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for some time now i have been throwing ideas around and getting opinons as to if a coded army for waterdeep would be a good idea, i am aware that the city already has an army so it would be RPed as a recruitment drive or something of that sort. It would be similar to the Watch but a completly different roleplay and experiance with different goals/duties in mind to the watch.

It would mean much more scope for fighters to rp but not just fighters can get involved, in my ideas a have planned out RPs for just about every character class and so just hoping to get peoples opinons if it will be a worthwhile addition to the game?

If anyone wants to see the ideas that i have (a fairly large word document) PM me

What would be the goal of the army? What would they do that the Watch does not? Armies are created to fight, who would this army fight? Would that conflict with the policy on non-PvP oriented role plays?

Perhaps this army is amassed in response to the rumored war with the orcs?

PC's, by the nature of the game, are pretty much required to not have 9 to 5 jobs. I could see an adventurer offering their services as a mercenary for a specific battle (or even for free), but the day to day mundane tasks of being in the employ of a nation/state hinder being an adventurer.

I strongly suggest keeping armies of nations off screen - they are way too large scale to be properly dealt with in this setting. Waterdeep already has an army - it's just off screen. If the new Lords direct it to wipe the howling peaks off the map, the IMMs can decide how that action fairs, and it's consequences.

That's just my opinion. Let's keep the scope of the game at the adventurer level.

An army is not put in place just to fight it's put in place to protect, if any of you have read anything about the Waterdeep guard then it would carry all of those duties. The army is also a political tool for the city (now that it has politics for PCs) which opens up quite a few RP oppotunities besides training. For example the lords alliance could be brought much more into the game has waterdeep would be able to interact on a PC level, Bane returning could be a big oppotunity for an army. These that i have listed are just the imm controled events that it could have an impact on, myself and a few others have come up with quite a few RP ideas for everyday army life. With regards to augmenting the Watch, if they required a little extra force that is how they would help. The Watch currently has a directive to protect the city when needed but the army would take complete control over an defensive decisions for waterdeep and it's allies.

With regards to the non-pvp policy, we have thought that any pvp engagement would first have to approved by seniors in the army and if it is a prolonged RP then the imms but this doesn't rule out the fact that any future army will mostly be PCs controling enemy armies of mobs for imm controled RPs, any evil PC attack on the city then they would most likely end up in a fight anyway, the army just adds another dimension to the whole thing.

i am rambling on far too much so il stop

Bad enough the Watch oversteps its reach at times, and now we have to deal with armies? No thanks.

Elerian, that's an IC view, not an OOC one, surely!

Anyway, about the idea. Obviously, the army already exists. Not with PCs, but ICly, the Waterdhavian Guard numbers in the thousands. As well as the Griffon Riders (Knights?) of Waterdeep, and other things. The Waterdhavian Guard has (in the FR books/lore) ridden to war several times (I think most recently, against the Shades of Anauroch?). It does exist IC as an army. So it is there to be "played" with, as it were.

Personally however, as a player, I don't think we have the numbers to fully support a PC-based army. My only OOC, player suggestion would be to just have titles over the army, rather than coding the actually army. That is, making a General, and several Captains. Maybe in the future, we could code it so in certain times the General and Captain could actually summon three or for mobs to fight with them, reflecting code-wise, some troops?

That would make sure the players would have to be trustworthy of course, and that they are only ever used in Waterdeep-licensed conflicts. If a Captain is beyond Waterdeep's territory and "summons" troops, they've just caused a war. And nobody will be very happy with that!

The same sort of "title-with-summons" could be used across the board, potentially. So, the Ebon Spur captains and generals can use a summon command to gather three or four of their troops. If someone wants to apply to be a Purple Dragon (*ahem*) they could use a summon command to gather three or four of their troops. Whilst it is not enough to dramatically unbalance the MUD, it means "small, localised raiding parties" can be RPed. In times of war, maybe the imms can have a few dice rolls behind the scenes to see which units win where, and provide regular updates to the battle?

Those would be my ideas. Keep the idea simple. Don't code a complete Army, with ranks from private to General. Just create the officers and assume the Army exists below them?

I understand the idea here, but I disagree ardently with the train of thought it invites.

Briek wrote:The army is also a political tool for the city (now that it has politics for PCs) which opens up quite a few RP oppotunities besides training.

If you create an army to deal with political enemies then you must have not only the army of one entity (Waterdeep), but another to fight it. In creating another formal, regular army somewhere else you now begin to amass armies without suitable purpose to engage them productively.

Lerytha wrote:The same sort of "title-with-summons" could be used across the board, potentially. So, the Ebon Spur captains and generals can use a summon command to gather three or four of their troops.

This does two things that I am concerned about: it removes some of the pressure to increase PC membership (why recruit when you have a gang of troops?) and it also adds a substantial benefit to some characters over others. The battles between high-level fighters, for example, are often decided by 10% of one or the other's health. A gang of troopers, however impotent as individuals, could become a significant advantage.

Overall, I feel that PCs should deal with PCs and that the battles of adventurers should not be assigned too much worth beyond their due. Adventurers are hired by cities to fight other adventurers that the army does not bother to deal with and now, with lords, this can happen. Perhaps start an adventuring band dedicated to protecting Waterdeep instead of an army? Consider the Gray Hands.

WotC wrote:Gray Hand enforcer, CSW (City of Splendors: Waterdeep), p.77, Gray Hand enforcers are highly trained members of the Gray Hands, Waterdeep's elite, high-powered fighting force.

The suggestion of implementing the Gray Hand for PC's has already been suggested in a submission in a matter of days after the election was first announced.

Currently the only Gray Hand enforcers in the game are played by IMMs.

Overall you can think of..

The Watch as normal Police.
The Guard as the Army/National Guard
The Gray Hand Enforcers as an elite counter-terrorist tactical unit. They are the SWAT, YAMAM, GSG 9, ERT, etc of Waterdeep.

Another way to go about this would be to form exactly what the Gray Hand already is.. your own adventuring group ala classic tabletop how people used to play the game. A good example? The Burning Blades.

Who knows, perhaps certain groups would compete to gain sponsorship by a city and become their special strike force. Or perhaps they will simply be pure mercenary and just take on short jobs.

All in all, there is a reason most Guard, Watch, Army, NPCs in any game are low level fodder and the true big bads are the adventuring company that waltzes into the country, saves the princess, kills the evil wizard, slays the dragon, and reaps all the rewards.

I think that having the Waterdeep Guard in game would be nice. We could use it as a group for the lower level fighters and other characters. There are a number of possible rp situations that could stem from this addition.

And how would that different from the city watch?

I think that what could be really interesting would be having a player-run mercenary company helping the city, the members of the company answers to the leader of it, which in turn answers to the highest ranking member of the city watch who pays them according their results. Sort of the Flaming Fist company in Baldur's gate for those that know.

Another alternative would be the moonstars, http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Moonstars which are another organization based in Waterdeep

Moonstars don't work for the Guv'ment though, they're just Harper-Lite run by Blackstaff.

Player run companies are great, for the first six months, after that good luck trying to find anyone active in them.

Elerian wrote:Player run companies are great, for the first six months, after that good luck trying to find anyone active in them.

Touche. I believe that there is a "middle of the road" position though. Mercenary companies or adventuring bands can be formed (in accordance with the guidelines found in help "Mercenary bands, adventuring parties and fellowships") and may offer their services to the player "open lords" of Waterdeep without becoming an institutional entity. In other words, during the lifespan of their activity (however long or short) adventuring bands could serve the city's interests and when one dies down or out, another can replace it.

This has advantages for both the city and for the group. The city does not have a militant organization sitting around with a large potential to devolve into a PK hit squad whenever the city has nothing more productive planned for it. The group now has an activity that generates role-play for it and may delay the fate that Elerian points out because now they have something more sustainable than simply doing coded quests together.

These are the guidelines for player-run parties outlined by the help file:

* We will only consider approving an official adventuring party for
long term roleplayed characters. The players of the characters should have
a decent amount of kismet.
* It should benefit a large group of characters, would actually benefit the game,
not just form a clicky group.
* The group leaders should be prepared to design a small area if appropriate for
the group.
* Submission of a charter for the group.
* There must be a good in character reason for the formation of the group.
* Unique group name that is likely to have a good IC reason for being.
* None of the character members can have strikes or be considered trouble makers OOC.
(Try typing "help parties" to find this help file.)

I think that all adventuring parties have a limited lifespan anyway, I mean for example when a tabletop group gets together, characters die, players leave and then new charcters come in and so do new players.

Briek wrote:I think that all adventuring parties have a limited lifespan anyway, I mean for example when a tabletop group gets together, characters die, players leave and then new charcters come in and so do new players.

I fail to see how that description is different than any other orgainization currently in the game or in real life. Why is it a deterrant? Train replacements. Recruit new members. So long as someone is running the show then it will go on.

The whole point of an adventuring company that contracts for the government being the better option is because your vocation is still adventurer and you can go do adventurer things. If you join the army then that is now your job and you -shouldn't- have time to go run off and loot a tomb, or save a damsel. You'll be too busy patroling the walls and never leveling because there is no experience in waiting for your shift to end so you can get a quick ale down at the tavern.

As I said before..

Isaldur wrote:Who knows, perhaps certain groups would compete to gain sponsorship by a city and become their special strike force. Or perhaps they will simply be pure mercenary and just take on short jobs.

All in all, there is a reason most Guard, Watch, Army, NPCs in any game are low level fodder and the true big bads are the adventuring company that waltzes into the country, saves the princess, kills the evil wizard, slays the dragon, and reaps all the rewards.

Just my 2 bits... the dwarves have an army called the Hammers of Moradin and I have yet to see a call to arms of the current PC members. Doesn't mean it might not come, but I like your enthusiasm. I could see the IMM's using the Hammers as a testing ground to see if your ideas would work.

Belose wrote:Just my 2 bits... the dwarves have an army called the Hammers of Moradin and I have yet to see a call to arms of the current PC members. Doesn't mean it might not come, but I like your enthusiasm. I could see the IMM's using the Hammers as a testing ground to see if your ideas would work.

The Hammers of Moradin are not quite an army, they are a special knightly order of dwarven paladins (3rd ed allows more than just humans etc to become paladins I believe)

Actually the Hammers of Moradin are an order of holy warriors, not knights. A paladin is not always a knight after all, and vise versa. While PrCs are not in FK which means the Hammers are just a holy order-esque guild that followers of Moradin can join, I would like to think anyone applying to roleplay one meets the criteria for the PrC as closely as possible FKwise.

Not all the info on them there is, but the FR Wiki has a decent sized blurb.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Hammer_of_Moradin

Now back to topic,

Holy Orders are far different than an Army as well, same with Knightly Orders that are religion based. The reason why joining a knightly order or holy order is perfect for a player is because you may work with Governments depending on how close-knit it is with your church (I'm lookin at you Halls of Justice!) but ultimately you only answer to your church.

Being a member of a government organization like the Waterdeep Guard and Watch -ties- you to that government. You are not an adventurer that can come and go as you please, you are a soldier or law enforcement official and that is your primary concern. Not running off to Zhentil Keep to face down Fzoul, or chasing Orcs through Shilmista. Your job is based in Waterdeep, and you cannot do it if you are not in Waterdeep.

Ask anyone you know in the military what would happen if they disobeyed a direct order because it is against their religion, or if they ran off and went AWOL for any reason.

Athglor, here are a couple of excerpts from the City of Splendors campaign supplement that nicely sum up the differences...

City Watch
The City Watch serves as Waterdeep's police force, patrolling the city and ensuring the well-being of its inhabitants. In addition to arresting those who break the laws, Watch patrols often assist passersby with heavy loads, give directions, search for lost children, provide basic medical aid, and referee verbal disputes.

This section goes on to explain the command structure; basically the commander of the watch reports directly to Piergeiron.

Each ward is commanded by a ward civilar and has a number of guard posts, each commanded by a senior civilar. Each patrol is commanded by a civilar, who reports to the local senior civilar. There is also one skulk(made up of a half-dozen rangers and rogues) per ward commanded by a Senior Skulk, and one arcanum (made up of a half-dozen sorcerers and wizards) per ward commanded by a Senior Watch-Wizard.

There is also information about uniforms and procedure which I won't bore you with.

City Guard
The City Guard serves as Waterdeep's army, defending the City of Splendors from attack and patrolling the surrounding countryside. The Guard also serves as bodyguards for Piergeiron and as honor guards for visiting diplomats. Contingents of the Guard and the Watch jointly man the city gates; the Guard controls access, while the Watch observes those who enter, pursues fugitives, and escorts visitors into the city.

The ranks and command structure are similar to the Watch except that the Guard are apportioned to garrisons along the city walls and various other places.

Also, take note that the Griffon Cavalry is an elite company of the Guard.

So in short the Watch is the police force and the Guard is the military.

On a personal note I have been working on the Waterdeep dungeon and have been planning on expanding this to all of Castle Waterdeep, once the first part is completed and the second part is properly approved. This will hopefully include an area for each the Guard and the Watch to have quests and what not...