Sneak

Natasha · Post by **Natasha** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:16 am

I just had a question for certain abilities of Thieves.

I was wondering if the Sneak skill is considered a supernatural ability, rather than a normal skill? Often times I find my characters conversing with someone who has either been hiding and/or sneaking, only to have me press the ENTER key on my next 'sayto' to get the response "They aren't here." on my screen.

I feel that when people use sneak in this way, that they are trying to make it seem like in movies, where someone is talking to someone and suddenly the person is gone when they turn around. On one hand, this is part of someone's RP, and I understand that. On the other hand, you are not going to sneak away without the person noticing if they are staring directly at you.

I would like to see feedback from others on this topic, as I feel that it is very poor RP for someone to leave a room in the middle of RP using sneak. I feel that just because the code lets them do it without being detected, doesn't mean that realistically they can leave without being noticed -- it is much like hiding right after someone looks at you.

Natasha

Lerytha · Post by **Lerytha** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 2:32 pm

I have seen many instances of this, most of which have been RPed out very well. For instance, a ranger friend of my character's often leaves using sneak, but that is usually preceded by a brief smote saying how the ranger "leaves quickly" or something.

If ever I use sneak, I would tend to use an smote to explain that "while <x> surveys him, Steve steps back to be surrounded by a large crowd, and within moments, is lost"

(I have just realised that sounds sort of like controlling other people around you, but I hope the point is made, despite that).

Another element to take into consideration is that (I might have missed it) there is no way to see if you are sneaking or not. Quite a lot of the time, I might have typed sneak, and I am unsure how long it lasts after the original usage of it... therefore, it could be a simple mistake on the part of the player.

So... (get to the point, I hear you say) I would say it really depends on the RP and what is happening. If it is a full-on PKill RP, then suddenly dissappearing is not practical. Perhaps if someone is having such an RP, a polite Otell to request "permission" to sneak off might be acceptable? (that is just a suggestion, however). If you are just having a casual conversation, then maybe attitudes towards sneaking away can be relaxed. And also, maybe if in an smote you say "<x> glances towards the exit for a moment before saying..." the other person can reply with an smote saying "while <x>'s attention is turned away, he melts into the crowd"... or something.

There was a point to all this... which I have momentarily forgotten. I think it was something to do with the usage of sneak being different depending on the RP (as mentioned above) and that if there are any concerns, maybe usage of OTELL, (now that adjective-focused tells work) or if you get no reply, maybe a gentle usage of QUESTION?

Just a few thoughts.

Mele · Post by **Mele** » Tue Dec 28, 2004 2:38 pm

Sneak is not superuberskill. It's just something the very dexterious classes and races are capable of doing.

If you are holding a conversation with someone and they're gone, in my opinion, they missed a well deserved smote before they snuck off.

I think if you're slipping off flat out mid conversation that the other person deserves atleast a "smote slips off quietly" or something.

My opinion!
~Danica

Elwin · Post by **Elwin** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 12:05 am

I agree with Mele on this one. It is really poor RP to just sneak off in the middle of a conversation. With my ranger, if I do sneak off with another person there, I will usually either smote "slipping off" or wait for something else to happen, like them talking to someone else, then sneaking off.

Tychina · Post by **Tychina** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:28 pm

*steps into the shadows and slips away* I have seen, and used, that one on occasion, when I wanted to get away from someone who I was talking to, for whatever reason, and felt it would be better then doing the whole farewell scene.

That I know of, there is no way to tell if you are still snekaing. BUT, it is a simple thing, to type vis, if you are unsure. The problem is in the remembering. And I have been guilty of forgetting many a time to type vis after I was sneaking about. In that case, if you think you can do it within the rp, ask your companion if they have a reason for sneaking around, I've had a few ask me that. If you feel you cannot ask that within the rp, then osay and ask if they meant to be sneaking, as quite often we merely forget we were doing it ooc'ly.

Rhytania · Post by **Rhytania** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 4:52 pm

Maybe this could be a good time for suggesting if there could be a way the game will reflect we are hidden or sneaking. Maybe in the affects section or in the score sheet like poses do. I too have run into that problem where i used sneak like 10 mins before and forgot i was sneaking.

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:38 pm

The only problem with something like that is it would also tell you when you are NOT sneaking. That defeats the concept that you can try to sneak but do not know how successful you are being. You might THINK you are sneaking when in fact others hear/see you come in just fine. If there were an affect for it, you could check to see it that way rather than be surprised when someone rats you out.

Exer · Post by **Exer** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:04 pm

An simple idea would be to have a smote generated automatically when someone uses the sneak skill.

eg:
Joe -> sneak
Joe moves into the shadows

It wont tell you if you're successful but will let others know that you're gone or that you tried to hide.

Currently if someone fails a sneak, there is no way of telling that they were trying it. My thoughts would be that it would be suspicious if the person you are talking to, is now hiding behind the bushes yet you can still see them (since they failed their sneak roll)

Tychina · Post by **Tychina** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:10 am

yes Exer, but at the same time, if you fail, and everyone knows you tried, they will be looking at you, so you would obviously know you failed. And so then we should see it too. But I don't think they want us to know when we fail?

Natasha · Post by **Natasha** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 12:50 am

Not to be a twit, but my original intent of this thread was to look at the RP implications of sneaking away without RPing it, as well while in plain sight, etc.

Natasha

Kirkus · Post by **Kirkus** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 5:36 am

You are missing one point that I believe needs to be brought up. If you are speaking to someone who is hidden you DO NOT KNOW where they are. In other words if you are having a conversation with someone who is hidden then you don't know where they are and you are just talking to an assumed place or the area where you thing the person is.

Here is a real life application that can prove what I mean and show how this is not a supernatural skill. On the campus where I go to school there are multiple sets of collumns, outside the gym where the volleyball team plays, outside the track outside the football stadium, and even on some of our buildings. Lets say I have some roguish thing I got to do, blackmail we'll say. So I leave a not for Bob and it says 'Hey Bob meet me at the collumns of CBA ( a well known building on campus) or I go the the school paper with this info I know and bring some cash.' So Bob shows up and I hide behind one of the collumns and something like 'Hey Bob, you got the money?' Now Bob is going to try and find me but I am hidden and going to slide arround to the other side of the collumn. So this goes on for a while while we are working out the agreement. I am slipping from one collumn to another and Bob is trying to get a good look but I am sneaky sneaky and he fails. So we finish up the deal and I grab the money and sneak out behind the bushes.

See that is quite believable. And to answer your question as to rp implications, here is how I see it. It is going to depend on the person sneaking and the situation. If the character dosn't want to be seen when they leave, then by all means slip out without telling anybody that is what the skill is for. They are hidding..... ie, not in plain sight.

Ciele · Post by **Ciele** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:58 am

There's a difference between being hidden for the whole conversation, like in your example, than suddenly vanishing into thin air half-way through. If you were talking to Bob and then, for whatever reason, suddenly decided to hide, he'd see you slipping behind the column and think you were a complete prat, and probably follow you round to see what you were up to. I think it really does need an explanatory smote, there's got to at least be something to distract Bob while you pull your disappearing act.

Rotha · Post by **Rotha** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 4:25 pm

I think the sneak skill implies that you are doing some sort of misleading and deception in order to get into the shadows. You don't just turn around and walk behind a bush... The skill assumes you're diverting attention, so that you can slip off before they even realize that you've gone. Now, just because the skill assumes that, doesn't mean that you should just disappear... I think it's just a matter of courtesty. When you're RPing with someone, you feel a bit miffed if they just disappear out of nowhere. I think maybe you owe them an emote or two of explanation (plus, it's fun to do those kind of emotes anyway)

Lathander wrote:The only problem with something like that is it would also tell you when you are NOT sneaking. That defeats the concept that you can try to sneak but do not know how successful you are being. You might THINK you are sneaking when in fact others hear/see you come in just fine. If there were an affect for it, you could check to see it that way rather than be surprised when someone rats you out.

Maybe the affect could show you as attempting to sneak, whether or not you actually are? I don't think it makes much sense for sneak to be something you type and then it lasts a random amount of time. To me it would make more sense if sneak was a walking speed kinda, like "speed sneak" and then instead of walking you'd be sneaking (supposedly). Anyone could try to do it, but if you don't have the skill everyone would just see you "sneaking" from room to room and laugh at you. I don't know if having sneak as a speed would work code-wise, but it just seems to me like it should be a mode that can be on or off, rather than a skill. The mode wouldn't imply that you were being successful, just that you're trying.

Natasha · Post by **Natasha** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:06 pm

The situations I was referring to, Kirkus, were situations where they were hiding, but I still could see them. AKA, would it be considered better ettiquette not to just walk off right after you see the echo "Playername looks at you."

Natasha

Exer · Post by **Exer** » Thu Jan 13, 2005 9:51 pm

Well the thing is that sneak combines both 'hide in shadows' and 'move silently'. You generally can't hide in shadows when it's bright outside and you are talking to someone. It would be an insane roll to get out of there without the person seeing you do it (as per ad&d rules and real life for that matter).

So I would suggest to do an smote and do it if the situation makes sense.
I'm talking about ppl going 'poof' in front of you while in the middle of a conversation. Poor RP I think otherwise.

Alaudrien · Post by **Alaudrien** » Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:52 pm

hrm thinking of this. Someone sneaking and hideing tlaking could eventually make it to where you are seen even if you are reallly sneaky. And well just disappearing is kinda bleh. I have done it on a couple occasions without even realizing it. But I was also thinking...if your sneaking and or hideing does it show the person someone is looking at you or so and so looked at you. In other places if a person was sneaking or hideing you couldn't see them do it since they where either getting a quick peek or distracting you enough to get a good look over you. and something slightly off topic...but ventriloquism wouldn't a good thief learn to do this? (not the magical spell but actually throwing there voice) so if they are hidden they can make it sound like it comes from a different place so they can remain hidden?