Recent changes and the direction of the mud

[Argentia]

This is something that has been on my mind a lot lately, and I feel the need to raise the issue. This is not a flame, nor a gripe, but simply my opinions on how to make the mud a better, more fun environment to play in.

That said, I feel that many recent changes to the mud have made the game mechanics unnecessarily difficult. I also feel that there is a difference between challenge and frustration. Challenge is entertaining and engaging, but frustration... Well, that's self explainitory. My biggest concern is that harder and realistic do not mean better, or more fun. I will give examples.

Once there was a stable located in an area where many poorer characters would use it, such as paladins or priests of lawful and humble gods. The stable graciously offered their services for only a silver coin. One day, the price was raised to three gold coins. While this is not an outrageous price, and there are stables that are more expensive, I really fail to see how this makes anything more fun. I feel that this does not help anyone in anyway. It only makes poor characters even poorer. It may be more realistic, but in my opinion scrounging up gold just to stable your horse is not fun.

I have also noticed that my skills and weapon skills rarely, if ever, increase anymore. Maybe I'm just not playing right, but in my near 200 hours on my one character, I have not increased his only weapon, double-edged blades, once. None of his skills have increased, either. On my character with over 1000 hours, I have managed to GM two things. One is double-edged swords and the other is mount, two skills which I have used constantly. Again, perhaps I'm not doing things right, but it seems to me that one would almost have to twink to see any improvement at all. I don't feel that harder means better, or more fun.

Those are just two examples of a several things I have noticed. I would like to hear other people's opinions on the matter. If I am the only one who feels this way, then I will gladly keep my thoughts to myself in the future. But, I feel this is an issue which needed to be raised. Thank you for taking the time to read my opinions, and please remember that I am not trying to flame anyone, I just want to help make the mud a better place to play, like everyone else. =)

[Lerytha]

Hmm... an interesting one. Two or three (maybe five) weeks ago, I would log on at this time, normally a very busy time and see maybe seven people online. It felt like FK was... dying. Slowly, weakly, quietly, but dying nonetheless.

However, all of a sudden, it buzzed!

Suddenly, 20+ people on even at 5:00 GMT (rare even when I first started two years back)!

So, if we are talking about direction of the MUD - I'd say its on its way in a good direction. What first made me stay on the MUD was (quite weirdly) it's spell system. Any MUD that puts effort into making its spell systems similar to D&D is enough to make anyone sit up and take notice.

Once I had taken notice, I noticed the RP. And then I was hooked. Two years and a few lower grades later, the spell system has changed again. Now it's REAL. Or at least, it's gotten... noteworthy again. So now I am looking forward to fresh possibility. Which, I think, is the reason for the increase in players again.

There is an increase in imms, too (I think). Applications being processed, publications getting done, mass-folk RP! It is like everything has come alive again! So, basically, I am in love again. I was on the verge of leaving, those weeks ago. Now I am here to stay.

Do I think we are sliding TOO far into reality-based MUDing and cutting our noses off to spite our face? There IS an argument there. In our desperation to prove that we are not twinks and prove that we love RP. What can be done? I don't know. There is nothing INDIVIDUALLY that I can pick out and say "Hmm... maybe we've gone too much the other way" but there is a SLIGHT sense of it being there.

I also have a sense that we are on a crossroads, between MUSH/MUD. Yet FK is one of the most unique game out there, in that you can have the intensity of RP, and yet the fun of spellcasting/codebattles. So... let us keep to the centre ground in perpetuity, even if it means accepting a few... code-based anomalies!

(Others may have posted by the time I have finished this, so apologies if it appears I am ignoring anyone)

[Xryon]

I agree with Argentia about this, and I've spoken to several others about this.. I may not be one of the longest playing characters here, but I have been here for quite some time. Lately I've noticed a lot of steps taken to make things more "real" or more difficult. This is one of the best muds I've ever played, and i've certainly had my share, but i've started to notice that as steps are taken to make things more difficult I have enjoyed my time here less and less.. This is definitely not to complain, but where is the fun if we never gain anything? My main character is gaining on a thousand hours and since the updates started he has not gained one skill level. Again, not to complain or insult.. But a lack of gaining anything is taking a lot of fun out of FK

[Solaghar]

As someone who literally hates to gain experience via levelling and fighting tough monsters, who has never once been to Hartsvale, or anything such as that, I too have found that basically, my skills rarely if ever increase beyond the point where I can train them to initially. I can understand that this was done to slow down those people who knew how to take advantage of the system, using potions and setting up their characters just right to maximize their training potential. Unfortunately, they seem to have ruined things for those of us who do not enjoy spending time cycling areas against the same creatures over and over ways to increase their skills.

My suggestion would be this... if we're trying to get away from a system where experience, favor, etc is all granted for slaying monsters, perhaps we could come up with a system whereby people could gain skills via RP and other means. Perhaps a system of rewards akin to kismet whereby people who are rewarded for showing good RPing of certain skills could gain in those skills somehow. Perhaps we should move away from a system where skills are granted these sort of 'percentages' altogether, if we're moving towards a more complex 3rd edition setting. It's something that at least bears discussion in my mind, because while it may have slowed down those people who constantly trained their skills to a normal level of training, those who were used to the occasional random skill increase while travelling in dangerous areas or the occasional group with allies have basically lost our ability to compete.

[Tavik]

I would have to agree with all of you, in fact I put up a very similar post to this regarding reality and fun. http://www.forgottenkingdoms.com/board/ ... php?t=4999

I especially like Solaghar's idea of gaining skill via RP. I'm not really one to just go waste mobs over and over again, even though that seems like the only way to get reasonable at some skills. I would love to see the ability to to gain skill Xp via RP (spars, teaching each other, PK situations, combat simulations, etc). I would note that it would be a liability for abuse.

I think that decreasing the time it takes to train an ability via use would be better, I know that would invite twinkage, but to be honest I really think that twinkers are fairly rare anymore. Most players I run into are very RP oriented and that it wouldn't really be a problem. I understand that the longer time was established to prevent twinking, but that really just ends up hurting those that RP most of the time. They don't ever level up in anything, despite ample hours.

My vote would be to lessen the required usage time and then just spread the word to report twinkers. I think this would really benefit everyone, ESPECIALLY with the new spell system and being limited in how high one can train skills outside of their schools. It would really make these differences apparent, where as right now, everyone is pretty much a mage. I think if people were able to GM skills/spells faster (reasonably) it would be much more fun for players, which in my opinion is the entire point of the game.

No complaining intended here, just a friendly observation.

[Theillik]

In my opinion:

-- IMMs have been around a ton lately.
-- The new spell system ROCKS! THANK YOU CODERS!!!!!! WHOOO!
-- I think the game's interest level has increased. I heard from an IMM that FK hit it's highest # of people logged in EVER. I heard 45 people were logged on...IMMs included! THAT'S AWESOME!
-- The new system has quirks and the IMMs and coders and such have been doing a great job of upgrading and fixing things, etc. Thank you!

[Argentia]

This thread is really concerning the difficulty of recent code changes, not about imm involvement. Imm involvement is a wonderful, wonderful thing and the increase in it lately has been a very positive thing. But my post is not about that. It is about the possibility of code being too difficult and/or too strict.

Also, I would not like to touch on the new spell system. It is different from the old one, indeed, and while at first I was very much skeptical about it, I feel now that it is just something that everyone needs to get used to. It's not a matter of difficulty with the new system(At least most aspects of it; but I won't go into that now) just a matter of it being different.

[Lerytha]

I do think (as has been mentioned above) that skill increases/spell increases (or lack of them) is, imho, one of the few MAJOR drawbacks to the MUD. I am still playing, I still love it, but it does occasionally make me go... hmm. My mage rarely goes adventuring, anymore. She (and myself) is more of a talker - she has enough power to help those she wants to help, and a few magic items to enhance her spellcasting, but she does not generally go on these dungeon crawls or raids or anything like that.

As a consequence, she has been stuck on L45 for four months, and none of her skills/spells apart from magic mirror and meditate have improved at all. This is a tad frustrating, to me, as I see new characters about four months old overtaking my character in (simple) terms of "magical prowess". Now, I don't mean to say, "OMG, I don't adventure but I wanna be the powerfullest!" no, I don't say that. But sometimes I do feel that RP intensive characters find it a LOT more difficult to level up/gain skills.

So, how can we overcome this?

- Instead of having skilllevels for spells, have it how it is in D&D - once you have learned a spell, that is it. You know the spell. This does not make a Level 10 wizard the equivalent to a L50, because there would be increases based on level (Damage = D8 + 1 per caster level ring any bells?). This would achieve several things - wizards would not be QUITE so difficult to play (I know, I'm going on about wizards AGAIN), because they would not have to locate as much money and RP-heavy wizards would not have to worry that not going into the <insert dungeon-name here> for the seventh time will be to their detriment. But would this not give too much power to mages? Well, atm, no mage can train a level 9 spell above "adept". In order to reflect their mastery over all forms of magic, but their inadequacy in specialisation, maybe half the damage/effects/duration of any upper-level spell. That makes an invoker's uber-level-9 spell a lot more powerful than a mage's uber-level-9-spell without having to put mages in the old situation, where they had very little firepower.

- In terms of skills... have it changed to D&D terms? As in, ranks. This means that traversing a massive dungeon becomes less important - by slashing four hundred ogres, you may gain a lot of gold, but your skill in longswords won't get any higher than an RP-heavy duellist who has consistently RPed his "forms" every morning. An RP-heavy wizard who has studied the "Art" for years will not gain less skill in spellcraft than a wizard who sits in a place where priests spam spells. The drawbacks to this method?

a) Code difficulty/time - I am not qualified at all in this respect, but I assume such a massive overhaul of the code would take... a long time. But then, I assume this new spell system took time too, and we're all ecstatic with it.

b) Existing characters - how to change grandmaster "hide" into D&D skill ranks? Well, I suppose we could set up a team of D&D boffins (though I'm sure the coders are already up there with them) to discuss a fair way to reflect each characters' skills.

We already have feats reflected in D&D terms. Although it would be a drastic, drastic change, I think it would alleviate many concerns here, in that skills do not seem to increase that much.

As well, perhaps there could be a way to increase the amount of exp gained for RPing? At the moment, if we type "reward" we give kismet. An imm can give us exp... but it is about 2%, and it is not given all the time. Therefore, it is not REALLY a viable alternative to levelling up by thrashing mobs. So, maybe a radical overhaul of this, as well? Maybe have an imm in charge of "RP levelling" who would watch RP constantly, and then type "advance PCNAME", to allow that PC to gain a level. There we have a way for RP-intensive characters to level on an equal basis to those who go out on adventures. Now, some might say, "But surely the whole point of D&D IS to go on adventures?" And yes, that's true. But there are characters in the Forgotten Realms (elven mages on Evermeet, for instance) who never adventured, but are still counted amongst the most powerful of wizards.

There was unfortunately, a lot more I was going to say. But hopefully there are some ideas in here to spark discussion. Just to sum up:

- overhaul of spell system (although it is still amazing how it is) so that training a spell does not use up exp, just gold (have it cost a lot more gold if it is a balance issue here).

- overhaul of skill system, so it uses ranks

- overhaul of RP/levelling interaction

If we change those three, then... well, I think we might end up with the Elysium of MUDs.

Or, alternatively, we could increase the rate at which skilllevels increase.

~Ol

EDIT: To adapt an idea: In regards to the imm levelling up characters idea, I would also suggest, that maybe have players be able to "nominate" potential roleplay level-ups with a command like "nominate PCNAME <reason>" So, eg, FIGHTER sees MAGE RPing a very indepth study of her spellbook. So he goes, nominate MAGE For roleplaying a brilliant use of her spellbook. Then, that goes onto a list which imms can peruse, and they can then either "advance MAGE" or choose not to. That way, players also are involved, and imms do not have an unneccessary workload.

[Andreas]

I think skill improvements might need to be revamped (read: made a little easier) now that mobs have become almost exponentially more difficult.

I would love to see experience/skill improvements based on roleplay. At 50th level, gaining experience or skill improvements is an incredibly frustrating process. Yeah, there are times when I'm working on other stuff and I can just sit in a training area and beat on dummies until the cows come home. However, this is incredibly boring and, again, with the recent code changes, a very hazardous procedure that makes it more trouble than it's worth.

Why reinvent the wheel? We already have the kismet system in place for rewarding good roleplay. With a little bit of tweaking, players would be able to purchase experience with kismet and possibly even skill improvements. There's the slim chance for abuse by the twinkish players who could just sit around, idle and collect kismet, but I think this can be avoided by the intervention of Imms removing kismet from accounts for bad roleplay and/or OOC violations of the rules.

What about quests for skill improvements? I think if a quest is sufficiently difficult and has a chance of failure, the Imms wouldn't be entirely adverse to putting it in the game. These quests should be few and far between and also rely on kismet (among many other factors) for triggering.

[Kregor]

As I recall... when the Kismet system was first being introduced, and set into place. It was posed that it would be a system for roleplay. Those who spent time in the game would get rewarded. Players would get rewarded for good RP, they would get punished for bad RP, or being poor sports, "skirting the line" as discussed in another active thread right now, or twinking.

The problem is, as I've seen the kisment system in action, is that it rewards people for spending time on the MUD, and I see people rewarded for good RP. But I have only once ever known someone being punished for any of the offenses listed above by yanking a good sized chunk of kismet. So we have players who may be considered problems players, who are accumilating kismet, and able to use it.

Seeing as this is the currency we have now for special RP faiths, rare race PCs and the like, it could be good incentive to steer people away from punishable behaviour, if it is used for punishment. But now I'm digressing and bleeding over to another thread.

That said, I am in support of a skill-point based system for improving our skills as opposed to repitition learning. Repitition learning simply breeds twinkishness, and leaves behind those who don't care to kill/rinse/repeat.

But that also bleeds over into another active discussion, where Dalvyn talks supports the concept of D20 skill points in FK.

[Theillik]

I would agree that skill advancing has become very difficult.

I would also like to add that mobs destroy armour very easily now, which makes for any trip to earn money, unprofitable.

But I still think the game has gotten very exciting lately.

[Lathander]

I think some nails are hit squarely on the head. Once all of the recent changes have been "maintained" and "debugged" the next phase of development will focus on yet more improvements to FK. I think the points raised in this thread, especially the ones mentioned in the last few, will receive a lot of imm attention and discussion after all of the planned improvements are put in place.

Over the last eight months or so we hope the player base has noticed (especially the older ones) a dramatic increase in the dialogue between imm and non-imm regarding the betterment of FK. We imms have recommitted ourselves to working WITH everyone and trying to breakdown the old concept (in my STRONG opinion "misconception") of an imm vs player mentality and perceived favoritism. To this end many changes have been, are being and will continue to be, implemented.

We WANT FK to be fun. Fun for players of all different styles of rp, fun for imms as well. Unfortunately, we can't ALL (players and imms in total) on a single direction for the mud. What one person thinks is the most fun may not be any fun for another. So we do our best to find middle ground. We greatly appreciate the civility of discussions like this one and moreso the lack of flaming or whining that could so easily arise. When THAT kind of talk occurs, we begin to question why we are working so hard for players who find fault with all that is done by those who volunteer their time toward a positive end.

Keep the ideas coming! Especially constructive, reasoned specific suggestions. We may implement them, we may reject them. That's our decision to make; however, we ALWAYS consider them. The better you lay out the suggestions (as has been the case recently) the easier it is for us to discuss them. Finally, even when such ideas are approved by our imm staff and we decide to move forward with them, they do not happen instantaneously. We already have a list of things we are working on to make the mud better and items on that list are not all small or quick to do. Stick around! Have fun, help make FK an inviting place for others, enjoy what is to come and keep up the positive, supportive, encouraging suggestions for improvement.

[Tavik]

This is a little off the topic, but I feel it still fits in.

Would it be at all possible for the players to be able to access and view a continuously updated list of what is in the works to be done? This would contantly give players something to look forward to, as well as see where some ideas are on the list and how close they are to implimentation.

Also, I'm sure a lot of players would take great interest in some of the ideas if they knew what they were and offer to help out with them. I know I would definitely be one of those. This would not only help speed up the improvement of the game, I think it would improve the player/IMM relationships that Lathander touched on by allowing players to work WITH IMMs more often.

The list could be as simple as a new thread here (Maybe there is one and I missed it). I know there is the code updates forum, but I haven't seen anything new in it for quite a while. Perhaps that could be resurected and a thread like this put in place?

Just my thoughts.

[Glim]

*uploads TODO list*

*SIRENS BLARE*

*MEMORY OVERLOAD*

*internet crashes*

Concerning Tavik's suggestion, I love when games actually put out their code updates out for public viewing, its great to see the new changes of what all have been done. I believe some reasons this hasnt always been done in the past is because some code updates arent meant for the public eye. Also, im not entirely positive, but a todo list would be pretty...long. Correct me if I am wrong on any of these points.

Thanks,

[Lathander]

Correct on both points Glim. Another is that we don't work on timelines. Publishing the todo list on some level implies a timeline. We are volunteers and we get to things when we can.

[Tavik]

Alright, those were a few things I didn't think of. However I think the principle would still work. Just leave out the stuff that isn't meant for public viewing and post the public stuff (New spell system, new areas/cities, major code overhauls).

Also, I understand that there is no timeline, for such things, but for the big stuff, would I be wrong to assume that the IMMs would like some help? If the big public stuff were posted, I'm sure there would be people asking what they can do to help with those things. If the IMMs don't like this idea then that is entirely their decision. Just thought I'd bring up that it might possibly help better distribute the work load, so that even the IMMs get ample time to have fun.

Wow, seems this thread is getting kind of off topic. My fault, sorry. Perhaps we should get back to what Argentia initially brought up.

[Rhytania]

A Code update is nice but I would rather see a running Bugged list. Like perhaps a list of Skills, Areas, Quests, ect. ect., that are having known issues so everyone knows to stay away or not use activate them.

[Zach]

I would also like to note that when one reaches level 50... They only have their skills to look forward to level up... and once I had a char reach that level... I took notice that nothing was leveling up...

One char would level up in something faster then another... due to the stat differences... but a fighter character that has played for x amount of hours not leveling up once in a weapon skill... this seams... out of place... I can see a wiz playing for x amount of hours not leveling up in a weapon skill happening... but not so much a fighter...

.......... Trying to touch up on everything because I was violently sick over the weekend and missed quite a lot........

I don't want to take a long time writing this so I won't go and look for names or exact quotes so if I am slightly off... I am sorry...

Someone mentioned that changing the whole style of gaining exp...
this is way to drastic... for someone who does not fight... should not gain exp like one who does.... it just does not seem right for those who do... You get (I believe) a slight increase in exp grouping and fighting... how bout change it to not only a slight increase... but a noticeable increase... in not only exp % but also in % increase to skills... and make it a more increase to the bigger the group... maybe keep it the same for those that group with one other... but maybe for groups or like 3-4 or a major increase for those who group in 5-8... I remember a dragon slaying with 10 people!... it was no great threat... but the RP was so AWESOME! The exp was not worth it... and the 10 sec we fought the dragon I bet no one increased a skill...maybe have kismet increase the same way... while grouped?? I do not think it would require a major overhaul of the code... just a few number tweaking... but I COULD be very wrong....

... I think I am done...

[Dalvyn]

I would also like to note that when one reaches level 50... They only have their skills to look forward to level up...

I do not agree with that point of view. When someone reaches level 50, they can still evolve in the same way that should have been the focus before: evolve as a character plunged in a world. If the only "interesting" evolution for a player is to go up in levels (and/or skills), then perhaps other places are better suited for them.

Now, I agree that FK is a mud and that "something to aspire to", "something to try to reach" would be nice to have. It could be: "I want to know the wilderness very well and the names of the forests and rivers" for a wandering ranger; it would be "I want to have apprentices and teach them" for a wizard; and so on ... I could also be "I want to GM mining" or "I want to GM lapidary". But... I don't agree that the only worthy achievement is to level or "skill-level" up. There's much more than that to FK.

Someone mentioned that changing the whole style of gaining exp... this is way to drastic... for someone who does not fight... should not gain exp like one who does.... it just does not seem right for those who do...

Here too, I disagree with the principle that "If you don't train up your skills and spend your time bashing mobs, your skills should not evolve as quickly as the skills of someone who trains up and bashes mobs again and again."

I'll take the example of two players, let's call them A and B. They have a job (or homeworks to do, lessons to study and chores to do), they might have a family and friends who would like to spend time with them from time to time, ... and let's assume they can spend 6 hours on FK every week.

A logs on and, without losing a second, goes to Hartsvale to kill giants, runs around completing quests and getting rewards and barely ever stops to roleplay, meet other characters, or group up. That's how A spends his weekly 6 hours.

B logs on and types "who", notices that there are lots of rangers online and decides he'd like to go to Ardeep. He goes there, spends 4 hours chatting with rangers and roleplaying, meeting new rangers hopeful, then spends the remaining 2 hours travelling with a new player and IC hopeful ranger, showing him various ranger places around the world. That's how B spends his weekly 6 hours.

Now, in a roleplay mud, who should be "rewarded"? A or B? Maybe both, but who deserves a bigger reward than the other one? Who actually contributed to the enjoyment of all players (and not only to his own enjoyment, as if playing a single-player game)? I'd think we all agree that the answer is B.

Now, if we apply the principle you alluded in the excerpt I quoted above, B's skills should suck and A's skills should be really great. That amounts to saying that this principle punishes B for deciding to spend his limited time online actually roleplaying and increasing the general enjoyment of the game (not only for him but also for all those he roleplayed with). And I definitely do not agree with that.

Now, some will reply: Well, B chose to be well-known and most likely well-liked; that's his reward. A's reward is good skills. That does not work either. Because, once there comes a time with an imm-run roleplay with some mobs that would need to be defeated... A is going to be more or less useless in comparison with B; or A will simply not be able to go along on a roleplay because he's too low in level and skills. So that's definitly a restriction/punishment on B, while he should actually be rewarded!

And I don't buy the principle that B's skills should suck either... for two reasons: (1) B might chose to roleplay that he spends his offline time training, and (2) Training is not all.

(1) It would be perfectly understandable from an IC point of view that B thinks that mob-bashing during 6 hours is boring and not the kind of thing he wants to spend his free time on. And if B roleplays that he spends his offline time training, the weak IC excuse of "you do not train, so it's fine if your skills suck" is not valid anymore: because B ICly trains. And if we deny B the option to roleplay that, then it amounts to say that "You have to earn your high skill levels... by doing mindless, repetitive bashing". Talk about being educational! Making plain, mindless, repetitive tasks the only way to get a reward sure is not my idea of good game design.

(2) Assume that A and B are priests now, and not rangers. And let's assume that A spends his 6 hours flamestriking giants while B spends his 6 hours preaching, informing, converting, roleplaying with other faithfuls, and so on. ICly, if you were A's and B's deity, which one of your priests would you favour the most? The flamestriking twink or the devout preacher? I'd think you'd favour B more. And since a priest's powers directly comes from his god... B's flamestrikes should actually be much more divinely hot than A's! So... A's skills should suck and B's skills should be high!

The same could be said about a wizard spending his time studying spellbooks, researching spells, and discussing magic with apprentices and collegues. Or a fighter teaching and revisiting battle movements with his apprentices, and so on... Training/mob-bashing/spam-casting is really not the ultimate way to improve. At least not if we want to remain consistent with DnD and the "roleplay" label set on FK.

[Amalia]

I am in total and complete agreement with Dalvyn on the above post. Like many people, I much prefer RP to going around just killing things and making money, but unlike many, I'm lucky enough that I have some time when few people are online that I can waste making the money I need for things like spell components and training, and working on the skills and spells that only go up through practice. I think it would be peachy if there were a way that RP-intensive situations could be mechanically rewarding without having to tax the time of the IMMs by having them constantly watching and rewarding such things.