Elves and magic

Dugald · Post by **Dugald** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:49 am

The difference would be an accent is different than a clearly pronounced word. And the accents can, typically, get figured out from the words you do recognize. When you get a whole sentence of some made up elven words, when your character speaks elven - you are forced to ask ooc what the sentence means in english (not common, since it's ooc).

Dwarves saying something like, "I found the azgal in the grambak" accented or not accented would be the same thing as the elven words. Characters who speak dwarven know what Azgal and Grambak mean...but the players don't. So you're forced for an OOC explanation, since legitamitly the character understands the phrase.

It's not a big deal to me, but it can be rather intimidating to new players...no one wants to look like an idiot by asking what words mean, IC or OOC, and plenty probably don't even realize that their characters /do/ know what it means.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:59 am

The reaction I have when I see an elf use pseudo-elven words in a sentence... I would also have it in front of a dwarf saying the sentence you presented above. To me, neither are acceptable.

I think it's all fine and fun for dwarves to modify a few words and include the dwarven accent. That's something that - even as a non English native speaker - I can get over (obviously, as long as the words are not distorted to the extreme as in the example you gave above). Things like changing "about'"in "aboot", or "alright" into "a'reet" are fine. It remains possible to understand the speech without having to go to resources outside the mud.

The same is not true when people use completely different word (instead of just distorting some of them).

Several posters have basically said that "If you are to roleplay an elf, then you'd better make some research into what it is to be an elf, and you should know words like Telquessir and whatnot." That's a one-sided argument. What about if I want to roleplay a human linguist follower of Oghma? Do I have to research all the pseudo-elven words, plus all the pseudo-dwarven words, plus all the pseudo-halfling words, plus all the pseudo-gnomish words before I can roleplay? Or will I be forced to be on the receiving end of sentences that I cannot understand - even after GMing languages - just because the other character has taken the time to research those words and thinks it's "cool" to use them? Will I also be forced into believing that using those words "improve the roleplay"?

I'll take another example to attempt to show what is wrong with using those special words. Let's say I have found a wonderful web page where they explain a system to create incantations for the spells. This system might associate "magic missile" with the phrase "Rabamal Schnea Vizzigor", and "fireball" with the phrase "Billbolfi Schnea Ragnakor" - you will all have understood that "Rabamal" means "magic", "Billbolfi" means "fire", "Schnea" means "projectile", "Vizzigor" means "one target", and "Ragnakor" means an area. And if you have not understood it, then just do a search on Google and find that web page I alluded to.

Now, generally, when someone casts a spell near you, and you are good at spellcraft, you get a message like "You guess that X is casting (spellname)". Assume that I convince the imms to remove those messages when I am casting, in exchange for the promise that I will always say the incantation before casting.

People around me will thus see Dalvyn chants "Rabamal Schnea Vizzigor" or Dalvyn chants "Billbolfi Schnea Ragnakor" instead of the normal "You guess that Dalvyn is casting (spellname)" message. Wouldn't those people be entitled to complain that this change makes their "spellcraft" skill useless? Say that they complain... do you think they'll be satisfied by an answer like "Oh, but that improves my roleplay. You want to have a character good at spellcraft? Well, dude, work for that! Go to that web page and learn all the incantations then"?

Shabanna · Post by **Shabanna** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:20 am

okay...
before we get too ridiculous... We are talking about maybe 4 words total that I have seen elves use regularly. lol
I dont think... It takes a lifetime of research to understand Tel' Quessir, N'Tel'Quessir, Arvandor, and reverie.

If someone has a title that is confusing to me...or that I dont "get" *shrug* does it ACTUALLY effect *my* RP?? No. I can either look it up, ask, or go on blissfully ignorant ( in any case it makes no difference to me personally.)

My point about Dwarven verses Elven was this... According to the regulations of the game... THIS MUD... the FK mud...
Dwarven RP (with dialect and dwarven language) is both required and enforced

http://www.forgottenkingdoms.com/board/ ... ?p=906#906

While my elven RP with *four* elven words (and no coded weird accent) is somehow elitist? This seems wrong... to me... very wrong...

That is all Im sayin...

"The Banna"

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:25 am

Dugald wrote:The difference would be an accent is different than a clearly pronounced word. And the accents can, typically, get figured out from the words you do recognize. When you get a whole sentence of some made up elven words, when your character speaks elven - you are forced to ask ooc what the sentence means in english (not common, since it's ooc).

So you can translate this whole sentence, similar to Shabanna's, from the accepted dwarven accent/language on FK, without looking up any of the words?

You say 'ye wur blootered an' manky so Ah telt ye tae go tae the jacks'

In REAL English, that's "You were drunk and messy, so I told you to go to the toilet."

My sentence, above, worded similarly to Shabanna's, was said using the dwarven accent-a-lizer built into the game. (if you are a dwarf, you can use it by typing "accent dwarven" and type in plain english.) Not only does it use the same dwarven slangs as the reference she used for the sentence, but the last word, isn't even the same slang word. Furthermore, this was built into FKMud, therefore considered appropriate language for a dwarf. So... if it is unacceptable to have words in any language you can't understand for the sake of RP, then we need to junk the dwarven accent-o-matic function in FKMud.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:40 am

And? What is the point?

That the dwarven accent might need to fixed? I agree. That it needs to be junked or that it is completely broken? I don't agree - that's just exaggeration to try and bring a point across.

Does that mean that, because the dwarven accent is not perfect, people can start using pseudo-elven words? No.

And I'm not talking about "Arvandor" - Arvandor is the name of a place. It's "Arvandor" in English too. And I'm not talking about "reverie", which is a correct English word as well (which actually comes from the French rêver - to dream).

I am talking about all the words that DO HAVE an equivalent in English (even if the translation is more than one word). I do not know all of them, but there are more than just Tel'quessir and N'Tel'quessir.

Apillini · Post by **Apillini** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:45 am

I have to ask... how does adding words that people OOCly don't understand enrich RP? To me, that only puts a stopper on it. I'm not pointing fingers here or being offensive at anyone in particular, but it seems show-offish. Not everyone has the time or inclination to bring up an elvish dictionary (which isn't always easy to find) to look for the one word you're talking about in the RP. Not to mention, if both parties are RPing an elf and one busts into some OOC elven (as opposed to the already coded IC elven), the one who doesn't understand OOCly is kind of left in the dark. You can't really ask ICly "what does that mean?" because it's not consistent with IC roleplay. Sure, you can ask the player OOCly, but the point is, you shouldn't have to.

If I remember correctly, I have seen a post somewhere about that regards speaking different OOC languages ICly, with French being the equivilant of Tethyrian (if memory serves), etc. There was also another post that said that no OOC languages (such as French, for example) were to be used ICly. I think what the administrators are aiming at here is a MUD that everyone can enjoy. If you're new to FR and you come on FK to see people speaking elven... well, that may be an extreme situation, but I still consider it detrimental to RP rather than a good addition. It was apparently decided that even using small words in other languages was similarly detrimental. So, if we can't allow real languages, which are MUCH easier to access and even for some to automatically understand, why should the admins allow these languages?

While I, personally, don't mind doing a fair amount of OOC background research for one of my characters, I don't think we should expect others to do the same for OUR characters. That aside, while I would research an elf's history and RP before trying to play one, it really isn't fair to expect someone to learn a whole LANGUAGE or even memorise words of it so they can RP the character they had in mind. The language is coded in the game. If you want to speak elven, use that. That's how I see it. It's not really fair to expect anyone who doesn't know the language or anything about it to go searching for a word that doesn't have much of a place in the game to begin with.

Apillini, who only seems to post when she has something to argue.

Dugald · Post by **Dugald** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:57 am

"You say 'ye wur blootered an' manky so Ah telt ye tae go tae the jacks' "

That's slang, in common (scottish - for some reason dwarves speak scottish common). Like dwarven "yiddish" - which is much different than dwarven. In that situation blootered is assumedly not a real dwarven word, but a word created by dwarves for the common language.

The elven examples aren't slang, they're elven. Elves speak, in nearly all references, flawless common. Dwarves speak, in nearly all fantasy references, ridiculously terrible common.

I agree with Shabanna as well though, if it's only handful of words, the solution could be as easy as a small help file. "Common elven terms" option under the elven help file. And then not go too overboard straying from those.

Lerytha · Post by **Lerytha** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:22 am

I agree, that elves using loads and loads and loads of elven, is wrong. However, I feel I really have to defend my use of Tel'Quess, and n'Tel'Quess, here.

The translation of n'Tel'Quess in common, is "not-People", but it does not mean exactly what people think it means, when translated into common.

Humans not extremely well-versed in elven culture, (even if grandmastered in elven) might grow haughty, when an elf says "not-People", because it does not translate well from elven to common. The spirit of the meaning is lost in translation.

Humans well-versed in elven culture, would have a small knowledge of what it would mean. So, to them they would not call it "not-People", they would call it "n'Tel'Quess".

Now, from the OOC point of view. If I as a player, to avoid the stigma of snob, am forced into the following:

Miriel sighs, and gazes sadly at her brother elf, "It is different for the not-people, brother. They are unable to enter Arvandor."

The player OOC would see "not-people" and make a judgement OOC on what that means. If they are playing an elf, unless they knew what not-people means, they would react differently. If they are playing a human, they would think OOCly, that's not fair. Now yes, it might in a sense make for more realistic RP of where a human discovers the elf considers him "not-a-person". But it is not realistic, that in an example, for instance, of a human who (IC) has been with elves many, many times, speaking their language well, should suddenly think: "Oh, god" because OOCly, his player sees "not-People" written in common.

I feel that when I say Tel'Quess, n'Tel'Quess (I think those are the ones I use most), I am quite within my rights. OOCly, I am ALWAYS willing to let a newbie elf, or even a human, know what it means. And then, I can let them ICly decide whether to react as if, "OMG, why aren't I a person?" or "Ah... the elven etc etc of language etc etc *cough* snob".

I think there is -nothing- wrong with using Tel'Quess and n'Tel'Quess. But then, I think we're all getting so worked up about these small terms. I don't think anyone is actually really suggesting that saying Tel'Quess is bad. If they are, I really don't think that's fair at all, because all it takes is one quick OOC just to let people know, and bingo, that's it.

HOWEVER: the issue comes, when two elves will sit there using the elven translator, having long discussions in elven. When I was a new player, enamoured of the elven dictionary and my own "greatness" *cough* (I did used to be a snob) I would spout elven sentences. That was, in my opinion, poor roleplay on my part, and would never consider doing that again. I think I stopped that, after about a month.

But Tel'Quess and n'Tel'Quess are well-enough known, that I feel we should continue using them. And if they aren't, maybe on the elven resources here, we can just add a quick two lines:

Tel'Quess = "the People"
N'Tel'Quess = "not-People" (though the exact translation is debated, even now, amongst scholars - and even elves).

I am sorry if it makes people feel I am being a snob, but unless we are henceforth banned from using those two words, I will continue using them. I agree firmly that anything more than these two might be considered poor form (I am lowering my standards here, to meet the discussion halfway: I still think using things like Ar'Tel'Quess is fine, but I doubt I'd get agreement in that, so I'm settling for the two most important words to my character and, I think, most elven characters out there).

I also feel I should say that Dalvyn hasn't actually said he supports long-eared humans, as he made clear in his second post. The issue is the language, I think, but that has been covered elsewhere extensively, and I have already put my view on the n'Tel'Quess and Tel'Quess situation.

If in doubt in elven RP, ask OOCly: if they treat you horribly, let someone higher up know. That's what I'd suggest. Or failing that, allow yourself to feel elitist, against those stuck-up roleplayers who take the game so seriously they can't lend a helping hand to a newbie who is curious enough to ask what meanings are. Coz I may be a snob, but I'm not cruel, and if someone asks what something means, I'd be glad to help.

And that's that.

~Ol

Brar · Post by **Brar** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:42 am

Shabanna wrote: Dwarven RP (with dialect and dwarven language) is both required and enforced

It is not a language, it is an accent. The same as if you take a resident of the united state speaking with a scottish. They both speaks english, but the scottish have a reall hard to understand accent.

For elves, it is using words that no one should be forced to look upon, it's really shunning people because they don't have the rp ooc background you expect of people, but who are you to expect anything of anyone?

I don't think Dalvyn stops to the four wwords described above, and more than that it's probably the whole 'If they don't like it those suckers have to do their own research, I took me time to do it so there is no reason they don't take time doing it.' attitude more than the words themselves.
It is really not newbie friendly and inclined to shun non-rp new players ,who could become good roleplayer with some help, away from the mud because peoples are not willing to help others learn about roleplay.

Now, my two cents about the initial topic (Elves and Magic), is that the elves are saying those things about themselves. In most novels and sourcebooks, when there is reference about elves 'special link' to magic it is made by elves about elves.
That's just another way for them to feel so superior to other races, something else in the extreme ego of the elven culture.

Sure they tends to become great mages, but why? becase they have a gift? then why 90% of the 'best' mages of Faerun are humans?

No, I think it is more likely a question of living span, elves have 400 years to learn magic, while 'normal' humans have less than 100. Almost all the humans who managed to have their lifespan expanded became at least if not more powerful than elves.

Elves civiliation is full of magic, hence the 'so called' gift of their children for magic, they are taught it since birth. But if you take an elf newborn and put him in a human small farming village, he does not devellop anything magic, he does not know about reverie or Arvandor. There was a novel featuring such an elf educated by humans peasants and he was just another pointy ear humanoid among non pointy ears humanoid (can't remember the name, and I'm not inclined to just read them all right now...)

For me, it is a question of education and civilization. After all, elven mother communicates with their children through telepatic before they are even born to teach them about reverie and Arvandor.

Brar

Saeruilen · Post by **Saeruilen** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:51 pm

Sure they tends to become great mages, but why? becase they have a gift? then why 90% of the 'best' mages of Faerun are humans?

I agree and disagree. 90% of the 'best' mages in Faerun are the featured mages in the books because they portray a link that readers can more readily understand...it gives the reader a point of reference, as well as saying something about the state of the human condition. When someone...anyone...can become as powerful as Khelben, it says something about the drive of humanity.

What we cannot fail to forget is that it was the ancient Eaerlanni Elves who gave magic to the humans (Netheril) after they migrated to Faerun in the first place. It was a sort of Promethius-type event (or you could look at it in a Star Trek type of mindset that it was the moment that Spock's father brought the humans star-reaching technology) that, also noting the human condition, eventually caused the downfall of that great empire.

Of course the Netherese abandoned the Eaerlanni magic when the discovered the nether scrolls, which were, you guess it, elven in origin (Aryvandaar).

Elves shared a special bond before the time of the Weave with great mythal magics the Netheril based their magic on; mythallar. Elven mythal, and to a lesser extent Netherese mythallar, magic encompassed entire cities and forests rather than just a building or a door way...or, in the case of the Netherese, a mountaintop.

Whether or not this helped or hurt the conversation, I don't know. Personally, I'd just as soon refer to the terms IC...if another elf doesn't know what I mean, it can be taken two ways:

1. They grew up outside of elven culture and may not know the terms, or
2. You can go OOC and explain it to them...it might hurt the RP in a minor way, but it may also enhance future RPs for that character.

When I'm in a RP with another elf, yeah, I'll use the terms and I'm not afraid to explain them OOC to another player. When I'm around humans and elves, I'll refer to other elves as "cousin." If I'm RPing with a group of humans, I'll keep away from the terms out of respect for the humans lack of...how shall we say...initiative to understand other cultures (elitist elf...gotta love it!

), but when I need to use an elven term, I'll use it...it can only make the RP better if my elf has to go out of his way to explain a term to a human...and both characters are the better for it.

So, in short, I believe the Elven snobbery around magic has to do with the fact that they gave magic to the humans...whether or not one or the other have "mastered" that art is something left up to the individual. Elves have longer to work with magic, so they tend to do more beautiful things with it...humans, on the other hand, have a shorter time to work with magic so their uses tend to be more functional.

EDIT: Mispelled terms.
SECOND EDIT: Misspelled "misspelled."

Dugald · Post by **Dugald** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:16 pm

About exactly one day after having magic given by the elves, the humans found the scrolls and created something 9230840293832094823842 times stronger than elven magic. One day.

Saeruilen · Post by **Saeruilen** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:24 pm

I disagree...it was more like 300 years. And whether or not it was more powerful...I'd be hesitant to say that it was. The mythal magic that exists to this day is still quite powerful many, many years after the fact. For instance, if it wasn't for an elven mythal spell, Waterdeep would have collapsed under its own weight into the Underdark many years ago.

I guess you could say that Netherese magic could be more powerful since it essentially had a "shut-off" switch (thus the falling of the floating cities all at once), but you could also look at it from the viewpoint that since mythal does not have the same kill-switch (other than the individual caster or someone of equal or greater power shutting it off), the gradual fading of that magic could be considered more powerful.

Eltsac · Post by **Eltsac** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:46 pm

Here is my thoughts on it :

The link elves could have with magic would be to me based on the elf's background and birth place, like some have a link with nature as animals.

For exemple, a man or woman born in the wilderness, who has grown and always be educated focusing on the interaction on the surrounding nature and animals, could develop, after young years spent in that environment, a link with nature and animals, for having spent a so long time among them, and having slowly learnt to understand nature more than anyone else could. This is not a gift, but a link build on the character background, place of birth and education, more like a 6th sense develop after long years (usually the youngest ones).

In the same ways, some elves, who are born in certain closed elven places, who base all their life on magic (not a city with good magic schools, but elves whose all single aspects of life turn around magic), could develop after long years of growing there a certain understanding of magic and thus what could call a certain link with magic.
But to me this link is only based on this background, it is not a birth gift.
The thing is, i don't see in FK any place that could allow an elf to grow in a magic oriented environment, and thus develop such an RP link (or for some special applications of elves born in exotic places).

It does not mean to me that some characters could not "pretend" to have that link, but simply it would not be based on anything.

That's just my thought on the link of Magic

Eltsac

Balek · Post by **Balek** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:46 pm

I suppose a great deal of the 'elven snob' attitude that bothers people is the following.

Non-Elf: I don't like it when people use 'elven' words. I'm GM elven, I should be able to understand those, but I don't know what they mean.

Elf: I don't care if you don't understand them. If you don't like it, tough. Either ignore them or ask me OOC so we can break RP for a few minutes while I explain to you, the lesser player, what these words mean.

Now, this might seem a little harsh, but it's essentially what I see just in this thread. Players express their displeasure with the unnecessary use of these words and the players who use them say, more or less, that they will continue to use them anyway because in their opinion, they 'enhance RP.'

Why are these words unnecessary? Because you can say them in normal english. Don't say N'Tel'Quessir, say Not-People. If a human hears that and is offended...good. That's probably the reaction they should have to being called not people. When they speak elven, they hear the elf say the elven equivalent of 'not people', so when that happens in game, the words on the screen should read 'not people' so that people who don't understand N'Tel'Quessir can react appropriately immediately, not after 5 minutes of OOC explanation that may never come.

As for dwarven accent being unintelligible, I have never seen anyone say anything anywhere close to the sentence referenced above. I have, in fact, been able to understand every word every dwarf has ever said to me. For my part, I replace 'right' with 'reet', 'yes' with 'aye', 'I' with 'Ah', and often drop h's and some other letters and add an apostrophe instead (among other small changes). I do not believe that my speech is unintelligible. If it is, then I beg of you to tell me so that I can change it. I can certainly understand how a non-native english speaker could have trouble with my accent. I speak a little bit of spanish, but if someone started changing the spelling of words that I know, I would be completely lost. So again, if a non-native english speaker has a problem with some of the words I use, please tell me and I'll stop using those words.

The key here, I think, is a willingness to change when what you do bothers people. I don't believe currently that my speech is too difficult to understand, but if it is, I'll change. Even if it's my favorite dwarven accent word, 'reet'

. I will not steadfastly cling to unnecessary things that bother other people. I hope that the rest of the game population will extend the same courtesy.

Meekir · Post by **Meekir** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:50 pm

My two cents. People use words I don't understand all the time, since I haven't, you know, memorized the dictionary, much less this fantasy world... But I have the magical internets and can look things up or ask. As a regional human I use one, maybe two "Calimshite" words, for flavor. I think this is reasonable and fun. I like the occassional elven &c. and appreciate it as long as people are courteous about it.

Courtesy... If somebody wants to play a French character in an RP game, I don't expect them to speak or understand real French. It would be a nice touch but it's not a requirement. I don't see how nice elven titles are any different from a nicely researched French last name - if someone speaks French IC, you tell them what it means because they "know". You don't start spouting real French at them, that's rude, it's what game mechanics are for.

As for elves being magicky, I'm willing to bet they bleed glitter. What more proof do you need? Lizards fly, man!

-----
"What is 'pour quoi?' Do, or not do? I wish I had spent as much time in the tongues as I had in fencing, dancing and bear-baiting. O, had I but followed the arts!" - 12th Night

Layna · Post by **Layna** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:10 pm

I honestly don't think we're going to find any sort of happy compromise between those that advocate the use of two of the most important phrases to an elf - namely N'Tel'Quessir and Tel'Quissir - and those who don't.

I think part of the problem is that while 'N'Tel'Quessir' literally translates as 'Not People' that's not really what it means. It's something far more complex and indefinable than that, and I honestly think that any elf - my own included - speaking Common would rather lapse back into their native tongue to use that phrase, rather than using a clumsy approximation that doesn't do it justice. And this is just as true of the players as it is of the characters. Deny it's use and you're left with a bunch of elves going all round the houses trying to explain it is they're trying to say and drawing blanks.

This doesn't mean I agree with people randomly spouting whole sentences in 'elven they've got from some translator on the web' - if you want to use elven use the 'speak elven' command

Maybe the best way to work it *is* to add a help file defining (as much as they can be defined) those two phrases...

(also - should we split this discussion off into a seperate thread?)

Dugald · Post by **Dugald** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:42 pm

Saeruilen - I know you know I was exaggerating, but my point is only this.

Elves are static. Their culture is, by human's standards, unnaturally rooted in tradition. Find a culture in the real world, that is the least changed you can think of from their ancestors - that culture moves forward much more quickly than nonsubculture elves (obviously there are exceptions).

Humans are dynamic. That's their strength in almost every fantasy setting. They're unnaturely (by demihuman standards) motivated and utility driven. This unnusual culture is commonly explained through short life spans and monetary driven goals. The culture reinforces, and even praises inventive and risk taking movements. You won't find many elven gamblers or elven wizards on the brink of magical breakthroughs - the pay off for them isn't worth the risk by their cultural standards.

Obviously, adventurering Elves are completely seperate from these stereotypes. They inherently break the molds of their culture just by their, seemingly to elves, irresponsible and childlike whims of adventure and danger.

But if solely speaking on a culture as a whole, if you aren't moving forward, you're moving backwards. The moment humans learned magic, their progression pushed them passed the elves...they took a /huge/ hit when Mystryl pulled the plug, but they still had magic, and they pushed forward again. Creating such magical cultures that came close to Netheril's height, and most those cultures ending up exploding themselves again through war and their stereotypical risk taking behavior. But they still hold onto all the breakthroughs they made, and build on them again (netheril is an exception because of how long ago they are in faerun written history and the fact the magic was based on wisdom granted by artifacts that have been gone for what? 20,000 years?)

I don't want to get too far on the downside of elven culture, because they have a ton of positives. Just like human culture has a ridiculous amount of downsides in the game. But when it comes solely to advancements in a field, any field, elves look like the Ahmish compared to common humans on faerun. That's not saying elves /can't/ come up with these advances, it isn't saying that they are too stupid to come up with the theories, it's just saying that they choose not to - for many different reasons.

And when people say things like playing a pointy earred human, to elven culture as a whole - adventuring elven PC's are! Their motivation is still different, but the actions they take are much more (good aligned) human than they are elven.

Please remember I'm speaking on the cultures as a whole - and not PC's who come from these cultures.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:24 pm

Balek - I agree 100% with you on this. Your post sums up my thought perfectly.

I think part of the problem is that while 'N'Tel'Quessir' literally translates as 'Not People' that's not really what it means. It's something far more complex and indefinable than that, and I honestly think that any elf - my own included - speaking Common would rather lapse back into their native tongue to use that phrase, rather than using a clumsy approximation that doesn't do it justice.

The translation of n'Tel'Quess in common, is "not-People", but it does not mean exactly what people think it means, when translated into common.

Humans not extremely well-versed in elven culture, (even if grandmastered in elven) might grow haughty, when an elf says "not-People", because it does not translate well from elven to common. The spirit of the meaning is lost in translation.

Humans well-versed in elven culture, would have a small knowledge of what it would mean. So, to them they would not call it "not-People", they would call it "n'Tel'Quess".

"You are digging up your own graves" - that's actually what I thought when I read this. (Not a thread, eh? Just pointing out that you are actually giving out more elements to feed the points I'm trying to bring across).

Three comments on those two quotes (don't feel singled out, several other players could have posted that).

Comment #1. The initial question of this post was something along the lines "Elf lovers say that elves have a special and intimate relation to magic... but what backs this claim? Nothing." And here we are at it again. Take a step back and consider the situation.

"Ah but we can't replace N'Tel'Quessir by Not-People because, you know... it means something more, something different, something that some might understand, and something that others might not understand. It's much more complex than just Not-People, you know... and it really does not translate well." And it can go on for paragraphs, and paragraphs, and paragraphs... without EVER saying what (the nine hells) it MEANS.

And there I get once again the same feeling as when I hear people talk about the special and intimate relation between elves and magic. "There is a special bound, you know... elves are magic... magic is elven... without magic, elves would die... without elves, magic would die... they are very closely linked" - that too can go on for paragraphs and paragraphs without every actually giving any real information.

Comment #2. Let's admit that actually N'Tel'Quessir cannot be translated by Not-People because it's - you know - soooooooooo complex. If it's so complex that even people who have researched elves extensively cannot say what it means... is it fair to expect that ALL the players who want their character to be GM in elven have done that research? Am I the only one seeing how inconsistent it is?

One one hand, we have "This word cannot be translated, because it means much more ... (snip, removed 47 paragraphs) ... so that's why we have to keep using N'Tel'Quessir to roleplay properly". On the other hand, we have "Oh, but if you don't know, just ask..." or even "Ah, but if you want to have the high honour of roleplaying with me, you'd better research all this on Google."

In other words, what makes it right to expect that people research this, if even those who have researched it extensively cannot explain what it means?

Comment #3. About the comment that "elves would not translate words like N'Tel'Quessir but would rather switch to their tongue and use the elven word". This comment mixes up IC and OOC levels. The player who types on his keyword is supposed to type what the character says in English. The *mud* then translates it into common or elven. If you think that this word cannot be translated to common, then you would have to go like this:

Code: Select all

speak common
say Yes, but you wouldn't know, because you are ...
smote pauses for a moment, then continues, in elven.
speak elven
say Not-People
speak common

Rhytania · Post by **Rhytania** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:22 pm

This is more for the roleplay aspect of the conversation, as the legitamcy portion doesnt really affect my chars so I dont have anything to contribute for that angle. Anyway being Bilingual, as many players here are, I know it gets pretty fustrating when me and my other bilingual friends lapse into what we call spanglish mode. Where we talk in a mixture adding in spanish and english words on the fly, for the older generation who still preserve the old traditions they frown on this as their english sometimes isnt strong, as do our english speaking friends who have no idea what is being said at times. I guess where im going with this is that rp and language is a two way street. if you are with people who enjoy it go for it, but for the sake of gameplay limit it when you are with others that may not be used to this form as either a) you could turn this person off from the rp or the mud itself, or b) you could interest the person enough to want to RP that way as well, to where theyll go and invest some time and research into it. either way just know who you RP with and give them the common courtesey of limiting the elitism out of it (though I personally dont really consider it elite, if not just a bit too extreme at times). Just some thoughts.

Layna · Post by **Layna** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:22 pm

So tell us we can't use the phrases and be done with it!

If those people playing elves (and I don't include myself in this because I haven't played mine since I clocked up enough kismet to be EVHUL) have a yes or no answer they'll work around it. And maybe that'll help foster better roleplayed relations between the races as the elves struggle to put into words, and even understand themselves, WHY certain races should be lumped under the heading of 'not people'.

In essence "N'Tel'Quessir" as far as *I* understand it means - everyone who isn't an elf, drow and elves who have been cut off from elven society. It doesn't mean they're 'not people' but more 'not of *the* people' - the people being the elves as one of the oldest living bunch of things yadda yadda etc etc. It means the people who don't get to share with each other in reverie, or toddle off to their special afterlife when they've popped their clogs. It's not the words people have problems understanding, it's the concept they can't wrap their non-elven minds around. Cause let's not forget that elves and their whole way of thinking are supposed to be very alien indeed.

As for elves and magic - I imagine it's more the time they have to master it and the fact they've probably been brought up around people who use it that make them have a 'gift' or whatever for it - much as those people brought up by musicians for example often turn out to be that way inclined.

Regarding elves and technology - the 'Complete Guide to Elves' (and I don't know how closely FK follows it) say that elves have developed pretty nifty artificial limbs (though they are kinda ashamed to use them...) so I wouldn't exactly say they "look like the Ahmish"

Still I agree their way of life is very steeped in tradition, not so much cause they're clinging to the past but because they live so damned long that's how they were raised!

In any case, I would say the phrases people are bickering about are used so infrequently, and are generally so widely recognised except by those very new to the setting, it shouldn't really be causing as much of an issue as it is!