Spell component change

[Kelemvor]

Those spells which previously used a dart as one of the components will now require an arrowhead in its place.

Any feedback gratefully received, particularly on ease of obtaining the component

[Zilvryn]

Urgh, why's this been implemented?

It's hard enough finding/being able to afford components as it is without making it any harder

What was wrong with using darts?

[Kelemvor]

I guess you missed the post here...

http://www.gallwey.com/fk/board/viewtop ... ght=#44630

My feeling on the matter is that arrowheads are more ICly appropriate, have less complications associated with their item type and are actually easier to find than the original component.

Though of course I will take into account any concerns raised by players, so if you have any empirical evidence feel free to note it here.

[Zilvryn]

Nah, I just saw the post after I posted this...

I don't really have any real problems, it just seems like change for change's sake though as the problems that did occur with darts were easily work-aroundable (is that even a word?)

Just let me whinge, i've just got up and think i've remembered the mob that generates arrowheads

[Rhianon]

Then fix it so that anyone who has a dart the dart is automatically changed to an arrowhead. It seems the changes are constantly making things difficult for the characters. If your going to change components on a whim, then replace the old ones that people paid for with the new ones.

[Zilvryn]

Arrowheads have been distributed about amongst the smiths of the kingdoms, it's not really been a problem for me to find any to be honest...

Also, there is 2 mobs I know of that will generate arrowheads if given a piece of metal.

On reflection this hasn't been as much of a problem as I thought it might.

[Kelemvor]

It seems the changes are constantly making things difficult for the characters. If your going to change components on a whim, then replace the old ones that people paid for with the new ones.

I am at a loss to see how changing something to

- remove the need for a workaround in order to put a component into a pouch;
- increase the number of the needed component that people may carry;
- make an item easier to obtain;
- replace a component with a cheaper one ;
- increase interaction between players; and
- increase the uses that players can make of the weaponsmithing trade

can be viewed as 'making things difficult'

Uninformed posts such as these give completely the wrong impression and it is disappointing to see

[Rhianon]

You don't think that having to replace something that you already have and use because someone wants you to jump through hoops to get a new component doesn't make things more difficult? And if making people interact is a problem then perhaps something else is the problem and not the components

[Japcil]

I don't know how all of your "voices" sound in your posts but they sound harsh when I read some of the posts. I don't think we need to be bashing Kelemvor's attempt to fix this. You see by storing and item_type_weapon in a spell pouch your exploiting a bug, which is against the rules.

I think that Kelemvor's change while a little uninformed is helpful. No need to bash that he created a way for character to interact more. If you have a problem roleplaying with other characters, then why play on a Roleplay-enforced MUD?

It's not about jumping through hoops, its about making the game run flawlessly and darts as a component was a flaw because of their item type.

[Oghma]

Some comments and I use the term liberally. Any change to the game in the last two years counting has in my opinion been done to either foster role play between characters and/or help players on all levels to enjoy the game better. There has not been any manner of repression or penalization of players through code, rather things have been balanced by coders and builders or fixed because of bugs. People that have taken the time to hear out gamers or taken it upon themselves to fix minor and major things that will be seen in the long run as good choices as opposed to bad that is what I have observed.

I think this is an example of a positive change. I think In my personal opinion that the only people that truly have difficulties are those that are used to the older systems of play that were unbalancing or unaligned with the current perception of the game.

You do not have to change, but by interacting and looking towards the future or searching for a new ic means of gaining something you stand to have fun, it might take some time, but it is worth it if you wanted something terribly enough. Kelemvor and Zilvryn have both reflected on ways to gain said components with good enthusiasm. Explanations of why the changes have been implemented have been posted. So once again you can relax and make the best of the situation.

You don't think that having to replace something that you already have and use because someone wants you to jump through hoops to get a new component doesn't make things more difficult?

I don't see it as jumping through hoops to find someone or a vendor that sells the means to create the component and then taking them to a place where a mobile will craft them, i see it as something you would do in the world of Faerun itself. I do not know how easy it was before to gain a great deal of something but if it is worth the effort then people will commit to it.

And if making people interact is a problem then perhaps something else is the problem and not the components

I do not consider it being forced to interact, this is an rp mud, full of players imbued with skills and trades. You are expected to interact with others to gain access to certain skills or items or knowledge. How you interact depends on your rp, loners and hermits lose out naturally but it is in their rp to do so.

Finally, and I say this with finality. As Newbie Council transformed into Player Council welcoming a wide variety of council members I remind that sometimes you need to present a united front and try to understand that the changes being implemented are not being imposed. They have been discussed, and evaluated by teams and councils and even then this forum posting has been created to allow feedback and explanations. Holding a grudge or starting a flame war should not be taken up here, rather state your concerns and explain your case. Don't make accusations without explanations and remember we are all here to play and we all do, any changes we make we make for the good of the whole playerbase.

EDIT: Japcil summed up what I wanted to say flawlessly and in less words than my own post.

[Dalvyn]

There have been several moves recently to try and get a system where

a) most/all components can be obtained through various ways, the "easiest" one being to buy them from a shop, the "cheapest" one being to actually "craft" (in some way) the component;

b) even very low-level characters can make themselves useful by crafting those components, without having to complete complex quests and train up skills for hours.

I see this component change as part of the whole change, which, I think, is positive.

Like every change, yes, there will be unfortunate temporary consequences. The fact that those who have stocked up on darts will have to buy arrowheads to replace them is one of those consequences.

Also, shops that were selling darts will need to be changed to arrowheads (that will take some time because a bug needs to be fixed first before that can be changed).

The "arrowhead" object will also need to be modified so that it can be used for several casting (while I guess that, currently, I'd guess it only works for one casting).

I would agree that the change was perhaps a bit rushed and that it might have been better to fix all the things mentioned above at the same time (partly my fault, since I took a break and I wasn't around to point out that just changing the components was not enough), but I don't think that this change, which was both (a) justified/explained and (b) discussed publicly in Game Suggestions first, be trashed down by negative comments.

I know by experience that those who produce negative comments have an incredible power of persuasion to convince those who would try to make things better that they should just take a break and not care anymore. I have seen carefully crafted proposals for change (which most certainly had some positive points) shot down by irrelevant or uninformed negative comments then abandonned.

So, while we welcome all comments, both positive and negative, on those boards, perhaps it's wise to think twice before posting negative comments and wonder whether they are expressed just because of the temporary negative consequence on your character, or if they are valid comments against the new system.

In this case, I have not yet seen any "good" negative comment against this change. Once things have been fixed all over, you will be able to get arrowheads everywhere where you used to be able to get darts; and you will even be able to get arrowheads from PC crafters and mobs that transform smelted metals into arrowheads. All in all, I think it makes life EASIER rather than HARDER on spell casters.

[Zilvryn]

I've not had a problem obtaining arrowheads. Since my initial moan (which was retracted) i've had no dramas at all.

Incidentally arrowheads last for multiple castings, so there's nothing that needs to be done there..

[Lerytha]

Whilst I haven't logged on to see how easy arrowheads are to find... from a code-based point of view... how amazing is it to be able to have things that potentially fit into your spellpouch without filling it up with five darts? So, I assume I'll be happy.

Although I disagree with Rhianon about the change being bad, I do just want to say that I don't think she meant what she said in a "flamey" way - or that she was saying roleplay is not what she wants. One point she made was overlooked (or misunderstood), and that was the comment that if we are changing components to encourage roleplay, maybe the problem should be looked at in a different way: not changing things to encourage roleplay, but looking at the wider picture.

I may have misunderstood myself, so if I've put across an interpretation of Rhianon's post that wasn't right, I apologise. Either way, though I believe that changing the way items are obtained so it can be obtained through roleplay is a GOOD IDEA... the idea that we should be looking at the wider picture is also a good idea.

And of course, I'd just like to say that from my experience, the MUD staff IS trying hard to look at the wider picture to encourage roleplay, and tweaking components to make roleplaying-with-others-to-get-components possible is just one small part of the myriad advancements that are being made here.

I think every comment, whether truly negative, perceived as negative, truly positive, falsely positive or whatever comments there are, has real value in a discussion.

~Ol

[Rhianon]

Thank you Lerytha.

[Elenthis]

As of the date and time of this post I have tested the "Flame arrow" spell with the arrowheads made by a certain NPC dwarf within Waterdeep; steel, copper, titanium, lead, and tin arrowheads made by PCs; and Tin, copper, lead, steel, and titanium darts made by PC's all with the result of them not working on "Flame arrow". My spellbook still reads "Dart" as one of the components required. I cannot say 100% sure that arrowheads never work as I have not tested gold, mithril, or silver. Is this change still active? (darts being replacable by arrowheads)? I may be looking in the wrong places, but I can say that in addition to the personal lack of ability to find components for this spell, there are a few other components which seem to be impossible, or nearly so to find. I cant speak for others, but I can say that after about a week of "farming" for spell components, my pouch is still woefully close to "e".
Anyone selling a gas-station?

[Tempus]

It appears the spells in question have reverted to using the dart (not smithed by a PC - i287) as a component. Hopefully someone who can fix this will be along shortly.

[Dalvyn]

Actually, there is now a way for everybody to craft darts, even without the weapon smithing skill. And the darts so-created work for the spells.

[Elenthis]

As of the following time player-crafted darts still do not work.

It is 6 o'clock am, Fifthday, 4th day in the Month of the Melting.
The mud started up at: Sat Jun 21 00:48:30 2008
The system time (GMT): Wed Jun 25 06:21:56 2008

As far as the above mentioned way to craft darts, I can only assume it involves a mob. I've not found it yet myself, but I'll be on the lookout. I do want to ask though...for those of us who cant pump the hours on all year around, can we get an IC announcement of "so-and-so has started crafting darts for wizards and dart-players alike!" or something of the sort? I havent cast a flame arrow in months, and IC-ly I've yet to find anyone who knows where I can find a non-player crafted dart. Thanks either way, but since components are generally fluff, this has been...well, honestly it hasnt been difficult, but it has been discouraging.

~Elenthis.

[Dalvyn]

I thought the news would spread out quite quickly. I know for sure that at least 2 very regular players know of it.

And no, it's not a mob who is going to craft them for you. As I wrote above: there is now a way for everybody to craft darts. Everybody can now make them (with the right tools).

[Larethiel]

The source is indeed known and used but only by a few It also came up in an IC conversation with some others not too far ago, so basically, if you ask around ICly, someone will know and tell you where or with whom to speak.