id like to ask opinions on these, anyone else is welcome to post theirs.

1. Is it the general opinion that there arent enough locks in the game?

2. What do you mean by increase the need of using thieving skills? Do people feel like thieves arent really very useful?

Feedback is always welcome,
Thanks,

[Grom]

The number of locks that block peoples paths are few in number and the onesm ost run into either a mage just uses the knock spell or a warrior bashes it down. Now having magical resistant locks and strong doors would increase the need of a thief in the party. While also ..more traps and such would be nice. As long as the party and most just run through the traps and sit down and heal it up without much worry about anything else?

[Jaenoic]

I don't play thief characters, but I can still give my opinion from an "outside-looking-in" sort of view.

1. Whenever I come across a locked door it generally marks somewhere important that I'm not supposed to go. Or, if it's just sort of blocking my path there is almost always a key within access. If I cant get the door open I just move on because I never really put much importance on what lies behind locked doors.(Then again, I'm no thief. ) I would say there's a lack of locked doors/locked whatevers in the game because ICly people would tend to lock their doors more. That's just an objective view, as to whether or not their should be more locks in game I can't say; to be honest I don't have much of an opinion on that.

2. As a player of non-thieves, thieves aren't not useful to me. They just aren't astoundingly useful like they are in other 3rd ed games I've played.*reminisces about sending a high-AC thief into a group of baddies and dropping a well-placed fireball* They're a wonderful class to RP with, don't get me wrong and I love having them along for flavor. But I rarely feel that I ever need to bring a thief for their skills.

Personally I think your idea is well thought out and interesting, Glim. I don't play any thieves(yet... ) but I wouldn't object to it being implimented.

[Shabanna]

while I think it is a cool idea... I fear it will make rogues even less desirable in a party. Sorry but people already gripe that rogues are a liability "weak fighters" and a time consuming "waste." Why? Because when... instead of waiting and RPing while the rogue picks all x number of tumblers... the fighters will simply impatiently push them aside and bash the door or a mage will cast knock. It is an interesting idea. But I think in practice it would make people less likely to take a rogue


edited to add this:

In response to Jaenoic's post. I am sad to see things like " there is no use" for rogues in the game. I know it is not meant in a meanspirited way. But, the truth is this is a common attitude... sadly. However, there are A LOT of places that a rogue can come in handy. I can not go into them here because of IC information and all.. but I will be frank, if you think rogues are only for color.. then IMHO...you are missing out on some things in the game. People tend to think of Rogues as useless... it is clear, I think instead of putting time into a new lock system maybe we need to just see a few more locks in general. I would be thrilled to see a lock on every chest and nook and cranny in the game When I played table top... you could not manage without a rogue. your wizzie was needed for better stuff than knock and a trap was not something you just took and continued through with a wince or a fumble its the attitude.. that rogues are not really useful that leads to imbalanced parties and a lot of miffed rogues lol LOCK stuff up!!! lock chests and closets and doors Oh MY!!! and make them so they can not be bashed!!!!! Muhahahah make that *Click* mean something to the party thats what im sayin! Love your rogue... they may save your life someday or maybe find that secret, locked, trapped chest full of coinz!!!)

[Grom]

I personally love thieves. I love the tumbler idea and others do get pushy like shabanna says. Thieves in 3rd ed now are great to be they are versatile and not so weak in battle. While in game they are..pretty much panzies. Unless they have evasion and such to help with those pesky things. But thieves are fun to rp and play..I wish they weren't so weak now adays but hey! I still play one because I love em. They aren't a liability..if you think that then blah on you! They are ways to finesse your way into places to sweet talk people or to if you have to ..send ahead to learn info and perhaps come running otu with a horde of angry kobolds and orcs cause you insulted there king and have half there treasure in your pouches!

[Amalia]

I have to admit, I fall on the side of thinking this idea will make lockpicking too long a process. I say this primarily because I think it could be quite boring for the rest of the party to wait for the thief to unlock the door if they're all hyped up for the battle and aren't in a talkative mood, or would conversely exclude the thief from such conversations as might occur while he was picking the lock.

I haven't ever seen anyone say they don't want a rogue along, but I can see how many people might hold that conviction (especially since, as far as I'm aware, you can't backstab once battle begins?). I've only ever heard one person say a rogue would actually be good to have along, for an area which had a fair few deadly traps. Fighters with doorbash seem to like using the ability, so thieves can become superfluous even in dungeons with locked doors. I imagine a longer lockpick process would only serve to strengthen this notion.

[Grom]

Rogues can circle stab if they have the skill effectively backstabbing in battle. I think if sneak attack goes in..it would make us alot more useful seeing as how sneak attack can take effect when other people are drawing the targets attention away.

[Glim]

Hmm, boring?

I didnt really think about that. I know I might get arguments against the reality vs. fun pushers, but has anyone ever tried to pick a lock? Most modern locksmiths have ways of picking locks faster, but if they just used a pick and a torque wrench (like thieves in this era I think would), it usually takes a good bit of time.

I was more thinking of the fun when it comes to the thief, though. A party might consider it a bit boring, but I always thought the whole *click* was a little anti-climactic on the thief's part.

As for how else to make them useful, well, people dont really care about traps (sure some could kill you, but most are just annoying). Backstab has never been a very big party asset. Nor has scouting, stealing, sneaking etc. How could these be made more useful?

Feedback is always welcome,
Thanks,

[Amalia]

One option might be headstrong mobs that one has to get around in order to finish a quest, who can't just be killed or the quest is failed-- stealing would be of use there-- or Influence, which if I recall right is like charm except that the "victim" is merely convinced and not forced. Granted, one could also charm the mob, but they might be a little peevish about having their mental capacities strongarmed.

When it comes to traps, maybe traps of really nasty, inconvenient things would be beneficial-- hold person, for example. I'm sure detrap would be in a good bit more demand if one risked being frozen for a few minutes in a dangerous place or perhaps teleported to somewhere either disgruntling (back to "starting") or downright deadly. Suffice to say, I'm sure we can come up with scarier traps if we try. I confess I'm not sure we should put them in too terribly many places, as it can be very trying to need a thief *everywhere* one goes, but having such things on just some quests or locations could at least give thieves a good chance to develop party ties.

I do note that I've been told by a few people that Undermountain is "way cooler" with a thief in the party. I suspect this has to do with hidden passages and the like, and the thief's option to search every room by default. I'd be quite keen on adding that feature to more places.

[Maybel]

First... I would like to thank Shabanna for using rogue... and not thief...

Second... more chests in the game.... a few mobs could have "a locked chest" or "a simple locked box" that would have the coin in it...

You make picking locks that complicated... you'll get people going to wiz to knock it... If it is a door... you'll find the fighter doorbashing it instead.

I would love to see more put into the rogue class... The tumbler code for picking, although a good idea, is a bit much for the current state of FK

[Raona]

Perhaps there could be a distinct advantage to the element of surprise?

Pick the lock, and when you enter the next room, it's just the party and the two guards that were there. Bash the door, and an extra four guards come rushing in? Perhaps the same could apply when certain high-power spells were used - loud ones, like fireball. Then the brute force approach would not be out of the question...but it might be harder! Discression might then become the greater part of valor. A small, patient group with a rogue could then do what would require a large group without both a rogue and patience a long time.

I still love Glim's idea, even if there are mroe pressing code issues.

[Zuldere]

Instead of locked doors since knock and bash works on them what about chest since nether skill or spell that I seem works on them. Make it so the chest is bolted to the floor hence the need to bring a thief to it. Much wealth can be found in a chest or why would one put anything in them.

[Aliatris]

Basically having more and more deadly traps and locked chests being some of them trapped, the utility of this class will improve seriously. After all what makes a rogue useful for a party is the sneak attack and all the skills that can offer, by increasing the necessity of those skills, this class would be more useful.

[Glim]

Just bumping this since it has been a while and changes have happened.

Is it possible that thieves have been made more useful (with the advent of deadlier traps and the new sneak attack), that this might be a more viable addition?

[Selveem]

Basically having more and more deadly traps and locked chests being some of them trapped, the utility of this class will improve seriously. After all what makes a rogue useful for a party is the sneak attack and all the skills that can offer, by increasing the necessity of those skills, this class would be more useful.

While I appreciate how you feel about this, I'll have to disagree. I say that because of the way grouping/following works. I don't think there needs to be more deadly traps. If a rogue is in the party, they have quite a bit on their plate already in places like UM or others with very deadly traps. UM, to be quite honest, is already long enough with others there. I have spent upwards 5 hours at one sitting in UM helping people out.

The truth of the matter is you don't want a rogue leading your party like you would in D&D because if they get ambushed, they are fragile and the chance of them dying is pretty high. Further, if the rogue is not leading, there is a chance that you're gonna get pwned because the leader isn't too concerned about himself dying (take the case of my wizard who had finally gotten enough exp to level but was suckered into helping a group out in a dangerous area - we had a lot of people scouting for traps, but everyone appeared to miss one - they walked in without trying more attempts and my wizard lost his head because he was forced to follow).

Just saying that auto-kill traps already are dangerous enough. Don't need to see a whole slew of them just to make a point to bring a rogue. Especially when there's a fairly high chance the rogue could miss the trap the first time anyhow.

[Liandria]

UM has its own challenges, and from what I've read it really is one of the only dungeons folks want a thief along with them in. Adding more locks and real traps won't necessarily plop them all into undermountain. In my opinion Undermountain is the last place they'd need to enhance for thieves, as it already promotes the class. There are a number of mid and high level dungeons throughout the game, and probably more to be built that could use them though. Put important items like Keys to magical doors in a locked chest. Or the end mission reward in a big chest with a nice trap on it.

I remember going through one mid level dungeon in the game with a level 11 fighter tagging after a high level fighter and cleric. There were multiple traps which we just rushed through, I think all but two struck me, and only one of them even had the potential of killing. Traps are a bit diluted in FK in my opinion. The point of a trap is to disuade, the current traps that I've run into do not do this. Instead of a viper, they are a mosquitto, annoying, but not really worth the trouble of getting rid of them.

Traps wouldn't necessarily have to be deadly either, like someone above says hold person would be enough that it would make the thief worth his while there. Likewise Entangle, Blind, Sleep, Poison, Silence (especially silence since the answer to the after effect of a trap is usually Healed or dispelled off) would offer sizeable delays for the party that just rushes through them, Clerics can't carry a prayer for "everything". A good designer puts a weak one, like faerie fire, or cause light wounds in the beginning as the "warning shot" so they know to expect more deeper, and after that they stop pulling punches.

Oddly there's another place where people die to traps somewhat often, but because of the thief tendancies in alignment, they can't get there.