Death in FK

Amalia · Post by **Amalia** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:40 pm

This was touched on in the Pregnancies thread, but I thought a new thread for it might be useful...

It's come up that death is very serious and is treated with far too much levity in FK. On the one hand, I think this is an excellent point. On the other hand, I'd like to point out that death in FK is simply not the same as death is to us. When a character dies, he can still contact the people he knew and be returned to life, and not even have any permanent harm done to him in the process, though it may be rather traumatic the first time-- as different as death may be in FK, it's still death.

Permanent death or loss should be treated very differently, but even then characters may take some succor in knowing that if someone dies permanently it was probably their time, considering the presence of an entire church devoted to stopping wrongful death (and wrongful resurrection). I know my character treats "death" that a person can come back from and talk to her during as much different from even the possibility of moving on. If someone in the deadlands talks to her about just letting go and drifting into that good night, she pretty much treats it like a suicide threat and points out that if they were really ready, they wouldn't be in limbo. And if she thinks for any reason that there's a risk of losing someone wrongfully and permanently to some kind of disaster, she behaves toward that possibility as most of us might toward death-- fear and a strong urge to avoid it, and especially avoid allowing loved ones near it if at all possible.

In short, I'm trying to say that I think death would be percieved very differently on FK for a couple reasons-- it's much more common, as it was in the dark ages, and in the dark ages even permanent death was dealt with a lot better because it was so mundane; it's also possible for pretty much anyone to come back from it given the right connections-- which can be as simple as being in good with one's chosen deity.

Thoughts, questions, comments, etc. are welcome.

Lerytha · Post by **Lerytha** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:51 pm

Hmm... well, when you die you go to the Fugue Plain, not to Limbo. So, characters saying they wish to "die the final death" is not always a suicide threat. My elven characters especially, often RP having to "tear themselves from the calling light of Arvandor".

I think death could be RPed more seriously, especially (sorry about this) elven death. But sometimes, it's just not... feasible... to enter in "serious RP", when you have died, for instance, from (a year ago) typing one "west" to far and falling into the Sword Coast, where you drown to death...

Sometimes, if you accidentally have killmode nokill on, and you don't notice until you die, you can't take the death seriously.

Death with (decent) RP, I always feel, should be RPed. Part of the problem is that you go to the same death whether you die due to a "code mistake" or due to brilliant, engaging (and fun) RP. Does that make any sense? I mean, yes, we should RP all those little slip-ups - and I try to. But sometimes it just doesn't fit with what you want to do with your character.

(Is willing to be argued with - still looking for his opinion on the matter)

Theillik · Post by **Theillik** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:00 pm

I have considered what Amalia has said as well. Flippancy is the only word to describe how characters IC treat death in FK. It would realistic if death was always permanent and there was no way of resurrecting, but this would make the game less fun.

I would suggest some things:

-- Disabling the ability of mobs to heal raise dead/resurrection. (I'm not sure if any mobs can resurrect though.) Leaving the only possibility of raise dead/resurrection in the hands of Hight Priest pcs or high level pcs. I think this would promote a tremendous amount of rp when it comes to raising dead.

-- Losing one constitution point for every raise dead/resurrection/supplication/reincarnation. This ensures the character takes some sort of penalty from dying besides a few little experience points.

Those are my suggestions. I hope this thread can lead to intricate rps in the future surrounding death in FK.

Penryn · Post by **Penryn** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:30 pm

I think people are very flippant about death in the game. I have raised dead and resurrected people and then they stand up, get dressed and a few just even walked off without a word. I have given little quests to folks after bringing some back and most of the time folk ignore them and seem to believe they dont need to do them. Heck never even been offered to have the components paid for.

I think different races depends alot on the views of death in the world though from an IC perspective.

Elves - They normally would never wish to come back if they die in the world. When they die, if they follow an elf god and wish to go there, they go to Arvandor the perfect place for their people. They normally would never wish to return unless they have a deep and serious reason to. Most elven priests/druids wouldnt think of ever raising the dead as it not only is a huge risk to themselves to die from the stress of it but it is against their way of thinking. My own priest rarely will raise the dead without a reason.

Humans - They have a very different view in the world on death going to the fugue plain and all. They do more often return if they would be important enough to resolve the need for a raise dead.

Of course within game terms if all of the elves died off perminantly when killed that would be horrible. I do not have a problem with charging a con point from death or even more likely a level loss is better (since hard to get stat points). Also charging the priest exps to use raise dead, ressurection, etc would be good as well. I believe when someone supplicates ressurection then they should not be charged this loss though as that is direct intervention of their diety.

As for the mobs ability to raise dead, you could always make it more limited perhaps. But I do believe it is useful and should be there as an option.

just my own two cents for good or bad

Elwin · Post by **Elwin** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:39 pm

You cannot take away the ability to be raised by a mob in the game for the simple fact that there are not always priests on at the time someone needs to be raised. As far as losing one point for a resurrection/being raised in constitution. I am wholely against that. I know from experience that you do not always die because you were doing something alone. I have died on Imm ran RPs before and because there were bugs in the areas we were grouping in. So, I do not think that would help at all. Just my thought though.

Raona · Post by **Raona** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:53 pm

I sadly concur that many (not all!) players RP death very flippantly - however, I really disagree that code changes can fix the problem, unless they are significantly more nuanced; for example if tied to a check on rate of kismet gain vs. experience gain, or some other measure of "twinkitude."

Even if such an elaborate system were found, implemented, and determined to work with respect to death, I think it doesn't solve the root problem that not everyone here is RP focused, and that not *everyone* ever will be. However, FK is clearly more fun for those who do RP, and I think it gets old for those who don't at least occasionally get into RP. In other words, this is a problem best solved by keeping our energies focused on RP in the game, and making sure that focus is rewarding for players who pursue it. Take the time to talk with that new person in the square, wearing plain everything. Set a good example, and give them a great first RP experience - make them *happy* they got out of the Temple, not sad because now it's harder to gain levels!

Sometimes there are OOC pressures that make RPing death properly very hard. I can only play here and there, in small chunks of time, and it can be very very hard for me OOC to stay online for the long period of time required for proper RP when I die. I do it, but the difficulty of doing so has made me very skittish, far less willing to take risks that might lead to my demise IC.

Let me conclude by saying that when Raona has died, at least in "real" situations (she's drowned in the Sword Coast too, that's slightly different), my pulse has gone postal, and it's not something I take lightly, either IC or OOC. I've also brought back several folks from the dead that have RP'ed it all with absolute aplomb, to the point it was haunting...and such RP does the mystery of death, certainly IC and perhaps even OOC, justice.

Penryn · Post by **Penryn** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:07 pm

I should correct my words to state that some are flippant. Not all, it wasnt a statement for anyone in particular.

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:04 pm

Death *shouldn't* be treated lighter on FK. Death should be a serious, experience for anyone who it happens do. Nothiing cheeses me, quite like someone who takes an "it happens" attitude when they die. Yes, it happens, and just because code-wise, it is easy access to return your haracter to the living, does not mean that ICly, Forgotten *Realms* wise, death is not serious and should not be treated like it could be your final passage into the beyond.

What's even worse is a situation where a PC may be given an ultimatum, or a chance to RP in order to get a PC to raise them, and instead of playing along, they send a tell (or worse, an otell or IM) to another player "Dude! I've died and I'm not getting raised! Can you get my corpse to a temple?"

I will echo what I've put in a thread before. Death is not only too inconsequential on the game, it's barely inconvenient, unless there is intervention to make it so.

One problem with 3E D&D, in my opinion, is that perm death (the chance that you will never ever be able to come back) was totally done away with. in 2E and earlier, you lost a CON point each time, and your CON score determined your chance of surviving resurrection. So ultimately, you just died. Losing a level is inconsequential in a MUD compared to tabletop, you can just twink it back after you're feeling better.

I still say the best deterrent to twinking would be a chance that you just die permanently when you die, short of a divine intervention. People wouldn't go camp in Hartsvale with the giants alone if there was a chance they couldn't jus get drug to the autohealer and raised again.

Gwain · Post by **Gwain** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:04 pm

I would like to point out that this is a game and death happens, but as it is a game and the death is happening in game, try not to associate it with ooc if you can. If you lose your items, you are still who you are ic and ooc. It is a game, do the best you can to rp a death peoperly, and a ressurection properly. You may lose items, but it is only a game, do the best you can and that is enough. Items never ever make a character it is a character that makes the items. Death happens as does life, do not let it make you worry ooc, worry about taxes, marriage, cheese quality, puppy dogs ooc, but never let death in a game online make your life be full of worry and fret. Just do your best to rp what is right inside the game.

Rhytania · Post by **Rhytania** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:37 pm

Im all for a small (EXTREMELY SMALL) chance of permanent death. Maybe have the chance raise up on every time a char was ressurected. Heck maybe we can make it so that if the char experiences permanent death he can float around as a ghost for a few weeks, to kind of tie up any loose ends rpwise and poof. Never seen never heard from again. I was always a stickler for perm death even in tabletop. Many a times ive scribbled DEAD on a char sheet and handed it back to a player, and I know its just a game, but if you dont fear your characters death, why should your character?

Theillik · Post by **Theillik** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:46 pm

I have another suggestion.

I think the reason why people worry so much about death, and try to find *anyone* to ressurect them so quickly, is because bodies decay.

Could body decay be removed? Combined with scarce priests whom can raise dead and a loss of con point, this would increase the rp for death. People could take time to carry a body around or leave a body somewhere, time to seek a priest to raise the body.

I have played dnd games where my companions travelled for months and many many miles to find a priest whom could raise me from the dead. It was an awesome, rewarding rp.

That solves it! Gwains post after this one! With spells to preserve bodies, people can take the time to wait for a HP to come online or hold the body, etc etc. *grins*

Gwain · Post by **Gwain** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:55 pm

There is a spell coming that will stop the function of decay for an increased amount of ic time, you can look it up in the help files or such.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:22 pm

The spell is already available.

And I agree that having harsher penalties would be good. I, for one, am not too fond (as in: I kind of hate) the "free" raise dead from mobs. Especially since, no matter what people say, we have characters choosing this simpler, no-roleplay solution over contacting a PC priest. That's just a cheap way out of death that, I think, should not be found on a roleplay mud.

Lerytha · Post by **Lerytha** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:30 pm

Hmm... I know this might be calling myself a twink. However, I find part of the attraction of MUDing is a) that you can RP a character that you have spent a long time developing and that b) you spend many months developing skills, spells, etc. Sometimes you might spend months as a squire to a paladin.

It would be HORRIBLE to lose that all to a permanent death.

HOWEVER: perhaps we could have a combination. Institute the chance for permanent death, fine. But do not let your code skills be eaten up, or your guild status. Instead, why not have a command called "rename" which will let you rename your character, change your desc (maybe your faith, it depends on your choice) and then begin anew - not with all your years of work gone, but with a character that is new, but without losing any of your hard-won "power" as it were.

I know many D&D campaigns use this - if it is written on a player's sheet "DEAD" many DMs will often allow that character to create a new character, but with the same level of XP as the characters in the group. Not terribly IC, but a way for everyone in the gaming group to continue having fun.

I for one would have no trouble in that. It would also be very moving (imo) to enter the "world" as a new character (albeit more powerful than your average newbie), listening to legends about your own character. Imagine entering a room, and hearing...

-

"She died bravely, fighting against evil."

You ask, "Who did?"

A sigh. "A great hero..."

-

*shrugs* Something to think about, either way. But the benefits? Being able to have the satisfaction of truly being worried about your CHARACTER in game, but without panicking that (in the case of some classes) a year or more of work has GONE. Forever.

~Ol

Argentia · Post by **Argentia** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:48 pm

And I agree that having harsher penalties would be good.

I very strongly disagree. The game is becoming increasingly more and more difficult. Mobs are becoming stronger, and skills increase more slowly. This means that death can come easier now. If a person dies, there is no need to penalize them beyond what is already in place. It's very shameful to die as is, and I feel that is the largest and best penalty to death. If a player wants to RP their death, good for them, that's great. If not, then chances are they won't like it here much, because this is a roleplaying mud and they won't fit in. There is no need to penalize those who do roleplay out their deaths with coded penalties, aside from what we already have.

There is nothing fun about losing a constitution point every time you die. I feel that it accomplishes nothing but makes dying an awful occurance that is not fun to RP out.

I also don't agree with permanent death. I would say for a large majority of players, we come to play our characters, not to lose them. Permanent death is something that seems rather "hardcore" and should definately be an option open to anyone who wishes to pursue it, but not code-enforced. If you die, there is nothing stopping you from saying "My time has come" and not asking to be raised. But for many players, I feel that they would not want to have their character prematurely removed permanently, especially not when they have open RPs still remaining, or just feel that they still want to play their characters more.

Overall, I feel that the mud should not be a place to come and worry about death. We come to roleplay and have fun, not to lose what we worked hard for.

Lerytha · Post by **Lerytha** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:53 pm

Argentia, if the idea above were implemented, where you could recreate your character with the same skills, etc, but new name and desc, would you be more inclined to go along with permanent death? Because I would imagine it might help more people to RP out their death, in that they know that although they can enjoy the (in a sense) "final RP" of their character, they can soon return to life as a different character.

Just wondering what you thought of that idea.

Argentia · Post by **Argentia** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:14 pm

Argentia, if the idea above were implemented, where you could recreate your character with the same skills, etc, but new name and desc, would you be more inclined to go along with permanent death?

If permanent death were only an option and not a mandatory enforcement, then I would have no problem being able to "remake" your character. But I strongly feel that enforcing a permanent death is not a good idea. I can see it prematurely ruining people's RPs and fun. But I have nothing against choosing your death to be permanent. This is something that can already be accomplished, as well. You simply choose to remain dead.

Penryn · Post by **Penryn** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:46 pm

I am not at all for the idea of "remaking" the character at the same level and power. Normally when someone dies in my own campaigns they are back to level 1. A character gains prestige. They undertake quests and encounters in order to gain prestige and indeed power and abilities as well.

I think that just renaming a character cheapens that and ruins the enviroment around. Someone just "appearing" with the powers and abilities of another is a bad idea.

Now as for perminant death I am not hugely for. My suggestion was just a rping guide I often hold for my elves and I know alot of others do the same.

I would have to say for perminant death I believe it should come into affect with raise dead not ressurection. Since the power of the spell ressurection is so strong it can bring someone back without even a body at all.

I am in favor if limiting the number of mobs that can do ressurection and perhaps adding in perminant death chance upon the Mobs that do raises. It would give another incentative to do the ressurection with PCs. Then if you also raise the prices and penalties for raise dead (make it cost a redictulous amount like 2 platinum per level of the character and cost a few levels in loss of exps even). I think doing those should make it so folks will go through role playing death and realize how serious it is.

My suggestion are the following:

1. Limiting Mobs (NPC) to Raise dead for their very powerful priests.
2. Making the price for them to undertake Raise Dead much higher (2 plat per level)
3. Giving it a small chance cause perminant death.
4. Raising the cost as well of what is lost when raised dead to perhaps 2 whole levels each time.
Those should make its

Lerytha · Post by **Lerytha** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:57 pm

So, a level twenty newbie will take twenty platinum to raise? And if raised, they will lose a level?

I DO think that the "on the counter" raising in temples is a weird idea. With the implementation of a spell that will stop decay, it is a simple enough thing for someone (even on a weird timezone) to find a mage who can cast the spell and then wait for a PC priest or an Imm to help.

Maybe just abolish the raising in temples? If this was done, there should be one thing done certainly:

- Make any spell to preserve a corpse widely available - not too IC, maybe, but very helpful to those who die in odd places, at odd times.

But I do think that will abolish some of the casual nature of death. Making it ridiculously tough on those who get raised will be to the detriment of the whole thing, really. Newbies who are new to the game will be very discourage by that. I know, we can say: "Yes, but those are the kind of newbies we don't want." But... often it takes time for FK to sink in. I was the kind of newbie who would often die. Now on most new characters I don't. But if death was an OOCly harrowing experience as much as an ICly one, then... I might not be here now.

*shrugs*

Balek · Post by **Balek** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 11:31 pm

I wouldn't mind seeing Raise Dead removed from good/neutral mobs but I would like to see it left on evil faith mobs until such a time as there are enough evil priests around to do PC raising.

Besides that, I'd like to see serious XP penalties for death instead of constitution loss or permanent death. Possibly the XP amount lost upon death could increase with each death so that as you accumulate deaths you lose more and more levels when you die. Losing multiple levels in the 30's and 40's isn't nearly as trivial as it used to be. It's become significantly more difficult to gain experience since mobs have gotten tougher and apparently started giving less experience.

Death in FK

Death in FK

There's no code fix for this problem