Elves and magic

Dugald · Post by **Dugald** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:28 pm

I meant the ahmish line to be read comparatively, not literally. Elves, in general, don't invent - and are very slow to mix in the advancements of other cultures.

This includes magic.

Layna · Post by **Layna** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:43 pm

Dugald wrote:I meant the ahmish line to be read comparatively, not literally. Elves, in general, don't invent - and are very slow to mix in the advancements of other cultures.

This includes magic.

Yup I'll agree with that. The elves even withdrew from most of the realms cause they couldn't keep up with the changes humans were affecting.

As a side point, if FK is based on D&D, and Wizards of the Coast say, in black and white 'elves have a natural affinity for magic' - then why are we debating the point? Surely, if they - who created them - say it is so, it is so?

I will agree though that if Elves are slow to invent and advance then they might be falling behind slightly in the use of magic. That's not to say that if they *did* try the human way they wouldn't be better at it, but rather that they don't tend to bother... I don't think 'natural magical affinity' means 'OMG I pwnz j00 with my epic magic skillz' I think it means 'quick to learn and perhaps find things a little easier to master'.

Telk · Post by **Telk** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:50 pm

I'd agree with Eltsac's post. Elves have lived to learn in harmony with magic, they see magic in everything, and that it's a force as natural as the wind or water. This could be considered a special 'link' although as for any actual physical link, like elves make better spellcasters than humans, I don't think there is one. It's similar to how elves are tuned to the wilds.

Lerytha · Post by **Lerytha** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:17 pm

Okay. Firstly, I would like to apologise for the one word I know people will pick on immediately, in this next quotation. It comes from Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves, but alas, contains the word "believe". Nonetheless, I would like to say this: the matter of the elves' special connection to the Weave has always been shrouded in mystery - I think, to allow DMs the flexibility to change this idea.

It's all very well to say, "explain exactly what it is", but the fact is, that the resources available to us have been left rather vague, as it is. Anyway, first quote:

Why do the elves have such fascinating mental abilities? I believe
elven brains have a unique gland in them that allows
many of their less physical abilities. This gland draws magical
energy from the Weave and emits energy internally that
cloaks an elf’s brain and separates or shields the elf’s mind
from things that affect his body.

Yes, this quote contains the word "believe" but I do think that this is Wizards trying to tell the players what it is that makes the elves special in relation to the Weave, in a creative way, much like in other supplements they have characters explaining to a ruler, about the city. They often also use "believe", to show information to a D&D player in a different, and original fashion. So, that's my defence for the word "believe".

There are also various hints to this, but I believe in 3rd Edition, the "special link" is being toned down with "natural talent".

From Player's Handbook 3.5:

Wizardry comes naturally to elves

(though to be fair to other views, it is followed very shortly with "they claim to have invented it)

Other views to this will no doubt be: "Why?" And I cannot say I know the answer. But I don't ask about the biological reasons why a dryad is linked to her tree... so why should elves know why they are linked to the Weave, with the exception of that quote above, which may or may not be accepted by people here.

I think the authors of elven material left this idea deliberately vague, so that DMs can have the choice of including it. So, if the "DMs" of this game decide elves are not able to RP this special link, I am prepared to accept that. It is known however, that magic permeates elven society at every level. So, I shall continue to RP my elven character in the knowledge that at the very least, she comes from a race that has a natural affinity for magic and from a history of skilled wizards that have done great things (and horrible things, too).

As for the "special link", personally I believe I want to RP it, as it does seem to explain other abilities. Elsewhere in the Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves resource, it says that infravision is given to the elves as they are able to see the Weave itself, around them - though that is just a theory, and that is stressed a LOT more "oh, this is just a theory" than the instance of the gland in the elven brain. What about their immunity to sleep, hold, etc, magics? All is explained in Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves as the elves being able to "shut off" this lobe/gland thing in their brain, to prevent such magics taking hold.

It is not unreasonable to suggest that elves have a special link, with the various source materials that suggest it, also. No, they haven't given concrete information (except for the gland) as to why... but the elves can't be held responsible for the inability of the lowly humans, styling themselves "Wizards of the Coast". ( joke, before people believe I am being elitist

)

In relation to language: I'm growing less attached to Tel'Quess and n'Tel'Quess. Examining my own position more, I am prepared to accept that in the interests of equality, to those that do not have access to elven resources, I should stop using n'Tel'Quess in my speech.

PS: Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves is available on the Wizards of the Coast website, as an old download, if anyone wishes to explore its wonderful depths, in search of info.

Thanks for bearing with me.

~Ol - Champion of "the Gland"

Telk · Post by **Telk** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:52 pm

Lerytha wrote:it says that infravision is given to the elves as they are able to see the Weave itself, around them - though that is just a theory

I've also read about elves being able to see the weave around them, I don't know if it's for all elves, or certain elves, or whatever, and I've only run into one instance of it.

Saeruilen · Post by **Saeruilen** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:49 pm

Saeruilen - I know you know I was exaggerating, but my point is only this.

Elves are static. Their culture is, by human's standards, unnaturally rooted in tradition. Find a culture in the real world, that is the least changed you can think of from their ancestors - that culture moves forward much more quickly than nonsubculture elves (obviously there are exceptions).

Humans are dynamic. That's their strength in almost every fantasy setting. They're unnaturely (by demihuman standards) motivated and utility driven. This unnusual culture is commonly explained through short life spans and monetary driven goals. The culture reinforces, and even praises inventive and risk taking movements. You won't find many elven gamblers or elven wizards on the brink of magical breakthroughs - the pay off for them isn't worth the risk by their cultural standards.

Dugald: Yeah, I sort of realized you were using it as a metaphor for an elven perception of time, but the reiteration at the end of the phrase sort of made me reconsider my assumption.

As for the static/dynamic...I could not have said it better myself.

To go back on what I said before about lasting effects and advances made on the part of elves in relation to that magic, that ties in with the idea of the static/dynamic viewpoint. As for what magic is more powerful, it would be like comparing oranges and tangelos-- similiar, but definitely different.

Magic reflects their creator. Elven magic is a magic that is, for the most part, static and strengthed over time...much like the elven people. Human magic is dynamic and used for utilitarian purposes in the here and now...to say that one magic is more powerful than the other would be saying that a fireball is more powerfull than a hold person spell simply because it does the most damage right away. In reality, they are on par with each other...it is the uses of those spells that set them apart.

Essentially, arguing that one magic is more powerful than another is a moot point. As for claiming who "invented" magic...that's also a moot point. The writers were intentionally vague on topics like these so that DMs could run their games how they wished...without too much fuss from players.

The snobbery of elves is something inherent to the elves. That cannot be changed. What can be changed is the level that this mentality is used.

Not to splinter the conversation off too much, but the subraces all have different views of the subject of elves and humans and magic; sun elves believe whole heartedly that they are one with magic, are constantly studying magic in order to master it...a lifelong goal that may never occur. A sun elf item must be perfect and powerful in all ways (celestial armor, elven chainmail). Silver elves, on the other hand, understand the viewpoint of both humans and elves in relation to magic, so their creations tend to be simpler to make and more utilitarian (cloaks and boots of elvenkind)...they are also, essentially, more apt to mingle among humans and treat them with a sort of respect that just isn't common when a sun elf encounters a human.

As for how this would play out in RPing...I believe that is the choice of the individual. If you want to constantly refer to terms that the "non-people" won't understand, and too bad for them...fine. If you want to play a character that is a little more kind in their language for the sake of getting along with other people, use the terms but be ready to explain them...or go the route of just using terms that humans can understand.

Brar · Post by **Brar** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:51 pm

Saeruilen wrote:
Saeruilen - As for how this would play out in RPing...I believe that is the choice of the individual. If you want to constantly refer to terms that the "non-people" won't understand, and too bad for them...fine. If you want to play a character that is a little more kind in their language for the sake of getting along with other people, use the terms but be ready to explain them...or go the route of just using terms that humans can understand.

No one said you can't use elven word, but then do it like Dalvyn said, by using the code there is for it.

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:24 am

I think it's time to keep the topic on track with the original intent, to discuss the affinity of elves with magic, and give up on the elven RP debate. Base fact, no one is going to win the argument of whether it should be considered proper to use TelQuess and NTelQuess, other words withstanding.

Quite frankly, I'll take an "elf snob" playing here, over a pointy-eared human twink any day. No that's not targeted at anyone in particular, suffice to say they exist.

Fayona · Post by **Fayona** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:47 am

Dalvyn wrote: What explains/justifies/concretizes this "special and intimate link with magic?

I mean... I understand that "Pechs have a special and intimate link with rock and earth". The explanation/justification/concretization is that: they live in it, they can communicate with rocks and earth, they have direct links to the elemental plane of Earth, and so on. The claim is backed up by "concrete" things.

But what can back up the "intimate relation between elves and magic"? Elves have no special magical ability. They aren't better wizards or sorcerers than other races. They knew how to create mythals, but then again, they have thousands of years to study magic, and other races could use epic/so-called "10th level" spells before too (before Mystra-I ruled them out).

Alright, just throwing my two little cents. I am not saying that I agree that Elves have a link with magic greater than any other race just stating my views from what I have read thus far.

Dalvyn mentioned something earlier about Pechs living in dirt, hence why they are able to communicate with the earth and such. Maybe, people are seeing that elves have lived so long with magic they have gained a greater knowledge (not link) of it. Having such a long lifespan they have taken countless years of study and used it. Creating Evermeet, "Protected by ancient magics, the isle of the elves is shrouded in mystery, its location kept secret through a taming of the wild magic of the Realms of Faerun."

In my opinion, Dalvyn is 100% correct, Elves have no special magical ability, unless they choose to join one of the Magic Guilds or are faithful to The Goddess of Magics. They aren't better wizards or sorcerers than other races. Simply living longer than most, they may have gathered simply a better understanding of it.

Alright, I'm ready to be shot down and smushed under boots, for not making any since.

Isolrem · Post by **Isolrem** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:53 am

I like an earlier point that said elf-snobs in IC are not only acceptable, but even realistic or expected.
Many Elves may spit out some Elf words in common when speaking just to sound mighty and more People-ish.
Since the snobbishness is not OOC, I don't really think there are anyone who would respond "I'm sorry I don't know what that means but I think I should know" with "I would explain it to you and waste 5 minutes of everyone's time, or you could just find out for yourself". I am sure that if you can be polite in asking, many would gladly help you OOC, and carrying on with RP while otelling is not that difficult either. I don't think we need to shy away from seeking information OOC.

On the subject of Elven affinity with magic, I would like to bring up another one of the first things mentioned (but were passed over). This affinity was pretty much given in the earlier DnD rules, when the rules were updated (and Elves began to favor rangers more often than wizards/sorcerers) the game was only pushed a few years forward, should the Elves all change their thinking spontaneously at that point? At the last, they can claim in history they had the most affiliations with magic.

By the by, I'm not sure, but are there more Elven sorcerers? It does seem that sorcery is more of what you would call affinity with magic.

Lerytha · Post by **Lerytha** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:50 am

Nobody noticed the gland. I thought that would at least make for some discussion.

Fayona · Post by **Fayona** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:03 pm

Lerytha wrote:It is not unreasonable to suggest that elves have a special link, with the various source materials that suggest it, also. No, they haven't given concrete information (except for the gland) as to why... but the elves can't be held responsible for the inability of the lowly humans, styling themselves "Wizards of the Coast". ( joke, before people believe I am being elitist )

Utterly lost about the gland thing... *Wooosh* Right over my head. Sorry..

Lerytha · Post by **Lerytha** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:34 pm

Just to revive this thread, because I am still of the opinion that elves have a special connection to the Weave. Last time it got sidetracked by the language issue.

This time it won't.

Anyway:

Why do elves have a special connection to the Weave?

- elven brains have a unique gland in them that allows
many of their less physical abilities. This gland draws magical
energy from the Weave and emits energy internally that
cloaks an elf’s brain and separates or shields the elf’s mind
from things that affect his body.

(Already quoted earlier in this post... but no-one really noticed)

The above is the main argument for the physical elven connection. It is kept deliberately vague so as to go with the style of the resources Wizards often release. Studying other resources at that time, the writers often write it "IC" as it were, and so shroud what is really OOC knowledge in pretty IC instances, to make it more entertaining for the reader.

- Various mentions throughout supplements, countless to name, of elves having a natural aptitude for magic. Much like gnomes have a natural aptitude for illusion. Is magical aptitude the same as a special connection? I do not know, but that is how I RP my character.

- elven infravision said to be their ability to see the Weave itself, and so see the Weave around every single person.

- references to elves being like a fish out of water, if they are removed from the Weave.

GENERAL NOTE: I think part of the opposition to this idea, comes from the belief that elven RPers would seize upon this knowledge to belittle human mages, by claiming powers they do not have. My elven wizard might say that she has a special connection to the Weave, in response to an arrogant human whelp. But if that RP came to a PK, or a general discussion of power, it would give her no benefits. Queen Amarluil might be incredibly powerful, might have that special connection to the Weave, as well as being a favourite of the elven Gods, but if she fights Elminster, or Szass Tam that "special connection" ain't gonna do squat.

CONCLUSION: Yes, elves have that special connection. As a race, I would say it explains why they are constantly mentioned throughout resources as being incredibly skilled as a race with magic. But no. They gain no special benefits, other than being immune to sleep or hold spells, and gaining infravision, from that special connection.

Allow me to pose a different question: where does infravision, hold immunity come from?

Allow me to ask another one: does every player here know the exact biological reason behind various benefits to other races, or monsters? I would venture to say the answer is no. We are dealing with fantasy here, and the writers don't detail every single biological process (they did with dragons, in the Draconomicon, which I found amazing, though). So, why do we beat ourselves up about elves having that "special connection", asking for precise explanations to justify it, when we don't ask a player to try to justify any of their special race features.

I just feel that it's difficult for elven players to justify this "special connection" when Wizards have made it vague deliberately, to create a "feel" for the elves.

Any questions, please ask them. I don't like to see a discussion end, when the outcome is not yet decided. One final point: elves are blatantly magical creatures. They are not human. So it stands to reason that they are completely difficult physically, and magically. That's where High Magic comes from. How did a race develop such an alien and weird magic, so weird that human wizards cannot learn it, without a special connection?

*ends the post for now*

Dugald · Post by **Dugald** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:23 am

In DnD, and many other RPG lines, information that is given with an IC twist is done so to specifically not have to have that written in stone - while it is more entertaining to read, and an ST can choose for it to be fact, the ST can also choose for it to be false (without having to use rule 0); inherently making it noncanon. Same goes for novels - the metaplot advancement is explained in the sourcebooks.

From a purely objective perspective, where you can only take what is canon, elves certainly have an affinity for magic. It is shown mechanically. But in an IC situation, the only "proof" that elves have an affinity for magic, is that so many elves cast it.

That is the only IC proof. In any individual game, a character can delve further into why this is the case (or why trolls regenerate, or why beholders float without having the fly spell on them) and an ST may have to come up with a reason...and they could choose to use a narrative in a sourcebook, but that narrative could just as easily be false...plenty of narrative is.

So, in character in FK, unless an Imm/Admin says otherwise, there is no way to prove it, other than pointing at the 2390483209324902 elven casters. Which, btw, is way more than enough proof for any wizard with a head on his shoulders.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:27 am

Dugald wrote:In any individual game, a character can delve further into why this is the case (or why trolls regenerate, or why beholders float without having the fly spell on them) and an ST may have to come up with a reason...

My original question is not about "Why?" but rather "What does that mean?", or "What relation are you talking about?"

It's as if I was saying "I have something in common with saxophones." You would answer something like "Huh?" and still do not know anything more about me; you would know (or at least you would have been told) that "I" and "the saxophones" have something in common. But it does not mean anything: I bet that each and everyone of you has something in common with saxophones! It could be that your name starts with an S-, or that your name is also written in 9 letters, or that your name and "saxophones" both have a letter E in it.

"Having something in common with" or "sharing a particular relation with" does not mean anything in itself. It calls for a more precise explanation.

I'm fine with elves having a special gland wherever they want; but that is not the kind of answer I'm looking for.

So, in character in FK, unless an Imm/Admin says otherwise, there is no way to prove it, other than pointing at the 2390483209324902 elven casters. Which, btw, is way more than enough proof for any wizard with a head on his shoulders.

Fine with me. The fact that there are many wizards might have been a possible answer to my question. It would indeed "back up" the claim about the special relation.

But then gnomes have a special and intimate relation with magic (lots of illusionists, you know).

Oh, and kobolds have a special and intimate relation with magic (lots of sorcerers amongst them).

So... why say it for the elves and not for the gnomes and kobolds?

(Oh, and by the way... both I and the saxophone were created by parents born near Dinant in Belgium. That's the common aspect I was thinking of.)

Lerytha · Post by **Lerytha** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 10:07 am

Oh. So it's not why, it's what it means. Okay.

Well, what is kinda similar to why, but it means you have look at it with more of a "liberal" interpretation.

The "What" of the special connection is: the gland enabling them to sense the Weave around them; the way in which they cannot live without it; the High Magic they are famous for; the magical powers they have already. That is the "what" of the special connection.

But even that, I am aware, doesn't fully answer the question. But I think I remember reading that elves die without being in a place with magic. So: I envision the special connection as being a link between elves and the Weave.

In some respects, the "what" question, is far easier than the "why", but also far harder. i.e: the "why" has actually (now) got some (kinda) proof. But as for the what... it just hasn't ever been written down, as far as I can tell. So, for that reason we have to made educated guesses as to what it is.

So, closing your eyes and imagining you are an elf: I would imagine that the Weave can always be felt, moving through every living thing. The special connection is, in this educated guess therefore, a -sensing- of the Weave, an way in which you can look around and see it everywhere. I know that High Mages after centuries, gain a permanent "detect magic", effect, which I think is a heightened version of the elven connection. Whereas normal elves can see it around living things, and generally sense it... High Mages can actually see it more clearly.

And I'm aware this isn't really answering the "what" question. But I know it's there. But just not as... major... as many elves would have use believe.

My thoughts on what has really put me on the spot. I shall focus my searching on the "what".

~Ol

EDIT: What do elves have in common with the Weave? Well: Corellon is a god, and so his power kinda comes from the Weave (if I remember, Mystra can technically stop the powers of a god by stopping access to the Weave, which implies that Gods are linked to the Weave). At the very least, Corellon is a distinctly magical thing, being a God. At the beginning of time, in his battle with Gruumsh, his droplets of blood transformed into fully-grown elves. Now, this could be deemed as just elven mythology, but then... we're in a setting where the gods do most of what has been written. So, I would say that the elves "in-common" thing with the Weave (or at least magic) is that they were formed from the blood of one of the most magical things in the universe - a god.

I'm sure elves could play saxophones really well, too. They really have a special connection with saxophones.

Raona · Post by **Raona** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:45 pm

Darth "Spamcaster" Vader after firing a fireball upon an elven X-wing fighter, and missing:
"The Weave is strong in this one..."

Dugald · Post by **Dugald** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:49 pm

"So... why say it for the elves and not for the gnomes and kobolds? "

A gnomes favored class is bard - and a kobolds....i assume, because I can't find it, is rogue (i doubt it's sorceror though).

In 3rd edition, elves are the only common (phb) player race that has the favored class being a caster. That makes them special. Any time if you see a race that has it's favored class as being a wizard/sorceror, it suggests a connection to magic or a culture against physical work.

The proof of elves affinity to magic, is rumored in narratives throughout many sourcebooks covering every edition...but mechanically, it's the favored class that really backs that up.

Japcil · Post by **Japcil** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 5:36 pm

Ok I am not sure to much of what we are all trying to get out of this discussion. If its an advantage to playing an elf, well theres enough of them already. Hey you guys can grow your body parts back as it is. Now this MUD as stated in the getting started page states it is based in Forgotten Realms world. Ok lets focus on based. Since it is "based" not everything needs to be followed that Wizards comes out with. Lets say they decided Cyric made a move and took over the realms. Then Ao banished him blah blah Time of Trouble 2. But do you think becuase this happened in one of their books or campaign settings that we as a MUD are going to adopt it? Lets be real here, if we wanted to all follow the campaigns to the last drop well we'd all be playing tabletop.

Dugald · Post by **Dugald** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 6:18 pm

I think Dalvyn was just looking for a canon answer. He could just make up anything he wanted to, if he wasn't.

Elves and magic

Re: Elves and magic