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I already know, that this has probably been suggested millions upon millions of times. But I recently started playing Neverwinter Nights, and learned that NWN takes place in the FR setting, and I learned of Blackguard, the counteract of Paladins.

Now, I don't know too much about the history of the MUD, or it's politics and what they believe. But I've noticed the very lack of activity with Evil gods, and evil RP in general. And I think, the addition of the Blackguard class might be able to increase evil RP, and give evil gods something worth doing. Being a normal player of Evil characters, I feel that we should have equal rights inregards to RP. Which means, if Goodies get Rangers and Paladins. We should get whatever the counteract of Rangers, is and blackguard.

I don't know how long it would take, nor really care. I've been waiting for Barbarians since I first starting playing about a year or so ago(On and off, but still playing), and I'm willing to wait for Blackguards.

I also know how many people will probably shun this idea, smack me, or say "haha u nub no blkgardz 4 u." And I'm sure the immortals themselves will have at least one thing to say about this. Be it saying "No" or whatever it may be.

I just think we evils should have our paladin-esque classes.

This was a battle (Anti-Paladin/Barbarian) thats been fought in the +7 years Ive been playing here. Im interested to know what the new administration (or newest rather) stance on this is.

Heh. I'm sure it has. And if I start the fire again, I intend on keeping it burning.

I like the idea of a blackguard in theory... But in practice it's giving a lot of power to somebody who has no regard in using them. Sort of like the good versus evil ranger question. You get a lot of perks to being a ranger, but it comes with rules(with great power comes responsibility, anyone?). For example, you get to skin corpses. But you can't skin sentient beings' corpses. But what's stopping an evil ranger from doing it? An evil ranger would get all the pros of a good ranger and none of the cons, so to speak.

That's the hole I envision blackguards falling into. They get great powers of smiting, battle prowess mixed with spell casting, etc etc., but they don't have the restrictions that paladins do(ie no killing innocents, only fighting evil, the eight virtues of Honesty, Generosity, Valor, Humility, Courtesy, Fealty, Honor, and Chastity... That's a lot to follow!). So if blackguards were considered, I would like to see their class carefully carefully planned to match the format of the paladin; that is a class that must undergo steps in roleplaying before being "anti-knighted," and a class that has its own restrictions.

I believe that the closest thing to this sort of role-play is joining the order of the Ebon Spur currently. I am actually pretty indifferent on the subject but I agree with Jaenoic that this sort of class would require a hard and fast ethos, something to keep a PC class blackguard from becoming a reaver in opposition to the game's policies.

I don't think that in term of raw power rangers or paladins are superior to wizards or clerics, and those classes that can be played by evil characters.

Still I think that those classes; evil ranger or anti-paladin/blackguard should have a special code of conduct, rangers should be bound to the wilderness for the most part, after all are rangers and not fighters, blackguards should be examplars of their faith.

I agree but its not like we would be handing out BlackGuard title to anyone as soon as they exit char-gen. Look at Lathlain, all of the power he has, he doesnt abuse it. Hes not going around mass slaughtering PC's cause hes the big bad boogeyman, hes General of the ebon spur one of the most organized and influential forces of the muds current timeframe. Blackguards will be Lawful Evil and nothing in the Lawful Evil ethos calls for wanton random killings which it sounds like people are worried about. Funnily enough most Evil characters dont see themselves as evil, especially Lawful Evil, they see themselves as doing what it is needed at the time to make ends meet. After all there is nothing inherently evil, or so were told, of a Good Paladin committing mass genocide of slaying goblins, kobolds, orcs, ect ect, all sentient beings mind you. Its just a matter of perspective.

Exactly, although, based off Neverwinter Nights, which I'm certain is based directly from the Pen/paper game. Blackguard can be of any evil alignment, plus, with evil alignment we got the kismet cost already in place for it. Which would definately filter out any en masse of swarming newbies thinking just because they're blackguard they can go slaughter Waterdeep's citizens.

But yeah, Lawful Evil would be a good limitation to them, but then thinking about it, Neutral Evil would also be acceptable. Paladins aren't handed out in chargen either, didn't we -just- have like 2 knightings of paladins?

I'm against this for the short term. I would like to see the paladin population go up significantly before we introduce an anti-paladin class. Because naturally everyone wants an evil paladin more than a goodly one.

I sort of like the idea. Though many cons will have to be worked with and very well thought against to protect the balance.
A while ago, if I recall correctly there use to be a limit to how many paladins/squires/etc. could be in the certain deity group. For example, only five active paladins of Mystra at a time. So, maybe some sort of limit on the "black guard" could be placed like that for each deity. As well as kismit, rules, ethos, both ic and occ, and maybe even rp hours. It would take -alot- of time and involvement and trust, just as the current and past paladins, but I think it could actually turn into something very interesting.

And although the Ebon Spurs, is a magnificent guild, it is pretty much oriented to one deity, as far as I am aware (but let me know if Im wrong! ), and rightfully so.

So my thoughts on it right now, is that it is an interesting idea.

And maybe have it require an application? I wouldn't want to see tons of Blackguards suddenly spring up in the Keep, but the infusion of a few new evil characters would certainly be a good thing. And by using an application process, the amount could be easily regulated, and guidelines set down for whatever sort of rules they would need to follow.

If Blackguard requires an app, then Paladins would have to require it. We're trying to make them equal, not favor one over the other, they'd have to go through the training process like Paladins. Which would be weekly training sessions, rather then starting out randomly out of chargen. However, the first Blackguard might require an app so that we have one that'll train the others.

I believe that the blackguard class *SHOULD* require an app. The eventual restrictions and limitations that are bound to come down on it, I would want to make sure we only have the most able and willing people representing the class. I know its a bit restrictive, but if there are only going to be 5 blackguards ever, i want to make sure they're the 5 most dedicated people for it. As far as diety wise they really should come from one Diety (which were still waiting on wether hes coming in or not) and that would be Bane. What better way to have such a massive event as the rebirth of Bane be marked by finally allowing him to have his own Paladin corps. No offense but the other Gods really dont support a Paladin class as they are represented here in the Mud. The evil side Gods are lacking a bit in both depth and richness as they are represented in pen and paper. Which is fine, its the best we have to work with in the mud atm, so no complaints. Allowing only Banite Blackguards of Lawful Evil alignment would also help alleviate the problems everyone seems to "fear" of some psycho running around doing mass murder. Banites are clever, they are smart, they are extremely disciplined, and they are ruthless. Banites only care about one thing and that is Absolute Power politically, and militarily. So I see the Blackguard class as being extremeley socially and politcally active. It all depends on how the playerbase receives them as well, if the first thing you do is draw swords and call in buddies then you are creating a hostile environment, dont be afraid to RP something different then the mass gathering of farmers with torches and pitchforks to take out the evil. If the blackguards do come in give them a chance to do something other than forcing their hands into PKill situations and you just might be surprised.

Paladins require an app when you do not chose to play the 'common' faiths. And the process of becoming a paladin is a very long one, it can take 2 rl years+ and it is closely surveyed by at least one Imm. And else I completely agree with Gwain's statement above, the paladin-number and activity should increase significantly, before even thinking about introducing a counter-class.

Easiest solution is to cut the blackguard off at the knees.

What I mean is, don't make it a class, make it a specialty faith organization associated with Bane.

The reasoning here is that we gain nothing by limiting it to five or three members but having still having to create a class for them. Why not simply create an ic faith order that can be filled once the appropriate god is introduced?

Paladins currently are small in number because of the lengths one must go to join. Eventually that may change.

Coded Anti-paladins that you would need to apply for would be highly improbable, because like paladins they would still need training and trainers train them. Not to mention if they mirrored paladins they would have most paladin beneifits without restraint and may not fit in a game that has restrictive and structured pk rules. That is a bit loose, but in the same vein we do not support assassins, simply because they are built to assassinate others.

I like the idea to connect them to Bane as a faith based order. That would work with or without code to support anti-paladins.

Although we could work out a way to make them very similar to paladins.

Using a certain General of the Ebon Spur for example, who is unceasingly polite. Maybe Blackguards still have to follow the main rules of Paladins, but slanted slightly?

- Courtesy

Always remain courteous, speak softly, and use your insults only in the most mild-mannered way possible. Remain calm, and cause harm and fear to your enemies by always remaining dignified as you strip away their deceptions and seek the truths that hurt them most. (e.g, a Blackguard wouldn't go, "Oi! You! Fattie! Die!", he would bow once, "Regrettably, sir, it may be time for your final dance with death, if you still can dance with such a comfortable form.")

- Industry

Always work hard for your superiors. It is humbling in the service of your God to work at menial tasks. It improves the mind's health, improves your fitness. Always ensure payment is given for your industry, to offset any expenses your travels may incur, and to give the extra to your faith.

- Poverty

Beyond what you need to further the power of the darkness, you donate your coin and wealth to other agents of evil so that they may further destabilize Faerun. Remember, you are but one man (or woman), and you will draw the light to fight you at every step of the way. What better way to destroy the light, than to have them so busy fighting you, that they ignore the mercenary you hired, or the wizard whose studies you helped fund?

- Chastity

Do not love a man or woman more than your God. You are his tool, dedicated to his service. Not for you, the casual indulgence in petty evils. For you, the disciplined commitment to a world ruled by your Masters.

Basically, if the Blackguards had to follow such a regimented rule, not only would they actually be interesting to play, but they would be PERFECT opponents to paladins. Now I know in terms of canon, Blackguards are COMPLETE ANTITHESIS to paladins (e.g, no laws, no virtues, etc). But we can always tweak them on the MUD to make sure that they are essentially the same, but evil. That would really cut down on the potential problems with Blackguards, whilst making them fascinating to roleplay as.

Part of me wishes I hadn't made this post now, because I desperately want to meet one!

~Ol

Blackguard isn't a standard class.

To bring about blackguards before introducing monks, sorcerers, or barbarians would be a huge oversight. Core classes are the stock of the forgotten realms universe, prestige classes are flecks of spice. Every prestige class written by wotc has the same validity arguments as Blackguard - so I think it's a little premature to choose one specific PrClass over even the core classes.

Basing this only on principle, not on any RP aspects. Core classes first - prestige second.

Good point, dude. Prestige classes have been discussed for a long time, but I agree that other classes have priority. You might apply for role-play like this; I would recommend a long-term background of similar behavior precede such an application.

Here's the link to the excerpt:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030413e

if this class were to be put into the game in the future there would be the obvious conflict between paladins and blackguards. From my understanding of the rules paladins always had dark knights in which they would have to face in mortal combat or who would be their arch nemisis

With all the talk about Blackguards, I must ask:

Is it possible to create a warrior, in the hopes of going paladin, but apply to an evil faith? Is it possible, I wonder, to become a Lawful Evil paladin, with all the same rules and restrictions that apply to their good counterparts?

Also, should that not be possible, what is to stop an evil fighter from role-playing the part of a holy warrior, showing his devotion and dedication to his evil god as if he were a paladin without benefits? Earning his abilities via RP, rather than by a hard code.

Just some thoughts as I wake up for the day...