Dual Backstab

[Zilvryn]

My CG ranger would have no problems with a thief stealing something that was for the greater good...

In an ideal world (if there is a thief on that gets on with whatever char I am playing at the time), I would always have a thief along on an adventure, just because, they can fight pretty well, they have unique skills that no-other char has...

Basically, I feel that thieves make valuable companions with their current skillset, I`m not sure they need to be changed..

If thieves are not getting included in adventures/RP it is not generally the thieves fault, its just the people who are leading the adventure do not feel comfortable with the thieves.

Saying that, my perspective could be tinted by the fact that all of my chars are either evil or at the very chaotic end of the alignment spectrum.. so I really don`t know how I LG char would react to the idea of stealing for the greater good..

Sorry if this post is a little confusing, my thoughts are tinted by beer and its late

Just my thoughts..

E

[Argentia]

Well, that's all well and good, but this isn't the issue we're trying to address.

I think you're missing my point here... I was trying to give ideas to help thieves become grouped. Like I said, people tend to like an interesting and unique character more and want to be around them. The same goes for every class.

We're not looking for new character ideas for thieves, we're looking for something that a thief can do to contribute to a group on a regular basis, apart from a glib tongue and a tendency to require healing.

How about contributing good RP? I have been in a group before, where the leader was someone who was not adverse to thieves, and asked thief Joe to come along. My character, being a lawful and vigilant character, was wary of Joe and good RP came from this.

Either way, out of the times I have been grouped with a thief, only once did the thief that came along die, and that was because he was in way over his head level-wise and there was a bug that caused the mobs in the room to multiply to a ridiculous number. Not even a hardened fighter would have survived it. To me, the thief class seems fine in battle.

Although I do see a "flanking" idea making sense. With distractions from a fighter's sword, a wizard's magic missile, a priest's touch attack, ect., I could see this giving the thief ample time to sneak around back of the enemy and jam something sharp into its back. Granted, of course, that the thief stopped attacking for a few rounds.

[Mele]

If your LAWFUL character has a problem with a thief this does NOT mean thieves cannot contribute to "good" rp without someone being weary of them. NOT ALL CHARACTERS ARE LAWFUL. This seems to keep coming up. There are EVILS who LOVE that stuff, stealing picking locks. There are CG's who love to just be devious but not push the line of hurtful. Thieves do not have to play a specific way to be of "good" rp stature. This is -not about- alignment. Alignment has nothing to do with the grouping process as EVERY alignment makes groups and EVERY alignment RP's.

Danica

[Balek]

How about contributing good RP?

In essence, you're saying that classes except thieves should have something useful to do in a group battle, but thieves should contribute only through their personality? I fail to see the logic behind this statement. I agree that everyone should contribute good RP, but frankly I don't see why you're resisting the idea of a thief having some meaningful part in a group. Thus far you've managed to indicate nothing at all that a thief can contribute to a group apart from quality RP.

Granted, of course, that the thief stopped attacking for a few rounds.

This was included in the original write-up, posted above.

[Argentia]

If your LAWFUL character has a problem with a thief this does NOT mean thieves cannot contribute to "good" rp without someone being weary of them

That's NOT what I was saying at all. My point was that thieves can provide good RP even with people who do not normally tolerate them.

I agree that everyone should contribute good RP, but frankly I don't see why you're resisting the idea of a thief having some meaningful part in a group

RP isn't meaningful...??

It seems my point continually evades everyone. If this is the case, then most likely the problem lies with me, and I won't continue with my opinion.

[Balek]

RP isn't meaningful...??

As I said before, everyone should contribute RP to a group. Let's look at it this way. Mages contribute RP and spells. Priests contribute RP and healing. Fighters contribute RP and a large imposing person to hide behind. Thieves contribute RP and...what exactly?

[Argentia]

Thieves provide good RP, and make for a good...
scout/backstabber/sneaker/detrapper/lock picker.

How's that?

[Gwain]

In the end it is up to personal taste, preference and attitude in a char's soul, heart and mind if they want to knowingly deal with a thief. Some do, some don't. Some will deal with one type while others will not, some hate everyone and only deal with thieves, some love everyone and hate thieves, some hate thieves but love choclate. In the end it's personal preference. In regards to power, I feel that while stat power is good because in most situations it let's you back up your words, but there are other shades to power...the weakest thief is still strong if he has the power to fight fearlessly or wisely and build up over an incredibly long period of time power. There is that fear of being destroyed or impotent, but it's just a game. Have fun, frolic and enjoy an rp. If you are frustrated by losing or being shunned, know that it can happen. Just hold your nose high and expect what can happen and try your best to put forth a good rp.

But once again, this skill seems interesting. the use of two daggers would be a smashing success and brutalize enemies silently and wonderfully. But, I think it could do with causing a great deal of exersion on the char. I mean would not your wrists start to buckle from the applid pressure of two daggers being used to stab behind in a precise location? Imagine a thief with repetitive strains in his wrists!
Just my thoughts.

[Argentia]

I believe that's called carpel tunnel syndrome. Ouch! It's the same thing in swordplay. If you repeatedly strike the same area in a precise spot, your wrists start to feel it after a while. It's not fun.

[Cyric]

So wait.... Let me get this straight:

You do not group with thieves for their chaotic actions (such as stealing)

Yet, you are denying them any option to further their roleplay into combat?

I don't understand why you say that a thieves "groupability" is fine but the reason you don't group with them is because they are dishonest and steal. So... How about giving them more than just the ability to pick locks and steal from people? And yet you are against this option?


Thieves RP:
Scout - A Ranger can do better, and has cureative spells to help sustain himself, takes more damage, has an extra attack
Backstabber - 1nce per fight, provided the thief has initiative
Sneaker - See "Scout"
Detrapper - How many times have you walked through a trap? How many traps do something that a priest can't heal?
Lock Picker - Bash / Knock / Find key / etc.

I don't want a thief to be essential to a party, but I would like to see them used more often, instead of skills such as pick lock. Would you party with a theif that didn't pick doors, abhored the idea of stealing, but found an oponent's weaknesses easily?

[Ellian]

Would you party with a theif that didn't pick doors, abhored the idea of stealing, but found an oponent's weaknesses easily?

I'd definitely party with that kind of thief. Sounds like a real party animal, the kind of thief that really knows how to 'get down with his bad self.'


-El-

[Argentia]

So... How about giving them more than just the ability to pick locks and steal from people? And yet you are against this option?

No, I think the idea of the improved backstab/circlestab/whatever is a great idea and makes sense. But I still think that dual backstab would be best kept for a prestige class. I also think the thief class is fight-capable already. But that is just my opinion.

You do not group with thieves for their chaotic actions (such as stealing)

I am merely stating my observations about how I have seen thieves... Not cover the fact that they are thieves. If you watch enough Law & Order you know any self-respecting thief denies his actions.

Scout - A Ranger can do better, and has cureative spells to help sustain himself, takes more damage, has an extra attack

Many people(Like evils) are not on good terms with the forest. I know many rangers(In fact, most or all rangers) who would rather die than act as a scout for certain evils.

Detrapper - How many times have you walked through a trap?

A lot.

How many traps do something that a priest can't heal?

Not many. But why take the damage when you can prevent it? ICly, wouldn't you want someone to disarm that trap rather than just step through it without a thought, even though you know a priest is there to heal you?

[Nysan]

*scratches his head in confusion at the direction of this post*

Lets see...
Duel back-stab: No. Improving backstab/circle to be more useful in fighting: Yes.
Do not group or travel with thieves because they are thieves: No. (Many books and stories mention heroic parties including thieves. Case in point, Avatar Series. Yeah sure Cyric flipped out in the second book and went evil, but he was a known thief and helpful part of the group in the first book.)

Thieves are useful, thieves are needed at times. Yes, some thieves are evil. Steal from anyone, slit their throat, ect. But that is SOME. I can name some wizards and fighters who do not exactly have a tarnish free record, but we don't label all their class because of it. The friendly thief who unlocks the door to the lich's lair. The one that find the hidden door. The one that disarms the trap that was about to take your head off. They have their uses.
Just because they can steal, doesn't mean they do. A fighter can chop your head off also, doesn't mean he/she does. A wizard can brighten your day with a fireball up your back side, doesn't mean he/she does.
To each their own. Its your character, its your rp. But to close yourself off from an entire group of characters takes some of YOUR fun away as well as theirs. Just a thought....

N.R.

[Ursan]

Like many others, I suspect, I've been following this thread with some interest over the last week or so.

What started out as a pondering over an uber-skill has managed to go right out to character morality and back again with a side-trip into game mechanics and the way class skills are balanced.

I shan't get into my own opinions on this, but I would like to mention something that has failed to come up in three pages of posts...

Use Magic Device...

Maybe having this skill makes up for some of the other perceived lack?

Now, before everyone wags a finger and shouts 'ah-hah, but...!' in their best Perry Mason voice, I know that it isnt working at the moment. Perhaps this should be looked at before new skills are added.

It would, if working, allow a thief to.... heal like a ranger or priest and hurl fireballs and such like a wizard. Okay, so potions cover a broad area right now.. but there is still room for the thieves use of magic. A magic that doesnt require meditation to recharge or memorisation to use.

More importantly to my mind, it would give thieves a much broader scope for interacting with clerics and wizards.. since this would be their source of scrolls and/or magic devices.

[Ciele]

You're dead right about this thread being watched, just look at the number of views...

I think it was Argentia who first brought up the 'not wanting to group with thieves on account of their morals being questionable' thing, but it seems to have veered off in a different direction to what she intended. She wasn't saying that's another reason no one wants to group with thieves, she was saying that in her opinion that was the main reason no one wants to group with thieves. They aren't completely useless in battle and granted, while they may not have something that's unique and sets them apart from everyone else, I wouldn't object to having a thief along on the basis that they're 'useless'. Thieves that make it obvious that they're of a less-than-good orientation obviously preclude themselves from a fair few RPs with goods, just like other evils do.

On the other hand, completely ignoring the question of morals... Say you've got a group of three: a fighter for dealing and taking damage, a mage for spells, a priest for healing. While stat-wise it may be a well-rounded group, in actuality it's lacking vital components. Obviously, I'm generalising here, but there's a certain raffish charm to a thief that no one else has. People, after all, still choose to play thieves, and still do choose to group with them. They've got a reputation for sharp thinking, which might be useful if you've got a dumb fighter and a mage and priest with their heads stuck in the arcane/divine clouds. They are sneaky and devious, can get into places others can't and are always alert. True, there are others who can do everything they can do, but there's no one class that has all their skills, and definitely no class that has the same wise-cracking, roguish reputation. What's the problem with not having one individual talent to offer to combat? Granted, it'd be nice, and I think the circlestab idea is a good one, but everything isn't about combat. In real life, if you're picking a group to work with in school, or work, or sport, there are two considerations - do you have the right skills, attributes and feats for this job? and do I enjoy working with you? In my experience, people are more likely to choose someone who doesn't fit the first question but does fit the second than the other way round. And, of course, as I said before, it's not that the thief is completely useless in combat, he just lacks a USP, a unique selling point.

[Timaeus]

A big problem with Circle Stab and Backstab is that both require the thief to have the initiative, the thief has to attack the target first in both instances. While this makes sense with backstab the code recognizes backstab and circle stab as the same attack and there are limits to only one attempt at either attack per fight whether or not it is a successful attack or not. If a character walks into a room with an agressive mob there is no initiative, the mob automatically gains the initiative which is not very realistic in a game sense. No feats counter this occurence either.

Backstab - Allowed one attempt per fight and only when the character attacks first.

Circle Stab - Allowed one success per fight and not limited to when the thief has attacked the target creature first.

Enhanced Damage - This skill should be removed from the warrior guild skill lists. There is no equivalent to free damage bonus in the tabletop games, the warrior guild extra attacks provide enough extra damage over a thief/rogue already without the additions from enhanced damage.

[Argentia]

Nysan, Ciele, you summed up my incoherant and scattered thoughts nicely.

As for enhanced damage, I can see your point, but think that its discussion about fighters would best be left out of this post and kept for another. But, I am puzzled as to why thieves don't get this skill? They should already know pressure points/vital areas if they know specifically where to stab their knife in a sneak attack. It would make sense they could do it in outright battle, too. In fact, I thought thieves already had this skill until I checked the guild page, because I recall a conversation about the skill with a thief with reference to "pressure points and their applications."

Maybe enhanced damage is that power thief players miss so much.

Ursan, I didn't know use magic device was broken/not in the game. I think you are completely right that this should be dealt with before anything else. I can't tell you how many times my fighter has wanted to read scrolls! ::sob sob::

[Timaeus]

Now, as far as the roleplaying aspects of playing a thief, I play one of the GOOD aligned thieves who has never stolen from a non-evil creature, he does and will steal from goblins orcs and other assorted evil doers and is still GOOD as he is combatting evil by removing their resources to fuel their war machines and armies/lackies. Even then he does not go off stealing in the presence of others since that pretty much makes no IC sense. Hide and then use stealth to lift the coin purses off the unwary evil doers. Not bringing 4-5 people clanging and banging through a corridor and then go steal their money pouches after walking in on them. With a generally good-natured and laid back personality in the hours I have on my thief he has never been invited to group with anyone for an adventure where there was not a known locked door that would have to be overcome. His grouping has been more or less limited to him tagging along on his own or simply forcing his presence on a group. Granted my thief (Sylvester) is one of the more combat worthy ones out there because I took the time and effort to get him that way. Yet even with his known ability to fight people do not try to group with him unless they need a lock opened. As far as the detrapping no one lets a trap stand in their way, they will just plow through it and let priests deal with the effects. Most parties do not even bother to look for traps in the first place, perhaps if there were some instant death traps then more people would look to a thief to help scout and guide a group through a dangerous dungeon.

[Balek]

there's a certain raffish charm to a thief that no one else has.

I see. Essentially we've gone from advocating that everyone make exceptionally creative thieves to advocating that everyone make thieves who act essentially the same.

In the posts I've read, there doesn't seem to be anyone who really disagrees that thieves have nothing to set them apart in combat (except Ursan, but I'll get to that in a moment). I fail to see why, in the absence of any sort of actual rebuttal, there is such resistance to the combat skills of a thief being upgraded slightly. Essentially you're saying that you're fine with wizards, priests and fighters having unique skills that are in demand, but thieves should rely only on their personality and wit. OF course, if a thief decides to play a thief that is not witty or personable (a more unique thief?) they are totally out of luck.

Now, as for Use Magic Device. Ursan brings up an excellent point here, but ultimately I don't think Use Magic Device is the final balance for thieves. Yes, thieves can carry scrolls to use in a variety of situations, but they're limited quite a bit by the number and variety of scrolls they're carrying. Essentially, the thief is limited to using magic in a select variety of specific situations in which the scrolls he is carrying are useful.

Besides all of that, Use Magic Device is essentially aping the spells that mages and priests have. While it's nice to have someone who can do that in the group, it's going to be the same problem with that as it is with a thief's combat abilities vs. a fighter's combat abilities. No one's ever going to look for a thief for his ability to use scrolls.

On a side note, Argentia, I'm sorry to tell you but fighters don't get Use Magic Device. Only Rogues get it.

[Argentia]

I fail to see why, in the absence of any sort of actual rebuttal, there is such resistance to the combat skills of a thief being upgraded slightly

You're not listening. Many of us agree that upgrading backstab/circle stab is a good idea. I even suggested giving enhanced damage to thieves. I don't understand why you insist on arguing when we seem to have settled on the fact that thieves could use a little boost.

As for use magic device, I think this is an enormous benefit. Why complain about the "limited" spells you can have when you can essentially put any spell into a scroll? Not to mention the fact that with this skill, the thief class now essentially has a little bit of every class in it. (Sneaking like a ranger, using spells/prayers like a priest and wizard, dishing out dmg like a fighter with backstab, not to mention the already unique thief skills they have)

Essentially, the thief is limited to using magic in a select variety of specific situations in which the scrolls he is carrying are useful

So is a wizard. They must meditate and rememorize spells and sometimes, it is not IC to do this so they must wait until they can refresh their spells in an appropriate place. A thief can idealy carry a scroll of every spell, and thus be prepared for many situations. But I find that wizards really only use a set number of spells the most, such as buffs, magic missile, ect. It would make sense to carry more of those scrolls.

On a side note, Argentia, I'm sorry to tell you but fighters don't get Use Magic Device. Only Rogues get it.

I know, that's why I was sad.

Personally, I see the thief class fine as is. But since so many others disagree, and since I do not actually play a thief class, benefits should be in order. All in all, I think...

Use Magic Device: Yes
Improve circle stab: Yes
Dual backstab: Only for the worthy
Enhanced damage: Yes