[COMMAND]Retreat

[Dranso]

It would work like flee, but only for the group leader. If the leader finds that the group he is leading is about to be pummeled he can use the retreat command and have the whole group flee with him. Maybe there could aslo be directions added to this. Like retreating east or west.

[Sairaven]

I think a command of this nature would have to be carefully balanced, perhaps with +config options for the party members.

I would also suspect that it would provoke an attack of opportunity against the party leader, given that since they ordered the retreat they're going to be "covering" said retreat for the others.

[Japcil]

I really like this command. I agree with Sairaven that a config option is a must. I would like to see a fail chance per team member based on a concentration check. This way a group member might fail to notice the signal and will not retreat.

[Hviti]

By concentration do you mean a set of skills (concentration/listen/etc.) or stats (wis/int/cha) or something else?

[Harroghty]

While we're at it -because I think this invites the question- what about formations? I mean more than just what your spot in the order of battle is. I mean, can you fight on line? Maybe in a wedge? This would also have some bearing on the chances of an effective retreat.

The group leader could determine the formation: so he puts the group in a wedge. Then, when they retreat, they're all in one group and easier to move.

[Japcil]

By concentration, i mean the skill concentration.

With group formations, pcs can all ready form different ways by having different pcs in form front/mid/back.

[Raona]

I think this is an excellent idea as well - but can see two distinct implementations of it:

1) Retreat means all group members attempt to flee at once, in the same direction; they are all subject to an attack of opportunity. If a member fails a concentration check, they would not attempt to flee with the others, but would then automatically (begin) attempting to do so the next round. Those failing the flee attempt would also remain in combat but would automatically attempt to flee in the same direction each round, until they died to managed to escape.

2) Retreat means that the group attempts an orderly, covered retreat of some sort. Perhaps those in the back rank flee first, then those in the middle rank, then the front, as a group, with the premise being that those in the front cover the others as they retreat so that they do not suffer attacks of opportunity. Those in the front rank would be subject to an attack of opportunity, but would all succeed or fail in the flee attempt, as a group, such that no one group member would be left behind. Group leader charisma would likely be of more import in this version.

[Japcil]

My perception:

Only players in formation front receive AoO(attack of opportunity). If you fail to retreat with the group you do not automatically flee. I say no to this because I just dont think it should be automatic. Retreat should be an acceptable command only if formation front is taken, not only group leader(reason being what if they go link dead). You also get a bonus to your concentration check for this command if fighting defensively. (We still have that right?)

[Hviti]

Is concentration used for checks for things other than spells? I like the idea (especially Raona's #2 implementation), but I'm not sure if that particular skill is applicable to this case.

[Japcil]

It is, off the top of my head I couldnt say though. What skill would you suggest? Listen perhaps?

[Harroghty]

What about just a check against each individual's DEX?

Like Hviti points out, concentration may not be the best option. This skill isn't practical for many warriors (though it is available to them) and it'd be odd if the fighters, who would -in most cases- realistically be the best trained and experienced with a combat manuever, were left behind.

Listen could be an option but that's twisting its usual purpose. I recommend DEX because if you are all together it may be less an issue of whether or not each member actually hears the command and more of an issue of whether or not they're able to execute it.

For that matter, you might apply whichever abilities are parts of the equation for the individual FLEE command.

[Saiden]

Saidens concentration is just as high today as when he trained it back in the day. Not once has he ever "concentrated" on something successfully, and I believe this is because it only works when casting a spell.

I've thrown out suggestions for making concentration work on some thief skills, (pick lock, steal, hide, etc, etc) and this would build up the concentration skill for saves and throws for things such as the retreat command being proposed here.

Other than that, yeah everything being talked about on retreat sounds good and idealistic.

[Hviti]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/concentration.htm

Concentration (Con) Check
You must make a Concentration check whenever you might potentially be distracted (by taking damage, by harsh weather, and so on) while engaged in some action that requires your full attention. Such actions include casting a spell, concentrating on an active spell, directing a spell, using a spell-like ability, or using a skill that would provoke an attack of opportunity. In general, if an action wouldn’t normally provoke an attack of opportunity, you need not make a Concentration check to avoid being distracted.

If it's to be based off a skill, I would vote for concentration because of the passage above. However, I don't know that noncaster classes have much use for concentration otherwise - and even casters generally don't have very good ability with it (since, other than heavily armored priests, they aren't normally taking hits in the first place).

I think it could also be based on the leader or initiator of the retreat's charisma (ability to communicate the order to flee to the group) as well as the dexterity of the members, with harder checks the farther forward in formation you are (ability to make the required exit).

[Horace]

What if it just worked like a normal flee - whereas if the person using the retreat command fails to retreat, everyone essentially fails a flee command.

And if the retreat is successful then everyone flees successfully. I just don't see the point in adding a group command and then making it more difficult to code by involving mechanics that break down the group command into individual tests. I personally wouldn't ever use the retreat command in a fight if there was a good chance everyone but 1 or 2 people leave...ensuring the deaths of the one's who "failed" while the leader bravely runs away.

I think the representation of some people not making the retreat can be made just as easily with the leader's failed skill check...without the party running off without them

[Harroghty]

What about this: the command "retreat" from a group leader would initiate each group member to attempt to flee in sequence, back to front, with the group leader going last.

The mechanics would remain the same as flee. This would address the attempt of the group leader to both exercise some leadership and a little courage. If the leader just wanted to bolt on his own, he could just the extant command "flee".

[Selveem]

You know, I got to thinking about what should be checked when you attempt to flee.. Dex, Concentration, Listen, Charisma of the leader versus Wisdom (awareness) of the rest of the group...

But, I'm starting to think a lot of the problems we're facing is because so many people would like to complicate things.. When something tiny is changed it messes lots of different aspects of the game up.

I think, let's just make things easy here: Give the check on the party leader with the same modifier as flee. If successful, those with the config option retreat alongside the leader. If the leader fails, no one retreats. Those with it toggled off stay regardless.

[Hrosskell]

Selveem, Horace, and Co. make the best point to me. A leader's check would be the simplest, and I doubt the entire group would just "run off" and leave two dudes to fight a dragon because they couldn't get out in time. Config -retreat is a must because there are plenty of people who would simply rather die than flee a battle, and they aren't -just- Tempurians.

[Sairaven]

I can think of Helmites as having that config off.

[Dranso]

I believe this is a very good idea and I think others believe the same. I would like to continue this discussion and see if the command could be worked into the game.

[Selveem]

While I agree, this is just the discussion of the suggestion and possible fleshing out.

No matter how strongly the entire player base feels a command, feature, area, or function of code may be helpful, useful, or attract more players, the ultimate say will always be the staff.

Certainly, more players voicing their opinions positively may help.. Just wanted to make sure everyone knows that.

Dranso, we cool.