But I doubt this would move the RP into bar's and inn's anymore than the hunger code does now. Everyone would just stock up on foodage then return to the Market Square, eating when necessary.Improving Game Economy
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Dalvyn
- Sword Grand Master
- Posts: 4708
- Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 9:26 pm
- Location: House of Wonder, Waterdeep
Something I'd like to add, about making platemail and magical (metal) armour damage more often... If that is done (and I still think it is a good idea to do so), it should be made possible to repair them at mobs. Maybe not all repairers, but at least several of them. (Dwarven) smiths are not so common that it is possible to find one to have something repaired.
Also, magical does not mean cannot be damaged, ever. Making a piece of armour or a weapon undamageable is a specific enchantment, that does not comes automatically with any other magical enchantment. That is, you can have a breatplate enchanted to protect you better than normal breastplates but that has no special enchantment not to damage. Objets that have the flag "Magic" in game all have it for a good reason, thus, it would not make them useless just because they start to damage now.
Also, magical does not mean cannot be damaged, ever. Making a piece of armour or a weapon undamageable is a specific enchantment, that does not comes automatically with any other magical enchantment. That is, you can have a breatplate enchanted to protect you better than normal breastplates but that has no special enchantment not to damage. Objets that have the flag "Magic" in game all have it for a good reason, thus, it would not make them useless just because they start to damage now.
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Eamane
I have to say that I agree with the economy idea on the spells. Too often I see people just casting spells for nothing on other people, which is great to help out younger characters or when you bring in a mage for a fighting party or priest, but spells are an advantage to the classes that have them, if they are easily avaliable to all classes as they are now in the game, it kind of gives those without the spells a much higher advantage. The money for spells potions should be increased. IT wasn't but a day ago I saw someone selling potions for 3 platinum. I think the magic shops have set good examples for the prices that these potions should be set at. In the 20 platinum region.
Now as for the armour damage, I do not agree with that. There are many players that do not just fight for money and do not spend it. A lot of people who gain all this money through fighting, are often giving it away to the younger people, and to help newbies of the church and the game to make sure that they get set up alright. When I first started this game, it was very hard to find everything, and know how to gain armour, and I know most of the people who have been rping here a long time can easily pick out someone who is new to the game. Those people we do need to help and point them in the right direction, and give them a few coins to get some decent armour, at least in the realm of the good. I have wizards and fighters and I personally think that armour gets damaged easily enough. Even platemail. Some people can barely afford to have the stuff, and when they get it, it is very expensive to maintain it. IF we were to increase the damaging of weapons and armour, it would only increase the economy of those who can mend such items. I completely agree with Balmek on the spells though, and have seen IMM's speak of possibly making changes because of how easily spells are being made avaliable to the classes without spells.
Now as for the armour damage, I do not agree with that. There are many players that do not just fight for money and do not spend it. A lot of people who gain all this money through fighting, are often giving it away to the younger people, and to help newbies of the church and the game to make sure that they get set up alright. When I first started this game, it was very hard to find everything, and know how to gain armour, and I know most of the people who have been rping here a long time can easily pick out someone who is new to the game. Those people we do need to help and point them in the right direction, and give them a few coins to get some decent armour, at least in the realm of the good. I have wizards and fighters and I personally think that armour gets damaged easily enough. Even platemail. Some people can barely afford to have the stuff, and when they get it, it is very expensive to maintain it. IF we were to increase the damaging of weapons and armour, it would only increase the economy of those who can mend such items. I completely agree with Balmek on the spells though, and have seen IMM's speak of possibly making changes because of how easily spells are being made avaliable to the classes without spells.
There are definite circumstances where removal of auto-healing will cause certain death to a non-priest player, e.g. many of the special roleplays that we have presently to send people to dungeon areas through divine means. Furthermore, it will mean that if a player is unable to find a party, it will be basically impossible to travel anywhere, I don't know what the dwarves of mithral hall, drows in menzo, or players that only play in early morning when there are no one else around are supposed to do. True newbies will definitely be discouraged that a MUD should have removed auto-healing. Lastly, the advantage to priests will make them godly. These are just my personal opinions.
Chars: Aryvael et all.
I'm not sure why this is such a problem. I can see that maybe some armor could damage (as per Dalvyn's post) a little more but honestly, I see nothing wrong with the way things are. Show me one other game where this model isn't used.
Once you reach lvl 50, there really isn't much need for coin unless you're planning on buying a house. So you only have 200 plat. That's more than enough to care of all your needs for a long time. Yes so you can go out and solo an area and make some $$. Well, one option to slow this down (and again, I don't see why) but an option would be to transfer the amount of wealth given per kill from coins to say equipment dropped. Forcing the char to carry the armor/weapon/jewels and go sell them.
This has a few positive things going for it:
-No instant coins, and thus getting instant rich
-Forces the char to carry equip and thus slows down the amount of wealth gain
-Has to travel around to sell the equipment. Which in turn, again slows down the wealth accumulation but also contributes to the overall game economy
Once you reach lvl 50, there really isn't much need for coin unless you're planning on buying a house. So you only have 200 plat. That's more than enough to care of all your needs for a long time. Yes so you can go out and solo an area and make some $$. Well, one option to slow this down (and again, I don't see why) but an option would be to transfer the amount of wealth given per kill from coins to say equipment dropped. Forcing the char to carry the armor/weapon/jewels and go sell them.
This has a few positive things going for it:
-No instant coins, and thus getting instant rich
-Forces the char to carry equip and thus slows down the amount of wealth gain
-Has to travel around to sell the equipment. Which in turn, again slows down the wealth accumulation but also contributes to the overall game economy
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Balek
- Sword Grand Master
- Posts: 465
- Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2003 9:54 pm
- Location: Mithril Hall
- Contact:
I'm going to rewrite some of the things I've written before, clarifying points and changing some things.
I think every game, every virtual world, needs a good model economy. I've played several MUDs in the past where gold was so common that it had no meaning at all. The barter system took over and it really damaged the whole experience of the MUD. That said, I don't believe we're close to having that happen here. The coins on this game have held their value for most people, but for a growing group of high level fighters and priests, money is becoming easier and easier to come by because they make money on everything they kill and have nothing to spend it on except buffs, extra magical equipment, and very rare repairs from acid damage.
The thing about a game economy is that there is not a finite amount of money. Players can all go out and kill things whenever they choose to and make money endlessly. If there were nothing for them to spend money on, they would all have endless amounts of money and it would all be worthless. Thus, it is important for players to have something to spend money on, in fact, it's imporant to have things that players need to spend money on, preferably in a way that makes gaining money similar for all classes.
We all accept that wizards have robes that damage, have components that cost money, have abilities that cost more to train...this is all accepted as the way things are. When a wizard is gaining levels, and even once the wizard is at maximum level, he or she must continue repairing their robes and buying their components.
Warriors spend money as they level up as well. They might spend several hundred platinum coins to buy a suit of good armor. The thing we need to remember is that when you buy expensive platemail, you're paying for the protection, you're not paying for indestructable armor. In my opinion, we should have no indestructable nonmagical armor and only rare indestructable magical armor. Armor that already gets damaged would not be affected by this proposal. It would continue to damage at the same rate. By having this previously indestructable armor damage 1% or 2% of the time no one is going to endure undue hardship. It's unlikely people will even be spending more money than max level wizards do.
My primary goal here is to even up the ability to make money among the classes. Decreasing money made by warrior classes is one part of the equation. The second part of the equation is increasing money made by wizarding classes. The best way I can think of to increase moneymaking for wizards is to somehow make brewing and casting spells on other people into a more profitable endeavor. We have recognized in the past that many fighters get spells cast on them by friends for little to no money. Almost everyone who purchases potions ends up buying triple spell potions for 3 or 4 platinum coins each. The end result of this is that fighters run around with the buffs of wizards and priests, and the attack rolls and skills of a fighter.
My original idea for helping to solve this is not a perfect solution, I admit that. Increasing component usage when casting on other people and increasing the cost of brewing potions does not help the wizard, it only makes potions and spells more difficult for warrior classes to acquire. This addresses only one side of the issue. A perfect solution would make potions and spells valuable and rare, and at the same time would increase the profits generated by selling those services. Ideally, characters would simply start charging more for spells and potions. I know several wizards who have done it, but when they up their prices their customers all run elsewhere. If you don't need the potion right away, why buy it for 10 when you can buy it for 2 a little later?
Most people seem to agree that potions and spells should cost more than they do, perhaps significantly more than they do. Remarkably, however, prices for spells and potions remain very, very low. The only way we will ever drive up the price of spells and potions is if nearly everyone who sells their services gets on board with the concept of charging a lot more for what they can do. This is where the last idea from my original post comes in: Consider creating IC 'standard rates' for spells. It might be something the church of Mystra can do IC. Even providing guildlines for how much spells and potions should cost might go a long way toward making things better.
I think every game, every virtual world, needs a good model economy. I've played several MUDs in the past where gold was so common that it had no meaning at all. The barter system took over and it really damaged the whole experience of the MUD. That said, I don't believe we're close to having that happen here. The coins on this game have held their value for most people, but for a growing group of high level fighters and priests, money is becoming easier and easier to come by because they make money on everything they kill and have nothing to spend it on except buffs, extra magical equipment, and very rare repairs from acid damage.
The thing about a game economy is that there is not a finite amount of money. Players can all go out and kill things whenever they choose to and make money endlessly. If there were nothing for them to spend money on, they would all have endless amounts of money and it would all be worthless. Thus, it is important for players to have something to spend money on, in fact, it's imporant to have things that players need to spend money on, preferably in a way that makes gaining money similar for all classes.
We all accept that wizards have robes that damage, have components that cost money, have abilities that cost more to train...this is all accepted as the way things are. When a wizard is gaining levels, and even once the wizard is at maximum level, he or she must continue repairing their robes and buying their components.
Warriors spend money as they level up as well. They might spend several hundred platinum coins to buy a suit of good armor. The thing we need to remember is that when you buy expensive platemail, you're paying for the protection, you're not paying for indestructable armor. In my opinion, we should have no indestructable nonmagical armor and only rare indestructable magical armor. Armor that already gets damaged would not be affected by this proposal. It would continue to damage at the same rate. By having this previously indestructable armor damage 1% or 2% of the time no one is going to endure undue hardship. It's unlikely people will even be spending more money than max level wizards do.
My primary goal here is to even up the ability to make money among the classes. Decreasing money made by warrior classes is one part of the equation. The second part of the equation is increasing money made by wizarding classes. The best way I can think of to increase moneymaking for wizards is to somehow make brewing and casting spells on other people into a more profitable endeavor. We have recognized in the past that many fighters get spells cast on them by friends for little to no money. Almost everyone who purchases potions ends up buying triple spell potions for 3 or 4 platinum coins each. The end result of this is that fighters run around with the buffs of wizards and priests, and the attack rolls and skills of a fighter.
My original idea for helping to solve this is not a perfect solution, I admit that. Increasing component usage when casting on other people and increasing the cost of brewing potions does not help the wizard, it only makes potions and spells more difficult for warrior classes to acquire. This addresses only one side of the issue. A perfect solution would make potions and spells valuable and rare, and at the same time would increase the profits generated by selling those services. Ideally, characters would simply start charging more for spells and potions. I know several wizards who have done it, but when they up their prices their customers all run elsewhere. If you don't need the potion right away, why buy it for 10 when you can buy it for 2 a little later?
Most people seem to agree that potions and spells should cost more than they do, perhaps significantly more than they do. Remarkably, however, prices for spells and potions remain very, very low. The only way we will ever drive up the price of spells and potions is if nearly everyone who sells their services gets on board with the concept of charging a lot more for what they can do. This is where the last idea from my original post comes in: Consider creating IC 'standard rates' for spells. It might be something the church of Mystra can do IC. Even providing guildlines for how much spells and potions should cost might go a long way toward making things better.
It's an interesting idea, but I don't think it's really workable IC. The Church of Mystra is a not a global Magic Users Union. They may intervene for abuse of the Weave, but I think it would be rather stretching it to lump "undercharging for spells" under that. And realistically the only way to make something like that work would be to have a way to punish magic users who under charge or give away spells. From a purely IC FR perspective, Mystra would have the entire pantheon coming down on her head if she started smacking down magic users because they aren't following the Union rules 
As far as creating guidelines.....any wizard should just have to walk into an NPC potion shop to get an idea of what they should be charging.
It is exactly like you said, there is no really feasible way to force wizards to charge appropriately for their skills, it's something every wizard would have to get on the bandwagon to do.
As far as creating guidelines.....any wizard should just have to walk into an NPC potion shop to get an idea of what they should be charging.
It is exactly like you said, there is no really feasible way to force wizards to charge appropriately for their skills, it's something every wizard would have to get on the bandwagon to do.
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Balek
- Sword Grand Master
- Posts: 465
- Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2003 9:54 pm
- Location: Mithril Hall
- Contact:
I agree, the church of Mystra setting guidelines is not an ideal solution either. I feel like something has to be done, however. We've had this problem for a while now and it's becoming evidant to me that people aren't going to spontaneously change as a group. Perhaps OOC guidelines would be a better solution. A list of good rates for spells, maybe in a help file and on a webpage would give wizards a good idea of what they should be charging for spells. It wouldn't carry any IC weight and wizards would not be forced to charge those rates, but it might help the situation to some degree.
That doesn't last long when you are a a magic user or cleric doing something other than sitting in one spot doing nothing all the time. Spell componants are very expensive for the most part. Now I might agree that is how it is for fighters, but that is not how it is for all classes.Posted by Exer:
Once you reach lvl 50, there really isn't much need for coin unless you're planning on buying a house. So you only have 200 plat. That's more than enough to care of all your needs for a long time.
IC pressure could go a long way. Wizards who don't want to be undercut out of business start shunning the wizards who give it away for next to nothing. Masters who want to be wizards as a profession could discipline apprentices who undercut them by witholding teaching them better spells. There are other possibilities without having a mandatory price list...
As far as mandatory pricing, while true, Mystra's church prolly doesn't really get to weild that power because not every wizard worships Mystra... one thing that almost every wizard does have in FK, is a guild membership. If you really wanted to set standards, then they actually have IC motive to, since I seriously doubt that ICly the NPC guild members want their OWN magic prices undercut. In the days of old, guilds would make life miserable on renegades who undercut them.
Clerics, now, are totally under the proscribed standards of their faith in every aspect of their lives, including their spells. Churches very well could (and, in ICly, probably should) set standards for their priests to heal, buff, etc. other chars, and what they charge, etc. Typically, priests of most faiths would have a rough fee schedule (much like the NPCs).
Now, someone of the same faith or who is highly favored by the church might get some free healing here and there, or a free raising if they're lucky, and of course buffing party members in the course of a priest adventuring with them is another story. But just for "spell me up's", or potions "to go," the priest would be charging a fee, and to not charge this fee would be cheating his church, and the church wouldn't be so happy about that.
Likewise, priests would typically charge more for someone who was not of the same faith, and considerably more, if at all, if casting upon someone from an opposed faith.
All told, I agree, the best way to have cash flow between chars is for the nonmagics to be paying the magics what they are worth. Here's the big point, if we are serious about the prices being higher, than just start doing it. The argument of someone else giving it away for little or nothing shouldn't justify lowering on your part. Charge the 20 plat for a triple potion... Charge that 5 or 10 plat per spell... chars can agree amongst themselves that they will charge a fair price, and just do it.
So there will be those who continue to give it away, perhaps some who will extort... if a majority has a standard, that is the standard that will evolve going forward. A majority standard means the best chance others have of purchasing said spell/potion will come from the one of that majory. It's like scalping tickets or parking lot spaces at a big event.
"$5 to park? That's ridiculous!"
"Alright, you welcome to park a mile down that way and walk. Then you can park for free."
As far as mandatory pricing, while true, Mystra's church prolly doesn't really get to weild that power because not every wizard worships Mystra... one thing that almost every wizard does have in FK, is a guild membership. If you really wanted to set standards, then they actually have IC motive to, since I seriously doubt that ICly the NPC guild members want their OWN magic prices undercut. In the days of old, guilds would make life miserable on renegades who undercut them.
Clerics, now, are totally under the proscribed standards of their faith in every aspect of their lives, including their spells. Churches very well could (and, in ICly, probably should) set standards for their priests to heal, buff, etc. other chars, and what they charge, etc. Typically, priests of most faiths would have a rough fee schedule (much like the NPCs).
Now, someone of the same faith or who is highly favored by the church might get some free healing here and there, or a free raising if they're lucky, and of course buffing party members in the course of a priest adventuring with them is another story. But just for "spell me up's", or potions "to go," the priest would be charging a fee, and to not charge this fee would be cheating his church, and the church wouldn't be so happy about that.
Likewise, priests would typically charge more for someone who was not of the same faith, and considerably more, if at all, if casting upon someone from an opposed faith.
All told, I agree, the best way to have cash flow between chars is for the nonmagics to be paying the magics what they are worth. Here's the big point, if we are serious about the prices being higher, than just start doing it. The argument of someone else giving it away for little or nothing shouldn't justify lowering on your part. Charge the 20 plat for a triple potion... Charge that 5 or 10 plat per spell... chars can agree amongst themselves that they will charge a fair price, and just do it.
So there will be those who continue to give it away, perhaps some who will extort... if a majority has a standard, that is the standard that will evolve going forward. A majority standard means the best chance others have of purchasing said spell/potion will come from the one of that majory. It's like scalping tickets or parking lot spaces at a big event.
"$5 to park? That's ridiculous!"
"Alright, you welcome to park a mile down that way and walk. Then you can park for free."
"There is no safety for honest men except by believing all possible evil of evil men."
Kregor - Ranger of Tangled Trees
Rozor - Lady Luck's Duelist
Tygen - Ranger-Bard of Mielikki
Kregor - Ranger of Tangled Trees
Rozor - Lady Luck's Duelist
Tygen - Ranger-Bard of Mielikki
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Dalvyn
- Sword Grand Master
- Posts: 4708
- Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 9:26 pm
- Location: House of Wonder, Waterdeep
The Church of Mystra can't force all wizards and priests to ask for a reasonible price for potions, no. Heck, I couldn't even have all the Mystrans do that (and believe me, I tried). There is another IC approach that might be tempted, which is related to an area currently being built (which is waiting on some books to be written actually - those who are concerned will recognize it), but this too, will also target only a (more or less) small part of the brewing community.
Some IC solutions are needed (like the one I alluded to above, but the more the better), but I doubt that IC solutions will suffice.
Some IC solutions are needed (like the one I alluded to above, but the more the better), but I doubt that IC solutions will suffice.
It seems that this topic has shifted to spell costs.
My thoughts are education as you probably can't start a wizard union.
But here is the thing. If a wizard wants to give out spells for free and absorb the costs of the components, then, that's his problem. If you want to charge for spells then do so! The player that wants them from you, might go shopping somewhere else but hey, that's free-market economy for you. And besides, you wont be hassled as much by tells that say "Can you cast some spells on me"
Sure, it's easier for a fighter to solo and make coin but he's not going to be able to do much with higher levels mobs without a spellcaster's help. A wizard can make coins via code and IC.
My thoughts are education as you probably can't start a wizard union.
But here is the thing. If a wizard wants to give out spells for free and absorb the costs of the components, then, that's his problem. If you want to charge for spells then do so! The player that wants them from you, might go shopping somewhere else but hey, that's free-market economy for you. And besides, you wont be hassled as much by tells that say "Can you cast some spells on me"
Sure, it's easier for a fighter to solo and make coin but he's not going to be able to do much with higher levels mobs without a spellcaster's help. A wizard can make coins via code and IC.
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Dalvyn
- Sword Grand Master
- Posts: 4708
- Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 9:26 pm
- Location: House of Wonder, Waterdeep
Education won't do much. The problem has been pointed out several times on the forum, it has been discussed ICly in game several times too, all to no avail (not going to give details and cite names here).Exer wrote:It seems that this topic has shifted to spell costs.
My thoughts are education as you probably can't start a wizard union.
That's the problem that we are trying to solve. A thing is not automatically desirable just because it has the word "free" in its name.But here is the thing. If a wizard wants to give out spells for free and absorb the costs of the components, then, that's his problem. If you want to charge for spells then do so! The player that wants them from you, might go shopping somewhere else but hey, that's free-market economy for you.
Besides, I doubt that something like that would have worked in any medieval society. The base principle of guilds is that they set a minimum price, and do not allow guildmembers or non-guildmembers to sell goods for less than this minimum price. If you add magic and wizards, I think it's safe to say that any who would use low prices would soon be removed from the market (one way or another).
What higher level mobs are you talking about here? The five or six dragons of the game ? Perhaps the worst demons as well ? That makes perhaps something like 3 or 4 areas that can't be soloed, and then again, it depends on the fighter you are considering.Sure, it's easier for a fighter to solo and make coin but he's not going to be able to do much with higher levels mobs without a spellcaster's help. A wizard can make coins via code and IC.
As for "A wizard can make coins via code and IC", I fail to see what you mean by that. If you mean "trades" by "code and IC", brewing and scribing are not the only ones; and, as discussed above, they aren't (currently) good as money-making trades.
What about a cowled wizard of amn sort of organization that gives IC punishments for cheaply abusing magical crafts.
edit: Except this organization does as I stated.
edit: Except this organization does as I stated.
Last edited by Isolrem on Wed Jul 06, 2005 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Chars: Aryvael et all.
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Gwain
Alternatively, how about we give high levelers somewhere to spend money? How about we allow them to hire a multitude of guards and build mansions and palaces. Considering the stage many famous players in the game are at, they really should have their private multi-room mansions...
Chars: Aryvael et all.
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Arathin
- Sword Bumbler
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 9:13 pm
- Location: Ardeep Forest, High Forest
You can build all the mansions you want. Help dwellings. Even though it is on hold at the moment, most high levelers do aspire toward building a house.
Sometimes you gotta prove to your friends that you're worth a damn. Sometimes that means dying. Sometimes that means killing a whole lot of people.
-Sin City, By Frank Miller
-Sin City, By Frank Miller
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Xenia
A merchants point
Alright, so I know everyone has been waiting for me to say something. Heheh, As a PC merchant of the realms I see that people and players are really treating items and spells as though they are nothing. Everyone is always out there to get the best items or just have a wizards cast all these buffs on them to go show off their twinkishness. Well anyhow I just wanna stress that if this were a real game not everyone would have Full Chain mail or all that, many would be wearing leathers or cloths. And the way I think it should be is as in any economic culture, if nobody wants to purchase your item or spell, BARGIN! And if you don't wanna purchase at a quoted price...BARGIN! Listen if you go to a southren Flea Market, you aren't going to keep your money long if you don't BARGIN! so treat this as a chance to rp your negotiations....and such. I think that the PC economy can change greatly if your PC learns to take advantage of Merchants or The skills and spells you posess. Thanks!
Well Xenia, the thing you must realize is that the player base could be considered generally not your typical person walking on the streets. They could be considered adventurers or other things at that. The millions of MOBs walking around that aren't coded could be considered the average person walking along the streets, and yes they should (and are) clothed in cloth or even leather.
You can't necessarily say "You shouldn't wear anything but leather or cloth to make the game more realistic" to someone because it is there choice to do so and it is their characters RP.
Hope this doesn't sound like a flame. And hope I wasn't just rambling
Telk
You can't necessarily say "You shouldn't wear anything but leather or cloth to make the game more realistic" to someone because it is there choice to do so and it is their characters RP.
Hope this doesn't sound like a flame. And hope I wasn't just rambling
Telk