Weapon Specialization and GM Skills

Glim · Post by **Glim** » Mon May 23, 2005 1:25 am

Im writing this during the fighters tourney and talking with alot of fighters, I know a few of them have GMed all of their weapon skills and many have GMed more than one. Now, thinking about this, it does kind of make someone who focuses totally on one weapon a bit unfair, so I was thinking this.

Could there perhaps be a way to code one or two levels past GM for skills? This is where weapon specialization would come in, you have to take the feat for a single weapons group and in that group you can train it past GM, but all other skills you have not taken the feat in can only be trained to GM. This would allow character, for example lets say an archer, to be better than all of those fighters out there who focus on every weapon. It would be perhaps akin to a mage specializing in a guild, except for a fighter.

Questions, Comments? I really like this idea and would like any feedback you can give.

Lysha · Post by **Lysha** » Mon May 23, 2005 1:42 am

The next level up could be Legendary! That sounds nice!

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Mon May 23, 2005 4:50 am

There is the Weapon Focus feat, which is similar to what you're saying, of course, finding a trainer for the weapon of your choice? Maybe a little daunting.

Algon · Post by **Algon** » Mon May 23, 2005 3:12 pm

Prehaps this could be like a prestige class or something...to where you can choose say two weapons to become legendary in....
I am not really sure how the prestige thing works, but it sounds good to me lol

Isolrem · Post by **Isolrem** » Mon May 23, 2005 10:46 pm

Legendary sounds like something you could have application for and solid RP to base upon.
As for feats such as weapon focus or spell focus, the whole point is to give you something you could attain without the feat point by spending some time. They are feats for lazy people or those without that much game time.

I find people who specialize in just one weapon stylish, and the style can be just easily RPed

Isorelm Vallar - Sword Saint

Telk · Post by **Telk** » Tue May 24, 2005 12:36 am

I like the idea, a lot. It would make perfect sense for somebody who uses a weapon all the time to be better then somebody who uses it for a while to GM it then moves on. However I wouldn't like to see somebody who just GMed the weapon just go get the feat when they haven't spent as much time with it as other PC's. Perhaps this could be applied for, and cost kismet as well as having to find a trainer? I was thinking a trainer that only trained those who are elegible for it (have a imm set it or something similar once the application is approved)

I also think that it should be limited to maybe 1-2 weapons.

Hviti · Post by **Hviti** » Tue May 24, 2005 4:47 pm

I think it should be 1 weapon if at all, because if it is 2 then even more people will dual wield + this instead of shield/sword.

Maybe it could be available for one weapon and shieldwork to balance the two styles more.

(I admit that my char does dual wield)

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Tue May 24, 2005 5:12 pm

Why not limit all weapon skills to expert and allow only 1 or perhaps 2 weapon skills to reach Grandmaster, skills that the character would have to choose?

Tretch · Post by **Tretch** » Tue May 24, 2005 5:54 pm

That is a much better idea Dalvyn. I support it entirely.

Tretch

Algon · Post by **Algon** » Tue May 24, 2005 6:01 pm

What would you do with the people that already have like 10 weapon classes GM? Drop them all back down to Expert and then let them decide what to do from there?

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Tue May 24, 2005 6:08 pm

I see no problem with the fact that your knowledge in a skill is finite. If you learn a language, for example, and you learn all the nuances, the dialect, you speak fluently with all the finesse of a native of that language, how do you get better at it?

If you perfect all the weapon technique and martial skill of a weapon, what more is there to learn? You can develop skills peripheral to the base skill further, become quicker with it (multiple attacks skill), more agile with it (dex), even train to hit harder (str), but the weapon skill is the same.

There are ways to improve yourself as a fighter, without recoding things to make them higher.

We have a thread with people asking to add more levels, because so many people are level 50, and someone wants to be higher.

We have this thread, because too many people are GMing their weapons, and someone wants to be better.

We have threads on pushing the finite limits of the game code further and further, simply because someone's idea of too many people have reached that point.

The first thing that pops to mind is.. Gee... if a bunch of chars hadn't spent nonstop hours quest sweeping, power levelling, and living as Hartsvale hermits sustaining on nothing but mnemonic enhancer potions, they wouldn't have reached the ceilings so quick. And now we have the top levels as the lowest common denominator. This would be the sad consequence to en masse power levelling, suddenly the top of the heap isn't such a remarkable thing anymore.

And I am obviously not the only one who notes that. I think it spoke volumes at the fighter tourney, that there were enough twinked up fighters in attendance, that the imms in charge called everyone's attention to it, and force loaded the help twink file to everyone.

I would stand more on the grounds of somehow slowing down the twinkability of a new char, before I would advocate pushing the max. Because sad thing is, you push the max, then people will twink up to that point as well.

And yet....

We will note that not a single twinked up newbie fighter won one of the regional contests and thus not the final hero tournament. There are many MANY more factors in a long-term character's development than just their level and their weapon skill.

Balek · Post by **Balek** » Tue May 24, 2005 9:05 pm

I agree with Dalvyn's post, I think that limiting most weapon skills to expert except maybe 2-3 that the player chooses to take to grandmaster.

As for Kregor's post, I think it would be good to do one of several things with experience in the game. The first possibility is to drastically increase the amount of experience required for each level. Not double it, not triple it...apply some very large multiplier so that levels take much longer to gain. I've played some World of Warcraft and it's taken me quite a long time spent doing little apart from leveling to get to level 23. I don't think it should even be possible to get to level 50 in less than 100 hours.

Second, when a player gains level 10, and levels 40-50, the game "destroys" any extra experience the character has. Perhaps we could impliment that for each level, instead of just those few.

Just throwing some ideas out there.

Glim · Post by **Glim** » Tue May 24, 2005 11:25 pm

Kregor, as with most things in real life, you will never truly stop learning any skill there is always something more to learn, but in FK, there is a cap. Im merely proposing the ability of those who focus totally on one weapon be able to be better than those who train with all weapons. Using the same example, archery, It just doesnt seem right that a fighter who has GMed everything would shoot better or the same than a fighter who has trained all his life with a bow and that is the only weapon he focuses on. The same can be said of any weapon, really.

As to Dalvyn's post, that would be a fine alternative and perhaps a better one, I said raise it past grandmaster because of all the people already at that skill level and thought that if they set the cap down to expert, then those who are already at GM with every weapon would have an unfair advantage over newer characters whose skills can only reach expert without the feat.

Hviti, shieldwork is classified as a weapons skill as far as I know, so I beleive it would apply the same as any other.

I also agree that it would have to be limited to a max of two weapon skills.

Isolrem · Post by **Isolrem** » Tue May 24, 2005 11:56 pm

Still, having multiple weapons at GM only means the player has dedicated so much time and attention to each of those weapons. Should it be fair that a player who haven't spent that time and attention be allowed other advantages?

Hviti · Post by **Hviti** » Wed May 25, 2005 12:58 am

Yeah shieldwork is classified as a weapon skill, but if everyone has two choices, they will all put the two on different weapons and dual wield instead of one on a weapon and one on shieldwork...unless they really like shields or rp with them. Whereas if one could be only for shieldwork, then people would not be able to get two uber weapons and would be forced to use a shield if they wanted two special uses of this feat (thereby moving away from the cookie cutter two sword fighter).

Glim · Post by **Glim** » Wed May 25, 2005 1:02 am

Perhaps, but I dont think one of the two should have to be put into shieldwork, it should really be up to the player and if it fits their RP.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Wed May 25, 2005 1:45 am

Isolrem wrote:Still, having multiple weapons at GM only means the player has dedicated so much time and attention to each of those weapons. Should it be fair that a player who haven't spent that time and attention be allowed other advantages?

That's a good question, that I'll answer with another question.

Should those who spend more time mindlessly bashing mobs and typing the same command again and again be given an advantage over those who don't have the time (or the inclination) do do that in a roleplay mud? Should those who spend most of their time roleplaying (instead of mindlessly bashing mobs and typing the same command again and again) be penalized because of that?

It's a bit like pitting the following two alternatives against each other (when playing say, a fighter, and assuming you can spend only a limited time online):

Option 1 - I spend my online time roleplaying with others, perhaps making quests in groups (which obviously takes more time than doing them solo) and roleplay that I am training during my off time.

Option 2 - I spend most of my time online training and bashing mobs, most often on my own because I hate it when I have to wait for other characters to meditate, and I don't need them anyway because the mobs can't harm me that much and I don't need healing nor help, and when I am alone, I don't have to waste time talking/roleplaying and can concentrate on bashing while surfing the net or sharing IC information on the chat. I just take a few seconds to buy potions of mnemonic enhancer and bulls strength because I train way faster with 'em then I go and smash ogres and giants again and again.

My opinion would be: You have more time to train up more skills? Fine. But that shouldn't give you any advantage over those who have more limited time or choose to spend their time doing other things than mindlessly bashing mobs. At least, I don't think that you can raise the issue that "They spent a lot of time on it, they deserve to have many GMed skills" in a roleplay mud.

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Wed May 25, 2005 1:52 am

Well... I stand by my original post on the matter: You want to say you're a specialist in a weapon, that's what the weapon focus feat is for. Taking the feat for a specific weapon class means that you have put a focus on that weapon group. And the +1 hit/dam afforded by it seems to reflect that (I am assuming the FK coded bonus is the same??). I can't see that another rank in the skill levels would add any more than that.

Now, you have to find a trainer who trains focus in that weapon group (sometimes difficult) and spend a feat point (finite). So you have both effort and limitation built in by relying on the existing feat.

Mind you, many of our 50th level chars (mine included) have used up all our feat points... but that's what the gods made glory for

and if you are short on glory, then you have to work to earn more, by RP, taking part in quests, etc. And there you have it, you have put time and RP into making that weapon your specialization once you earn the glory for your new feat point.

I don't see why we need additional coding effort for another wheel, other than just for the bragging right to say you are "legendary" in your weapon. Perhaps the only effort we need with weapon focus is some more focus trainers in more exotic weaponry getting scattered about in new areas as they are built.

Glim · Post by **Glim** » Wed May 25, 2005 2:15 am

Weapon proficiency would seem to me to be like a step above weapon focus, weapon focus ussually something you take in the beginning to give you a little bit of a bonus with your added weapon, weapon proficiency would indicate a reliance and devotion to a weapon above the weapon focus feat.

Perhaps that would also be a good thing to have, you must have weapon focus to take the feat weapon proficiency? Though Im not sure if it can be coded they both must be taken in the same weapon, or even possible with the limited amount of trainers in the game for weapon focus, perhaps the only way to make it a prerequisite would be you merely had to have trained weapon focus once to take weapon proficiency?

Also, as to used up feat points, I beleive Sharni or Dalvyns thread about disadvantages and taking one to give yourself a feat point would be a good solution to that.

Exer · Post by **Exer** » Wed May 25, 2005 7:39 am

The game is fine the way it is. You want to slow things down, then tie the leveling with a kismet cost. It's an easy way to slow things down and control how fast char's max.

I'm on the Kregor side of the fence on that one.

As for the idea of having only 2 GM weapons, though I think it's a good idea, 2 might be a little low on the scale. Would the same apply to mages and their spells?