Mind-shielding again.

[Alitar]

Celestial mounts shy away from evils even if they wear an item with mind-shielding.

[Harroghty]

I think that's fair though. You are shielding your mind, yes, but a being of intrinsic good from the Celestial Planes is reacting to you on an elemental level. I do think it's a little stupid how they shy away though. I would think that a battle mount sent by the gods would have a greater bias for action.

[Selveem]

I think that's fair though. You are shielding your mind, yes, but a being of intrinsic good from the Celestial Planes is reacting to you on an elemental level. I do think it's a little stupid how they shy away though. I would think that a battle mount sent by the gods would have a greater bias for action.

I disagree; that doesn't make sense. If it did, then your full-blown God or Demigod who may or may not be celestial of origin would tell you whether someone is good or evil via aura.

Either way, it's a bit unfair and causes more metagaming vs players: "My pegasus only does that when evils are around. It's not that he smells heavily of pepper and it's making my pegasus uncomfortable; this guy is definitely evil."

[Harroghty]

The wear of a ring of mind shielding "is continually immune to detect thoughts, discern lies, and any attempt to magically discern her alignment". I do not see this as an attempt to magically discern the alignment as much as a reaction between opposites (contrast casting a spell with a physical reaction). Really, the mount should notice something in the room and maybe not know the exact source. In any case, like any alignment detection, it should be up to the players to use good judgment.

It's a leap to suggest that this leads to "metagaming". It could, but so could a lot of other things, too.

[Selveem]

Re: Harroghty:

I understand what you're saying, but the echo is no different than the celestial mount would give when an evil wasn't shielded. It's unfair to expect a player to send an otell every time they see the echo if the evil is affected by Mind Shielding just as unfair as it is to expect said shielded player to osay in the room to everyone around that he's affected by mind shielding. Either way, it is an involuntary metagaming response triggered in the brain: pegasus shies -> pegasus shies only around evils -> dude is evil.

Further, a pegasus' ability to detect alignment is a spell-like ability and not innate. As such, it is affected by magic just as if it were a spell that was cast. It can even be dispelled. Here's a link that briefly explains spell-like abilities for everyone who isn't familiar: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilit ... eAbilities

Because it's a spell-like ability, the magical defenses would be sufficient to overcome a pegasus' detection.

[Tarven]

It's a leap to suggest that this leads to "metagaming". It could, but so could a lot of other things, too.

Totally off topic, but if I hear one more person say, "I recognized your wardrobe, so I saw through your disguise(or polymorph)" I'm going to punch them.

[Harroghty]

But my point is that it would be innate. If you look at the old Warriors of Heaven supplement it talks about how celestrial creatures have a different ability and "[it is] more potent than the spell of the same name". It adds that "[t]his power functions automatically".

The mobiles flagged as celestial mounts are not engaging anything, it is automatic, in the same way that paladins in this game automatically see alignments without having to use x number of instances of know alignment or detect evil per day.

[Alitar]

I think the solution might be for the code to check for the affect before directing an action at the evil and if the ring is present, perhaps a simple snort and glance around. At present I wouldn't remotely call trusting your mount's instinct to be meta for the pally, I simply contest those instincts and feel they are magical in nature and wouldn't so fully overcome the enchantment.In regards to the reaction, I could understand the mount eyeing evils and perhaps showing faint signs of aggression rather than shying from them.


Sorry if this is convoluted or poorly writ, it is hard to do this from a phone web browser.

[Gwain]

Animals are different than people. They use their senses differently, they can rely on things that other more intelligent beings cannot, smell, taste, scents radiating from hours or days ago. Imagine a celestial mount, intelligent, goodly, a being from a purely positive realm being able to detect the smallest morsel of evil while others may fail. I like to look at full blooded celestial as angelic forms, meaning its hard to fool them because they're divinely infused. The same could be said for infernal forms. The point is, angel or devil, you usually can't fool a pure one. Strictly my opinion.

[Selveem]

But my point is that it would be innate. If you look at the old Warriors of Heaven supplement it talks about how celestrial creatures have a different ability and "[it is] more potent than the spell of the same name". It adds that "[t]his power functions automatically".

The mobiles flagged as celestial mounts are not engaging anything, it is automatic, in the same way that paladins in this game automatically see alignments without having to use x number of instances of know alignment or detect evil per day.

Apples to oranges. That book was 2nd edition. While many of us reference older books for lore, we don't use THACO on FK; the core mechanics of FK are 3.0 and 3.5.

[Harroghty]

Yeah, Selveem, we are based upon those, but not bound to them. Much of our treatment of paladins smacks more of 2E than anything else (and certainly their existing features are rooted in that edition). Like I said, I could see a change to this reaction for it to be more generic and less fearful seeming, but I do not feel that a ring of mind shielding should trump the mount's ability to recognize evil.

[Selveem]

Would a fair compromise be that the NPC reacts the same way to all evils and all individuals affected by mind shielding?

[Harroghty]

Ideally, the paladin warhorses would react in increasing notable ways based upon how evil the presence is. I do not see any reason why they would react just to mind shielding. Why do you suggest that?

[Selveem]

Ideally, the paladin warhorses would react in increasing notable ways based upon how evil the presence is. I do not see any reason why they would react just to mind shielding. Why do you suggest that?

Good point, since they can't cast 'know alignment'; they can only cast detect good. I was thinking if their detection spells failed completely it might make them uneasy. In the end, I just don't think it's fair for an non-leveled NPC controlled by a player to have greater powers than a 20th level wizard.

[Tarven]

I just don't think it's fair for an non-leveled NPC controlled by a player to have greater powers than a 20th level wizard.

You're kidding, right? Even if you mean '20th level' by tabletop standards, this is a being from another plane. Not only that, Paladins put their time in, and -earn- their stuff. Just because they didn't spend 9 months leveling the NPC, doesn't mean they didn't put in 9 months of patiently waiting, just to -become- a paladin, and an additional 3 months to -get- the mount. That's a year. MINIMUM. The PC put their time in on the character, leveling the mount or otherwise.

Not to mention, any magic that exists can be overcome, generally. True sight overcomes invis. Paladin mounts get edgy around evil people. *shrugs*

Look at it this way. According to 'detect evil' in SRD;

Lingering Aura
An evil aura lingers after its original source dissipates (in the case of a spell) or is destroyed (in the case of a creature or magic item). If detect evil is cast and directed at such a location, the spell indicates an aura strength of dim (even weaker than a faint aura). How long the aura lingers at this dim level depends on its original power:

Okay, so, for the sake of argument, maybe it's like an invisible person that walks across a puddle. You don't -see- the person, but you see the effect they have on the world around them. The mount doesn't -see- the evil, directly, but catches a whiff of it on the air, as that which the evil person touches is affected by their presence.

The point is, this can be argued, really, either way, until one is blue in the face. It comes down to balance and theme, over mechanics. I haven't ever seen the specific emotes, but really, is this the worst of the meta-gaming that goes on here?

And finally, RP it! If the mount freaks out while you're in the room, act like someone is hidden, or invisible. Start looking around and shouting, "Show yourself!". If you're a mage, cast detect invis, and point, then go running out of the room, yelling, "Hey, come back here!" Go back when the paladin's mount isn't around, and he won't see the aura, right? So, you must have chased off the villainous fiend! Good for you!

[Alitar]

Just my wondering...
I would like to see perhaps 3 different smotes from the paladin mounts. For good-aligned characters, maybe a non-aggressive smote. For neutral(and mind-shielded) maybe something that might indicate suspicion. For evil, something outright aggressive, being as these are, in fact, mounts that are meant to war on evil. A low growl, a screech, something relevant to the animal. ALSO I'd like for the paladin to be able to set these three reactions somehow so that it would be specific to their mount. That way if your mount is a giant owl, it doesn't snort and paw the ground. Or if it's a griffon belonging to a very aggressive pallie, it might give a piercing cry and eye the subject.

I guess I'd like to see the option given to the paladin to decide how his mount might react. If Mindshield wouldn't convince the mount that the subject is neutral, then maybe a fourth variety of smote to show its suspicion and uncertainty?

[Alitar]

Could this be moved to suggestions please?

[Selveem]

The point is, this can be argued, really, either way, until one is blue in the face. It comes down to balance and theme, over mechanics.

Since you want to take such a hard stance since the first paragraph of your post, I'll take one, too: no, it can't be argued either way. Cannon is very specific on this.

I just don't think it's fair for an non-leveled NPC controlled by a player to have greater powers than a 20th level wizard.

You're kidding, right? Even if you mean '20th level' by tabletop standards, this is a being from another plane.

Yes, tabletop level 20. No, I wasn't kidding, but I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

This ring is usually of fine workmanship and wrought from heavy gold. The wearer is continually immune to detect thoughts, discern lies, and any attempt to magically discern her alignment.

Without disabling the ring, a level 20 Wizard can't cast detect thoughts and get it to surpass the inherent magical protections on the ring. A level 20 Cleric can't cast discern lies, detect evil, or know alignment to get the character's alignment, but an NPC can just because it's from the Outer Planes? Please. Because the creature gets it as an innate spell-like ability? Fine, let's just make all Dragons overcome any form of elemental protections. Beholders? Fail your check = insta-gib. Why? Because they're special too. Cure Poison shouldn't work on any Demon poisons, either, because those from the Outer Planes just like a Pegasus is. It just doesn't make sense when you really look at it in perspective.

I doubt anyone's ever claimed Paladins don't put in a lot of time for what they get, so that's a huge strawman argument, but is that really a good reason to make them exceptions to basic rules of the game? Well, I have a ton of hours on my crafter, too. He should get to craft magic weapons and armor.

In the end, my point is that something works as it shouldn't. I'm siding with Alitar in that mind-shielded people shouldn't provoke a response as all these NPCs have is detection spells. And, while I'm on the subject, Mind Blank should provide a protection vs Paladin mounts "shying" too.

[Tarven]

Selveem, I can agree with most of what you're saying, on some level. Though as has been pointed out many times to me, we're not slaves to canon.

However, the Mind Blank thing? That makes -no- sense to me. The spell is used to stop controlling effects, not detecting ones. Detect evil is described in canon as a radiating aura. Think of it as a stain on your soul.

[Selveem]

However, the Mind Blank thing? That makes -no- sense to me. The spell is used to stop controlling effects, not detecting ones. Detect evil is described in canon as a radiating aura. Think of it as a stain on your soul.

Mind blank is a great spell. It's not just protection vs control, but _also_ detection ones. If you read what the spell does, it specifically states that. There's a reason why Mind Blank is an 8th level spell. It's supposed to be strong.

The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject's mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn't detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.

Detect Evil is an "information gathering" divination spell. It is not useful vs Mind Blank. In the same way that Arcane Eye simply cannot see someone affected by Mind Blank spell, Detect Evil or Know Alignment spells will fail.