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Lately I can't help but noticing the number of dwarves flying around everywhere. They're zipping past in the wilderness, they're zipping past in Waterdeep, heck, they're even zipping past in ZK. I know dwarven clerics get air walk (and I do know where this spell comes from, I wonder why a dwarven cleric will train there? - though i'm not saying that any dwarf has trained that spell) and if a dwarf wants to fly around to shorten the travelling time and ease travelling in the wilderness, I'll be able to understand that. I know a dwarf who asks for a flight of spell to travel the wilderness and that's reasonable. But constantly flying in the cities?

What happened to the stubbornness of dwarves, their suspicion of magic, their preference for feet on the ground?

Aside from Gold Dwarves, I'll agree with the suspicion and dislike of magic.

The arcane seems to be commonly accepted by many of the Dwarves I've seen. My own cleric has had to adjust his view on magic because of his stats and experience, but the bulk of the Dwarves I play suspect its origin is from Satan (or the FK version thereof!)

I know lots of Dwarves fly around. I find it really odd, too, but sometimes it is indeed a necessity. I think Dwarves, once they reach their point of origin, need to remember to land afterwards to preserve their race's unique RP. If not for themselves, then for others.

But, every character has different RP and I respect that, I just think if you want to play a Dwarf, especially Shield Dwarf, you should try to do so within the perception of correct RP.

Bad dwarves/poor players, in my opinion.

At this point, anyone that has the ability (kismet) to make a dwarf should have enough knowledge of FR, or at least how things are in FK, to know our dwarf RP polices (they even have their own helpfile!). And the "I ask for a fly spell to get there fast" excuse I have heard once or twice irritates me further because it basically says they know the policy but are ignoring it. I consider such behavior strike-worthy. You are a dwarf. Play a dwarf. Don't ignore policies and house rules because you wanted to play a short-human with easy access to some trades (or whatever reason motivates these folks).

Gilain walks everywhere, half the time with his cart hitch to him. He has access to a number of characters that would toss a flight spell on him in a heartbeat, if he asked. But he doesn't ask. He's a dwarf and dwarves don't like arcane magic and definately do not like flying. He has had to fly 3 times since his creation years ago, all three very extreme situations such as his recent one aiding some folks in retrieving 8 or 9 dead characters' bodies from a certain big lizard.

Dwarves are a hard race to play and a difficult RP. If you are not up to the challenge, do not have patience, or simply want a easy ride to trades-ville please don't make a dwarf. As much as I enjoy seeing more dwarves in-game lately, I'd rather see 3 well played dwarves than 20 height-challenged humans that mine and drink alot.

When you only give certain trades and certain metals to certain races - those certain races will be played solely to get those things. It isn't the players fault, the game shouldn't force a race with things as mundane as armorsmithing and mithril.

Dwarves should be played because the player enjoys playing a dwarf. But that will never be ensured as long as dwarves have so many exclusive, and incredibly valuable, dwarf only things.

A simple answer to Zynarc's concern is "My dwarf enjoys magic and flying".

Then a simple excuse for things they do will be,

"My dwarf likes magic, flying, teleporting, riding, sailing, talking with elves, trading with drow, haggling with orcs..."

Wait. How extreme does it get before someone draws the line?

Wait. How extreme does it get before someone draws the line?

It's not a player's job to do that. If for some reason your PC really hates dwarves who do these things, then give 'em hell for it. Otherwise just realize as a player that the stuff is occurring because of exclusive dwarf trades/metals. And that will only be fixed once those things are either removed or opened up to everyone.

Mining metals are open to everyone - even named metals concerned can be mined by nondwarves. As far as I know, the only trade that is dwarf specific is armour smithing. And I don't see many dwarves especially specialising in it either.

It's not a player's job to draw the line. Yes, that's why I'm raising it up for discussion, unless by that you mean we should stop discussing here and accept it as it is. I want to know what people generally feel is alright for a dwarf to do.

Mining metals are open to everyone

Except if you want mithril PC made armor for some reason you have to be a dwarf. The rule doesn't make any sense, but if you think people don't play dwarf's for specifically that reason, you're kidding yourself.

My personal belief is that you should accept everyone's roleplay as is, unless it conflicts with the reality of the setting. What you are describing doesn't effect anything, or make anything untrue against the canon world. It just means 5 dwarves aren't stubborn magic haters.

I could see your point if it was something like a person making up false histories of regions and such, but you can't pick individuals and demand that they more appropriately represent the /generalities/ of a race. This isn't like alignment restrictions, it's more like someone going against favored classes.

Sorry Horace, that shouldn't be how it works.

Frankly, I don't care whether people are "forced" to become dwarves because we have "limited" mithril to that race. If they're becoming dwarves just for that, that is bad. Really bad. I mean heck, yes, we all create characters because "Oooh, wouldn't it be coool to be a wizard AND get access to Ardeep?" (or whatever) which is an instant basis for something I suppose. But once you've created that character, you actually make an effort to find out more about the race you're placing.

It annoys me that some elves are more like humans, definitely. Yes, the numbers of those have fallen recently (which really makes elves like Lath'lain look scary), but they are still there. But luckily with us here elves, there are several races for several "moods". And moon elves are the mongrels, really, who can get away with pretty much anything. So, great, that's elf-player get-out clause.

The fact is, Horace, this isn't one of those "just treat it IC" things. It is a dwarf. An entire race's history, culture etc, is devoted to a hostility towards magic, has always had a wariness of elves, etc. I mean, I like it that my elf character has actually had to work to become friends with two of her "best dwarf-friends". But now when I see flying dwarves left right and centre, I get a bit weird. Yes, it can be treated IC. Yes, there is an argument that this sort of reaction has to be IC. Unfortunately, when people have obviously not looked at anything about the race, it cheapens the effort others have gone to with their characters.

And also, whilst I suppose there's debate about it... there's a helpfile in game saying dwarves hate magic. In game. Giving advice on how to RP a dwarf. In game. We have had the dwarf "really hate magic" policy in game for a long time now. So there isn't really much argument as to what is expected of dwarf players in this game.

But anyway, if the discussion is truly spectacular, I'm sure the imms could change it, so, let me just say before the discussion continues: If we're discussing this, lets find another argument (one that actually stands up) that isn't "yes, well, you can't blame people for playing short humans because they need mithril". No. Never. Please god no. That's a purely OOC concern and has no basis in this discussion, actually. ICly a character can sigh and dream of a time they could mine mithril. Sure. Its a lovely, pretty, rare metal. But OOCly deciding to RP a dwarf, and disregarding dwarf helpfiles, culture, etc, etc, etc, because they want mithril? And then using the need for mithril as an excuse? I may have just got the wrong end of the stick on your point there, Horace, but... its really stunned me. OOC desire for a trade is NO excuse for bad RP. And it is RP. This isn't one of a thousand things I've agreed with you on, Horace. Most things can be just based IC. Dwarves not liking magic is one of them. No dwarves LIKE it.

Anyway, that's enough for now from me.

Horace wrote:

Mining metals are open to everyone

Except if you want mithril PC made armor for some reason you have to be a dwarf. The rule doesn't make any sense, but if you think people don't play dwarf's for specifically that reason, you're kidding yourself.

Non-Dwarves can mine mithril. I am pretty certain there are at least a few PCs out there with armorsmithing who are not Dwarves.

And I don't see many dwarves especially specialising in it either.

There aren't a lot, but I am. Does this mean I am bringing the joy of mithril to all? Haha; probably not.

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Another thing to bear in mind is that not all flying spells are arcane. The Dwarves you have seen using them are more often than not using air walk. Unfortunately, that has to be coded as flying to really get the sense of what the Dwarf is doing. He's not _actually_ flying, but he's doing more than levitating. He is, quite literally, walking on the air. It wouldn't be as scary to a Dwarf considering it's divine magic and is still giving sure footing as if on the ground.

I'm just explaining why people are playing dwarves who don't really care for dwarf roleplay.

Like Zynarc said, where does it stop? Is the next route an OOC chastising of some other stereotype that a player isn't adhering to? Do we call out half drows for not being super evil even though it's clear imms are alright with that?

If you want to get high and mighty about adhering to stereotypes, it should be done in the form of IC repercussions - definitely not on a public forum that can offend people. Especially when the entire story isn't there for us to see.

Let the imms/admins deal with the sensitive issue of telling people how to play their characters. I promise you guys we have the better end of that deal, just being able to play our own and not worry about others.


edit: I understand and agree with the spirit of the topic, I just know for certain that it's something you never want to get involved in as a player.

Dwarves who fly around and are all spelled-up are short-statured, long-bearded humans.

There is always an exceptional rp time for a dwarf to receive spells. When you read FR novels (and just about any other fantasy setting) you notice that the scenes where dwarves are the recipients of magic (or even ride a horse) are definable moments. Such scenes are not usually "Hey, I want to get to Tantras quickly, anyone got a fly spell?"

To be fair, no one flies from city to city in the novels.

If that's the expectation, that all races have to follow all social stereotypes for given race. Then the rule should be made.

But that carries over to many races with many stereotypes - and none more or less important than the dwarven ones mentioned here. I certainly believe that action to be a slippery slope.

I personally do not look well on player characters that exist only to reap the coded benefits of that race or class, that show little knowledge or partake in the roleplay. I don't see them as enjoying the rp but only moderately being aware of it. In my opinion if you feel restricted or limited in a race or class, you should not pursue that race or class or even alignment. Just simply leave it to those that thrive in it or seek to create ways to expand and make it better. Dwarves should not be flying or enjoying the ease of arcane magic, they should not be riding horses with ease, swimming with ease etc. If they are then they might as well be as Lathander stated, short-statured, long-bearded humans. No way around it. A waste of perfectly good kismet...unless they are rare and ostracized wizard dwarves.

I agree, except the characters in question are most likely using Air Walk. Which, as I stated above gets the 'flying' flag when it's more like an improved levitation spell. Air walk, also, is Divine Magic; not arcane.

I'm on the fence about that one, honestly. Dwarves like solid earth beneath their feet, but if the air itself is 'solid' during the duration of the divine spell I think it's alright.

Not all races have helpfiles, OOC set policies, and years of discussion/debate that nail down the basic RP restrictions of the race. Dwarves do. Shall we look the other way or 'deal with it IC' if a drow abuses coded systems and gets to the surface? Far as I am concerned, its the same thing. Its not an IC issue if there are OOC policies in place.

The only trade dwarves are allowed that isn't main stream is armoursmithing. Let it be taught by some NPC in Waterdeep, for all I care. Its not a 'special' trade. Its tedious and long (perhaps longer) to level as most other trades. The only reason I think its doesn't have an NPC trainer is the push for player teachers we have been working on in the recent months. Problem with that is the small number of armoursmiths in the higher teirs and even fewer (if any) with the feat points to spare for 4 teaching feats. I know Gilain won't be teaching because of that restriction (well, that and stat restrictions). *shrug*

"Because I want to be an armorsmith" is not a valid reason to dismiss rules, policies, and blow your nose on real dwarf players. It is a big "strike/ban me" neon sign above your account.

By the by, "I'm used to it" it not much of an excuse to use arcane magic. Longsaddle mages and Silverymoon have helped Mithril Hall in many conflicts and have been friends with them for years. Dwarves know what arcane magic is, they still do not trust/like it as they trust/like god given divine magic. Not pointed this any one particular, mind you. Its another excuse I hear in justification now and then I wanted to bring it up.

Selveem wrote:I agree, except the characters in question are most likely using Air Walk. Which, as I stated above gets the 'flying' flag when it's more like an improved levitation spell. Air walk, also, is Divine Magic; not arcane.

I'm on the fence about that one, honestly. Dwarves like solid earth beneath their feet, but if the air itself is 'solid' during the duration of the divine spell I think it's alright.

I wonder where dwarves are learning air walk. I know where Nysan learned it and I highly doubt dwarves would go there normally. I hope it is via player-teaching lessons...

So now are all elves suppose to be good? Should people be confronted OOC about their nonhuman worshipping a human god that their race doesn't typically worship? It's a game. A simple answer for any of these dwarf concerns is "I was raised by humans in an orphanage". It isn't innate, it's cultural. Regardless of how a person of a race acts, it's still that race...stating that if you don't act like an X you essentially aren't one, diminishes any PC that the player worked hard on.

The problem would be fixed very quickly if the outdated mithril rule was removed, and nondwarves had an armorsmithing outlet.

Again, there are no long standing OOC policies with detailed helpfiles about elves having to be good. The dwarf basic RP standards have been in place since dwarves were made playable characters. This is not an IC situation. It is players ignoring OOC set policies. Same line as drow abusing code to reach the surface, neutral wizards using Silverymoon then "going bad", or giving step by step instructions on how to get around Undermountain. These are long standing OOC policies, not a simple "well, other dwarves just won't like him/her in-game" reaction. There are no list of rules in-game telling dwarves how to act, its OOC and should be dealt with OOC. I would go as far as suggesting it is dealt with as the neutral wizards were dealt with: abusers are deleted. Imms would know the difference between air walk and arcane spells.

There is no restriction on Mithril, not at the moment at least. I know several elves and humans that mine it regularly. The only restriction is armoursmithing and, as I said before, it is likely being pushed towards the player-taught method of getting it to the playerbase.

If they are set policies, let the imms deal with it - send in a complaint. Bringing "he stinks at playing X" ooc is bad pool.