Treatment of priests

Rhelian · Post by **Rhelian** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 12:13 am

I agree that a lot of the time, clerics are used as a raise dead service and are otherwise discounted. In general, many of the clerics don't get a lot of respect, and I've seen that get continually worse since I've been playing here.

However, I'm wondering what would happen in a situation where a cleric character leaves little room for other characters to respect them? Through actions or attitude certain people annoy others, cleric or not. I have seen several situations where some clerics disrespect or belittle the importance of other characters, and the gods they might serve. If these characters then show no respect for the cleric than insulted them, are they then likely to suffer the anger of that god? Also if it comes to a PK situation, and it is a cleric against a non-cleric, should the non-cleric expect serious repercussions if they defeat and kill the cleric?

As mouthpeices of their God, shouldn't the clerics be extra careful about how they act around other people, so as to portray their faith in the right light? And if they are offensive, how would a general person respond to such things? Reporting to the high priest? Trying to force healing on someone, which has happened to a few of my characters, is an example of what I would consider a negative way to act.

I guess you could boil it down to a simpler question: Are we to now treat clerics as sacrosanct, or will there be individual evaluation of each occurance? Also, what would constitute disrespect to the level of a God's wrath?

Nedylene · Post by **Nedylene** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 3:18 am

Can you expect this treatment Rhelian from clerics of evil gods? Most of the evil gods support their followers in spreading the glory and word of their lord or lady and grant favor for belittling other faiths. Can you expect this treatment to others? And those of good faiths.. how would you respond if you started to feel used by other faiths as a life cannon? Wouldn't you as a person and possible a character grow bitter at the way others were treating the gift of your lord/lady and begin to feel that they did not respect your faith and did not wish to respect it, did not wish to learn about it, and did not wish to give anything to your lord/lady?

There are many different scenarios that can occur to priests and to both sides.. both the priests and to the other players.. they need to remember something we should all remember in IRL situations. Treat others how you wish to be treated.

Stayne · Post by **Stayne** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:37 am

I understand all that his been said here quite well, as I tire of the lack of respect that priests get, especially in their domain. I have had my priest publicly abused by another priest, and his god insulted, in an area where such words would often mean instant death. Just because the mobs are not coded does not mean they are not there!! And even if you charecter is powerful enough to 'code-wise' kill other charecters, you think you Diety is going to grant you such powers at the risk of offending another Diety!! Priests should well know the standing of their dieties in the panthenons and what powers they have. A minor diety telling a greater diety off just doesn't happen (often).
While that is an evil stand point, the same goes for good charecters. Though you are alone with a priest, insulting their god WILL be overheard by others, and rumours and gossip travels quickly.

As for those that are not priests but are of faith, yes, more respect is definetly needed. They are not your "betters" as many people seem to think they act like. They are simply closer to the diety you share. This does not make them perfect people for there is no such thing.
To this end Rhelian is right in many ways. Alot of priests I have met assume themselves to be the be all and end all of their diety, that what they say must be right for they are a priest. Some of these priests (and I realise there are exceptions based on the different doghma) need to relax, but, if their RP is that way then fine. We also then need to understand that there are MANY ways to worship a diety. Some dieties cover many different portfolio's, and a non-priest charecter showing dedication to one aspect, is commendable. Many priests I find tend to berate these people for not showing dedication to all aspect. They must realise that this does not have to be so, for they ARE NOT priests.
I know for certain that a thief who would pray to Cyric (the only god worth praying to of course

for assisstance in his assassinations would probably be well though of by Cyric (assuming he even cared enough to listen). Should a priest then tell that thief off for lack of dedication because he cannot lie or decieve, or try to press him into services as such, assuring failure, then I would expect Cyric would be upset with his priest more than anything, for he is obviously a fool (though he might just kill both to save the headache

What am I on about?
I am agreeing with Sharni completely, we do need to treat priests, especially of our own diety (where doghma permits it) with more respect but at the same time, I would like to see those priests further their own RP by promoting that respect as appropriate to their Diety.

Hope that helps?
-Stayne

Nysan · Post by **Nysan** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 7:21 am

Respecting priests? Umm, thats almost a laugh when I think about how some characters have acted around priests (note: I do not just mean my priest, behavior observed by my alts as well). I run a priest of an evil faith, granted he is not the most...loved person in the world, but I would have to almost completely agree that there is little respect for what his role in life is. Not referring to how people react to his behavior and lovely attitude, but his role a a priest of his faith. As I said, my alts have also seen priests being approached only for healings and raising, sometimes not even thanked for the act, and treated almost poorly by some if they do not follow the same faith (and not just good aligned/bad aligned different faiths but one good faith follower against another good aligned faith). In general, I consider this a problem desperately needing addressing and hope/encourage players to consider how they treat priests, even if they are not of your faith. Just think before acting folks....

N.R.

Isaldur · Post by **Isaldur** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:38 pm

By disrespect I interpret they mean within-faith or direspect between characters that should not have it. My own cleric brought this exact mouthpiece thing up ICly once and was ridiculed and yelled at for it (This was before the nice RP in Waterdeep policy). It's a thin line to walk, your character may find some cleric so annoying and repulsive to even associate with that you are insulting them, however I think in those cases you're at odds with the behavior of the character itself, not the religion or god of the character. Even those who follow the same god may not like one another fully, and then there's the whole cities thing. I know I myself have endured the falling golden nuggets of the gods before, and while I still think I was right in doing what I did, someone else didn't. Perspective, circumstances, alignment, race, all of that determines.

Intra-faith direspect is a very different problem however, if you follow a god then your God is going to have A) A chosen reprisenative (I.E. Cadderly, or one of the 9 billion Chosen of Mystra) or B) A very high ranking cleric. Either A or B are mouthpieces or more of their god/goddess and they should be listened to, respected, and obeyed in most cases.

Beshaba · Post by **Beshaba** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 12:26 am

I think it should also be kept in mind that while general disrespect might be IC for your character, to get snotty with someone who just raised you from the dead is asking to have the gift of restored life taken back very promptly, or at the very least, end up with that, and others of their faith,
priest never being willing to raise you again. I have had this happen both as a PC and as an Imm switched in to a mob to raise someone.

From the miraculous gift of IMMVision I have seen priests called from across long distances in a demand, not a request, for everything from being raised from the dead to the ability of flight. Oddly enough, I almost never see the word 'please' tossed in there or 'thank you' when the request has be fulfilled. Nor do I often see offers for compensation for both spell componants and time.

Isaldur · Post by **Isaldur** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 12:55 am

There's an easy fix for that,

Players of priests start charging money like in actual AD&D/Forgotten Realms.

900 or so gold for a Raise Dead, 1500+ for a Resurrection.

I'm certain that if the player of priests in FK would adopt that for dealing with members outside their own faith you'd see more people ask for it to go back to the old cheaper way of pleases and thank yous.

Rhianon · Post by **Rhianon** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:59 am

Charge for services rendered........nice idea, but when you do that and you make the charge inline with the service your labled greedy and told perhaps you should only charge 5 gold or 10 copper as people cannot afford the exorbitant price your asking, so you go back to not charging so that players can use and abuse you for little bit of nothing..........and asking for something in return for those services even it it is only to take the time to create something, well again good luck, yes there are those who honor their debt, but many more who do not.

Isaldur · Post by **Isaldur** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:18 am

Bringing the dead back is costly, it takes the power of gods, and churches DO CHARGE LARGE SUMS. It's far from greedy, it's payment for an extremely powerful and rare service rendered.

Beggers can't be choosers, they can stay dead if they don't want to pay, and they can pay if they don't want to show gratitude on some level.

Nysan · Post by **Nysan** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 9:15 am

Just a side note on charging... Most who rp with my little priest know his policy on this, and most people have reacted negatively about it. I have heard everything from 'Its your duty as a priest.' to 'I cannot afford to pay you, do it anyways.' Asking for something in return, especially if the priest in question has to travel a ways or give up something, like the cost of spell components is not being greedy or evil (as some have told my priest when he asked for compensation), simply a curtisy for a service rendered. Personally, people whining about a small fee has made my priest greatly reduce the amount of raising and aiding he does. I don't know about other players, but it is just a demoralizing thing when no one is willing to give back when they so willingly want to take. Just a thought and an opinion. Have fun...

N.R.

Tyr · Post by **Tyr** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 2:12 pm

On charging for raise dead:
Raising someone from the dead is a serious issue that most priests do not take lightly. The priest in order to raise someone has to decide that that persons destiny on FK is not yet complete and that it was not his time to die. It is not a dead persons right to be raised, rather it is the exception to the rule. This means that real compensation is not out of line for a priest who takes the responsibility on himself to change the course of destiny and raise a character from the dead.

On respect:
Think of priest characters in these terms. The lowliest priest of Tyr is the priest in the catholic church down the street. Higher ranking priests within the church of Tyr are like catholic Bishops. Tyr's high priestess is the equivilant of the Pope. Now for each of these ranks how much respect do you think you are going to show these characters? Perhaps you are a follower of Torm aka Anglican. Maybe you follow Sune and are a therefore jewish. How many jews when granted an audience with the pope will disrespect him because they are jewish and he is not THEIR pope? Just remember that whatever god you follow, you must respect another gods pope.

Tyr

Mele · Post by **Mele** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 6:10 pm

Okay, please please please don't take this as though I am questioning anyone's rp:

In my opinion, the problem with asking for payments of any form, is simply that there are active priests/ess' who perform everything that is granted to them completely free of charge. Which is obviously in their rp, and their choice to do so. However, if a brand new grocery store opened, and started giving everything away for free, would you go back to your old one? If one is to need to be raised, or healed, and they type who, it is very likely they will call to the Priest/ess who does not charge, as opposed to the Priest/ess who does.

Does this make sense? Am I sane? Just my thoughts. :)

Isaldur · Post by **Isaldur** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 8:17 pm

Honestly the only faith I can think of that would do that is Ilmater, but even then wouldn't Ilmater charge the people that can pay it so they can donate the money to helping folks that are needy?

There's alot of wheels within wheels that go with this stuff, and any cleric that does charge money should probably tithe it (Minus resupplying on ingredients) to the church right? (unless you're an evil person..)

Like Tyr said, Raise Dead and Resurrection are very very big deals when it comes to the Forgotten Realms world, and he explained what I wanted to much better than I can. Straight, to the point, and making sense.

Tazmin · Post by **Tazmin** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 12:25 am

I am curious how you apply this to opposed faiths. Someone said you should be respectful to another high priest because they are the "pope" of that religon. By this reason A Tyran priest should be all buddy buddy to the high priest of Mask?

Am I expected to be all nice to the Tempite high priest? The Cyric high priest? These people are foes of my goddess and the bane of my existance. Heck, I am not respectful to Tempus himself and won't bow to Cyric, you expect me to be nice to there clerics? (Yes, I have been zapped by Cyric, Lost a leg in fact.)

Now a cleric of a good religon would most likely be respectful of the other good faiths, and several of the neutral ones. I just cannot see being nice to opposed faiths. It is like slapping your own god in the face.

As for the raiseing of the dead there is a soluotion to this as many others have posted. I would like to add that the spell will not work at all unless you are in a temple of your god. Then you can charge and just tithe it all to the priest mobs there. This spell is a major ritual and should be done in a holy place.

Out of curiosity, does the spell age eaither person in it? I am pretty sure it is supposed to.

Andreas · Post by **Andreas** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 12:29 am

We seem to have moved away from the general discussion on the treatment of priests to another rant session on raising the dead. Moving back to the original topic...

How much respect is enough?

I think we can all agree that Andreas treats everyone with a great deal of respect. So what to do when some priest gets miffed thinking they're not getting ENOUGH respect? Kow-towing might be expected in some circles, but that certainly isn't the norm - especially among the good aligned faiths.

What about faith enemies?

The nice RP rule in Waterdeep can make for some... interesting... RP. But outside of that, I fully expect faith enemies to be... well... ENEMIES! Take a page from history and look at the Crusades. That was the Christian empire vs. the Muslim empire - a very long and bloody holy war.

On the opposite side of the coin, how about faith allies?

I've noticed a disturbing trend with some PCs that they only care about their faith and to the Abyss with everyone else. Well, for a Cyricist that's just find and dandy, but between other faiths (read: good faiths) and especially ones that are cited as allies in the source material (Faiths & Avatars, Demihuman Deities, etc.) to be treating each other like unwanted relatives who showed up for holiday dinner is a bit uncalled for in my opinion.

Last but not least... I'll bite *GRIN*

What about treatment of paladins?

"The paladin is a noble and heroic warrior, the symbol of all that is right and true in the world."

2nd Edition Players' Handbook, p. 38

Just like a priest, a paladin is the embodiment of the will of their deity. There have been several occasions in which another PC actually questioned Andreas's right to represent the will of his Patron. Umm... *peer*

Paladins have a strict code of ethos to which they MUST adhere or fall from grace and lose paladin status. Again, what person in their right mind would question either a paladin's word or honour? Making accusations against a paladin, especially false ones, could lead to being cursed by the paladin's deity!

There's a reason paladins must have a high charisma - people look up to paladins and, for the most part, respond positively to the inherent goodness of the paladin. Technically, paladins project an aura of protection (from evil) ALL the time (not just when they cast the spell on the MUD) due to their good and holy nature.

"Evil opponents experience the paladin's aura of protection as an unpleasant physical sensation, such as mild nausea, a prickling of the skin, a tightening of the throat, or a sudden chill."

The Complete Paladin's Handbook, p. 15

I've only ever witnessed TWO evil characters to react to Andreas's aura of protection. You know who you are and I say KUDOS to you!

Just because a paladin is humble doesn't mean it's fine to walk all over them. Mistreat a paladin, and you'll most likely have the entire faith (not all of whom are bound by a paladin's code of ethics) if not the deity themself down on you. Incur the righteous and holy wrath of a paladin and look out Bubba! Ain't gonna be a hidey hole deep nough fo ta save ya! Best outcome of that situation is simply being declared an enemy of the faith and refused any and all aid. Worst is having the whole church hunting you down as a heretic.

Nysan · Post by **Nysan** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 4:57 am

Just a quick thought, be sure the faith you think is your faith's enemy really is that, your enemy. There is a bit more than foe and friend in most things, faith included. Opposite faiths are enemies, no thought invovled there. But, from what I have been noticing, there has been different answers from members of the same faith about faiths that are not officially listed foe/friend. A faith might not be popular, but that doesn't make it a faith enemy. Anyways.... considering some of the behavior I have observed, take a second to think if that faith is an enemy..or just not a friend.

N.R.

Tempus · Post by **Tempus** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 8:59 am

There appears to be some confusion here about the meaning of 'respect'. By showing respect we mean common courtesy offered to a representative of another, or your own, deity. This would include priests of directly opposing faiths, and would not, as Tazmin implies, be like 'slapping your own god in the face'. Note again we are talking of respect, not being 'nice'. It is trivial to show respect to someone without being friendly - I am sure you do it in the real world all the time.

Stayne · Post by **Stayne** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 9:18 am

Andreas wrote:
There's a reason paladins must have a high charisma - people look up to paladins and, for the most part, respond positively to the inherent goodness of the paladin. Technically, paladins project an aura of protection (from evil) ALL the time (not just when they cast the spell on the MUD) due to their good and holy nature.

Just because a paladin is humble doesn't mean it's fine to walk all over them. Mistreat a paladin, and you'll most likely have the entire faith (not all of whom are bound by a paladin's code of ethics) if not the deity themself down on you. Incur the righteous and holy wrath of a paladin and look out Bubba! Ain't gonna be a hidey hole deep nough fo ta save ya! Best outcome of that situation is simply being declared an enemy of the faith and refused any and all aid. Worst is having the whole church hunting you down as a heretic.

I agree completely with what Andreas has said here. There are many charecters who are like this. Who general position cannot be questions for they have earned that position. Though they are still human and make mistakes, for even ideals can cloud an issue, or not allow it one to see it from all perspectives, something I am sure Andreas is aware of.
But this is not what I am reply for.
The main thing is about how Andreas says that if you treat someone badly, their diety is likely to curse you and members of their faith shun or torment you. Even allies of said faith or person will act the same way.

The problem is, most players need to see this happen to believe it. The charecter this login is for, Stayne, is a Priest of Cyric. With Cyric at the height of his power, his followers are feared, as much as priests in other faiths are respected. In Zhentil Keep a priest of Cyric could order you killed, or even do it himself, and no-one would care. Citizen know not to insult thes faithful because the Zhent would happily fall all over the insultee, not just to curry favour, and therefore positions (promotions), but because they know they can also get good coin out of such arrests.
If someone insults my priest in the middle of ZK square, and many have, and many more have even insulted Cyric, you can bet they would be in the dungeon if not in pieces. To continue RP I have asked if they would like that tour (of the dungeon), and the constant response I get is "Go on...do it, lock me up". Are you all fools?
The answer is yes. Most tend to be (well you don't follow the only true god do you

. But only because they know, that code-wise, my charecter can't do that - and most once they learn that you 1000 hours od RP and 100 hours of training and are only level 18 will even threaten you (even if you are a high priest) since code wise, they can mop the floor with you. Now, I don't want to have to see code changes made to accomodate such things, but I tend now to walk away from such people as I consider this RP to be of the poorest quality. In doing such it means I have to leave those I would RP with. I am pretty sure my problems are echoed on the "good" side of things as well.

Perhaps it is my RP that is poor, as I do not know how to get my charecter to handle such situations without resorting to code. After all I cannot force RP onto anyone, I can just do my actions and see what their response is.

I would be interested to hear back from Andreas, IMM's and all other players, how they handle such situations, what RP tricks we can use to show the positions we have earnt without having to tell people, because, after all - new players won't know Andreas is a Paladin, and though they may see him as a shiny knight, they might think that a reason to give him the brush as many peasants have consider such people to have bromsticks shoved...well....you follow me

Oops - got sidetracked, anyways - all feedback here is helpfull and appreciated.

For those who do give the respect, or RP true to their charecters. WE know who you are, and love you for it! Keep up the good work

Cheers
Stayne

Andreas · Post by **Andreas** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 12:06 pm

I agree with you Stayne, a Cyricist priest would be feared and respected (well, maybe not respected, but certainly feared) within their own baliwick: Zhentil Keep.

ElseMU* that I've played in the past, it was possible to set players as "watch members" of a city and they had access to commands that would allow them to throw other PCs into the city dungeon. Maybe something like this needs to be implemented (if it hasn't already) on Forgotten Kingdoms?

While I would much rather see people roleplaying a proper response to a Strifeleader, I believe this is one time where the code needs to back up the roleplay. There's simply no way the guard in the market of Zhentil Keep would stand idly by while someone hurls insults at a priest of Cyric there. Said guard might not particularly like the priest, but he would certainly fear the wrath of the Mad God.

Granel · Post by **Granel** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 5:17 pm

I think I'm starting to understand this, a Suneite could show strength of character by going to raise a fallen Tempurian and thereby inproving their standing in the eyes of a tempurian. Just because they might not like the Tempurian does not mean they would not help them, besides it is what they choose to do, though I might be wrong since I am looking from my perspective and not the sunite ones(sorry in advanced)

I think what happens is that over time we begin to only see the benifits of what a priest can do and not see the priest anymore. This does not work though some are finwe with letting themselves be used as tools to a certain point others would be overly offended. I mean if they take the time to embrace the difficul journey to the pinacle of faith and reverance why should they only use the gifts of the gods without having anyone stand around long enough to hear their wisdom, consult their insight, feel their wrath and trade cooking recipies. They are peopel, intune with the ways of the beyond and back and anything from their lips is like a thunderclap of soul and strength. Arguing with a priest is like arguing with a god, you can stand there gnashing your teeth but you cannot bend their ethos, if you could then they would not be a priest or priestess. Therefore when one enters a room be it a foul priest of Cyric, a Holy priest of Tyr or anyone else there should alway be a sense of reverance that the god is with the follower and listening in even if they are not there, because they just might be there.

Faith is everything, life is important and those that guide us through life are beyond our thoughts lest we are among them, they should be treated like pious holders of ethos or generate reverance through fear and malice.
Treat them as tools or toys and they'll make you pay or never help you. Make an agreement and keep it or you'll have to deal with them.

In the end, the priestly class is beyond scruitiny because they are close to divinity because the gods grant their power and their logic. I think that the power they wield is their given gift from the powers and they cannot be forced into sharing it under any circumstances, forced prayers are'nt really prayers.

Thank you.

Treatment of priests

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RE: Treatment of priests