Spell/Skill Increase system

[Isolrem]

This belongs in two other forums, so by default I moved it to General

I am not sure how skills improve to GM in the game, but it has been addressed in other forums that the current system has some flaws.
From my observation it seems to be based on the number of times a skill has been used, meaning that skills that does not require much usage (e.g. mounted polearms when your only lance broke and you could never find another one) will hardly ever increase in level. It also gives definitely advantage to combat/passive skills.

On a similar note, I am quite certain that the number of usages required to raise the skill/spell by one level increases on a logarithmic level, once to get from inept to amateur, 10000000 to get from master to GM.

I've seen on another game where each skill/spell has a timer attached, which may be, say, 2 hours. This means that the last time the skill increased, after two hours spent in the game, there is a fair chance that each usage of the skill/spell will increase the level again (say 20%), and with each subsequent 2 hours the chance increases by 20%, so that after ten hours you can hardly use the skill without improving.

While this may not be as realistic as the model of counting number of uses, it seems to work better.

[Charissa]

From my observation it seems to be based on the number of times a skill has been used, meaning that skills that does not require much usage (e.g. mounted polearms when your only lance broke and you could never find another one) will hardly ever increase in level. It also gives definitely advantage to combat/passive skills.

On a similar note, I am quite certain that the number of usages required to raise the skill/spell by one level increases on a logarithmic level, once to get from inept to amateur, 10000000 to get from master to GM.

With this, if you know the certain skill, such as (I will use your example,) “mounted pole arms when your only lance broke and you could never find another one,” You could always request permission from the builders to construct an area where there are “Rumored Infamous Fighters that are known for their great Mounted pole arms way of fighting”, who sell all different kinds of lances and have quests for such skills, ect. Not sure how far you could get with that one because there are a lot of To Do’s but hey, doesn’t hurt to ask, hmm?

As for the rest, GM it is not suppose to be so easy to learn. (Not saying you said that or anything just pointing it out ). I myself am not so sure how skills improve to GM, but I think if you roleplay with the skill enough you’ll get there. Could just be me, but I’m not seeing that it needs much of a change. Feel free to correct me.

[Kelemvor]

It might have been best to add your thoughts to the bottom of one of those other threads rather than start a new one as other players will miss out on a lot of useful debate that happened there.

Let me see if I can summarise a little about improving skills and such, apologies to those who will have seen this before on those other threads.

The number of successful uses of a skill or spell is the main factor, yes.

However, the number of uses required to pass a certain point on the scale (amateur, journeyman etc etc) depends on several other factors as well. Unsuccessful attempts can have an impact, certainly at lower levels. The most obvious contributing factor is how intelligent your character is. With combat skills the relative levls of yourself and your opponent will play a vital role. There are other factors and probably a random element also which make the whole process unclear.
(Which is deliberate, since we are a roleplay mud and constantly looking to see a skill percentage score or similar is not particularly deep )

Yes, the rate of increasing skills has reduced with these changes and it is no longer so easy to GM them. I sha'n't debate the pros and cons of that as (again ) it has been discussed in great detail in other threads.

I was intrigued by your alternative for discussion, though.
The idea that

"hey.. if you've spent ten hours at something you'll increase the skill level regardless of how far you are away from the actual mathematical point"

seemed both fair and daft at the same time.

I'll be interested to see what other players make of it, maybe that'll settle my own opinion

[Zach]

well if, each day, you play 10 hours.... at the end of the week... you'd have most of your skills GMed... tweekers galore... and no one would RP tell after they finish GMing all the skills....


but then again... if an hour is a day... and you spend 10 days ONLY doing one skill... you'd see some form of improvement...


What I would like to see is no need to GM a skill....

[Cyric]

Each skill / spell has a learn rate. Coders are constantly tweaking it in order to find optimal levels, but they are also working on other projects as well.

Basically, let's say second attack would have a learn rate of 3 Take that logrithmic calc you had, multiply the end number by 3, and you have , and you have your needed successes (I'm way oversimplfying things and giving incorrect numbers, but bear with me - it's just an example).

On the flip side, let's say you have something not so common, such as "make spring" or "create food". While RPly, you should only need to make these when you or someone gets hungry, it's hard to gain levels in them. Given the learn rate of 0.3, multiply the end number you came up with by 3/10, and you'll have a lower overall number for successes.

Now. The hard part. We have to keep things as RP here as possible. Why should you gain in, say, Pick Lock or Door Bash at a MUCH more accellerated rate than you do in Second Attack even if you are using Second a LOT more? We want to mix both the RP and the game balance as best as possible.

- We have considered a time stalling on the skills, and actually decided on a movement cost. A lot of skills take movement costs now, even your passive attacks.

The timer with lessened % of increase is alright, but I can see a lot of people idleing in order to reset their timer. I like the idea though, and see if we can adapt it =)

-Cyric

[Lathander]

The timer with lessened % of increase is alright, but I can see a lot of people idleing in order to reset their timer.

I see that as a very real concern.

Also, why should you gain skill in bash, parry, pick lock, etc. over time on the mud when you spent that time doing other things? Should your mining skill increase while your dwarf PC rps discussing events over many kegs of ale served at an Inn on the surface? [The "you" is generic and not directed at any particular dwarf]. Should someone spending their time in dialog with other PCs in the Square, even with great rp, receive the same battle skill levels as the ones who are out fighting the monsters? All of these questions have been raised before, none are new. You CAN rp and fight monsters at the same time.

[Dalvyn]

Not sure if you were citing those questions in a rhetorical way or if they actually describe what you think, but I couldn't help but answer!

Should someone spending their time in dialog with other PCs in the Square, even with great rp, receive the same battle skill levels as the ones who are out fighting the monsters?

Someone who spends their time in dialog with other PCs in the Square, especially with great rp, can receive experience if they are rewarded. Experience is used to level up and to train skills. And everybody seems to find that it's fine.

So... why not give skill points (i.e., increase in skills) too?

That would at least allow those who can only play 2 hours each day to devote that time to roleplaying, instead of having to go mob-bashing if they don't want to completely suck next time they are taken in a roleplay or go and explore with a group.

I'd even think that those who go solo mob-bashing should increase their skills, but the increase should be smaller than the possible increase for those who roleplay and are rewarded. Why? Because the mob-basher is playing a single player game. The other one is playing a multiplayer game and allowing others to have fun (i.e., he's working for the fun of more than just himself).

You CAN rp and fight monsters at the same time.

Yes, you can. Fighting monsters can actually be roleplay.

But the current system does not incite you to do that. The current system incites you to bash mobs (or fireball them, or ....). And the current code actually supports the idea that "roleplay while fighting is just a waste of time", simply because it slows down the skill improvement rate.

[Glim]

I think that any system that will help to gain skill points while being able to roleplay sounds very good, and I think that the system currently is also a good one. These two combined would both allow for those who want to work for their skill improvements and those who want to roleplay for them can do so depending upon how they feel that day.

I dont necessarily agree with the system in the above post as I believe it is too open for abuse, but I like the fact that there is a discussion for alternatives.

Now, I think honestly the reason people are trying to think of alternatives is that current skill progression is too slow, as it discourages people from even trying to gain their skills the current way as they dont seem to think there is any point to it and I feel that until there is a way to gain skills while roleplaying, that people shouldn't be discouraged from improving their character. This isnt a MUSH, where there is no code to back up anything. Roleplay is enforced and encouraged, but there are still things that are backed up by code. No one wants to be the same, there is always that ambition to be better and I dont think ambition should be discouraged until there is a better alternative.

Making something harder to do will just:

A. Discourage those who dont want to take the extra time needed to improve their character, making everyone's skills almost the same.

B. Make those who do have to do such repetative tasks for longer, and thus making them seem even more like all they do is train and never roleplay.

This might have been more of a rant and might have been a bit off subject on a few points. Forgive me if it is.
Feedback is always welcome
Thanks,

[Charissa]

After thinking about it for awhile, I agree with Glim, a system that would help to gain skill points while being able to roleplay, does sound very good.

Dalyvn mentioned a very good pro,

That would at least allow those who can only play 2 hours each day to devote that time to roleplaying, instead of having to go mob-bashing if they don't want to completely suck next time they are taken in a roleplay or go and explore with a group.

Also, as above stated when fighting mobs, you are able to roleplay so I do not think those who choose to roleplay AND fight mobs at the same time should not get the same rewards as those only roleplaying, unless of course there is some way to code that in as well. However, I am sure it will be hard to distinguish with a code who is rping and who is just fighting. It could be a really interesting idea, to see some sort of skill point system as Dalyvn mentioned. To, have some reasonable amount of hour’s roleplayed to gain a certain amount of skill points.

[Caelnai]

I've seen some recent on-the-spot RP awards and advancements by imms that I think are a wonderful! The are encouraging to RP, and are great to see. I also firmly agree that *no* skill or trade should be easy to GM...

However, as Glim said, this is a MUD, not a MUSH, and players who "go through the motions" of adventuring should also be rewarded. One of my PCs has been conscientiously RP practicing a trade on a regular basis for over a RL year...and is still an 'amateur'. Tweaking down usage advancements to levels that defy reason is discouraging to everyone. There must be a better way to punish code abuse?

[Dalvyn]

Trade advancement rates have not been modified.

As posted somewhere else (I forgot where), the only modification to advancement rate uses the opponent's level. For example, a level 50 fighter won't improve in hitall or fighting skills if he shoves rats or goblins in a room, but only against higher level targets. But that is not relevant for trades.

A good system would have, in my opinion, three sources of skill increase. Listed from the more effective down to the least effective, they would be: A - specific rewards; B - continuous improvement; and C - training.

(Some might have already seen that - I know I'm rambling, but I really find no fault to this particular idea and when I like - or dislike - something, I like to ramble about it again, and again, and again, and again...)

A - Specific rewards

They come in two kinds: reward from imms and reward from mortals. Imms can reward whenever they want (hey, they are gods after all), while players can only reward once per day - and then again, they cannot reward someone if they have already rewarded that account recently [to avoid OOC friends from building up two characters by having them reward each other constantly].

Rewards would bring in experience, kismet (as they do currently), plus skill points (or fractions of skill points, whatever). Those skill points could then be spent to increase skills (the player chooses what skill the skill point applies to). Restrictions might be in order there too, so that players don't put all their skill points in one skill, and ignore all the other skills (it would make no sense to have a GM amorsmith with all other skills at 0 with only 200 hours in game for example).

B - Continuous improvement

While being online, you'd gain skill points (or fractions of skill points). Constantly. Only by being online.

Obvious restrictions would be: you should not be idle. Another possible restriction would be: that applies only when your character is with another character in the same room.

By simply doing that (it could be roleplay, explore areas with a friend, even train along with another character, ...), that is, by interacting with another character (and making the mud more fun for several people, as opposed to selfish solo training which does not benefit anyone except you)... by doing that, you would improve. Once again, the skill points could be spent on whatever skills you choose.

Usual objection: "You don't become a good swordman by chatting on the Market Square.". My answer: True, but... in a mud that is flagged "Roleplay enforced", we would rather have the players interact and roleplay than solo train. My second answer: True, but... ICly, the character could be training and practicing while offline, most likely because the player does not want to waste his online time by spending it alone with mobs. My third answer: True, but... you don't have to be chatting in Market Square; you could be teaching or learning swordplay with another fighter, or you could be adventuring too and the continuous skill points would continue to trinkle.

C - Training

Yes, I guess that this option should still be there, for those downtimes when there aren't many players online, or for those times when you don't feel like interacting with others. (Though, honestly, if you don't feel like interacting, there are many single player games that are way better than FK).

Unlike A and B, training would not give out skill points that can be spent on any skill, but would directly modify the skill that is being practiced.

[Brar]

Eltsac and me really like Dalvyn's idea.
Another restriction on the continuous training, added to the 'more than one char in a room', would be at least a say/smote/whatever every so often, so it removes the 'idle with a friend issue' and (if you think it is necessary) training in limbo.

Brar

[Glim]

Trade advancement rates have not been modified.

As posted somewhere else (I forgot where), the only modification to advancement rate uses the opponent's level. For example, a level 50 fighter won't improve in hitall or fighting skills if he shoves rats or goblins in a room, but only against higher level targets. But that is not relevant for trades.

This, as I see it, is the same as slowing down advancement. Mainly for mid to high level characters, mainly because the ratio of high-level training accesable mobs in the game is much less than low-level training accesable mobs. What I mean by training accessable is that most higher level mobs in the game have IC consequences for killing (as do training mobs, but to a much lesser degree). As well as the strength of mobs does not seem to fit their level. This basically puts those who already had high level characters after the change into the "cant do anything about it" pile. Without solutions implemented, this still seems to be more of a problem than the solution that it seemed to be.

While new players that basically want to be able to advance their characters at all in the long run dont level them past a certain point, the older ones who have already done so must either:

A. Focus on the few mobiles that are high enough level if they want to advance their character.

B. Be discouraged and give up, waiting for their options to open up.

I do not think that limiting what a player can do to advance their character without implementing solutions beforehand is ever a good thing, as it affects everyone in the game.

A good system would have, in my opinion, three sources of skill increase. Listed from the more effective down to the least effective, they would be: A - specific rewards; B - continuous improvement; and C - training.

...

Usual objection: "You don't become a good swordman by chatting on the Market Square.". My answer: True, but... in a mud that is flagged "Roleplay enforced", we would rather have the players interact and roleplay than solo train. My second answer: True, but... ICly, the character could be training and practicing while offline, most likely because the player does not want to waste his online time by spending it alone with mobs. My third answer: True, but... you don't have to be chatting in Market Square; you could be teaching or learning swordplay with another fighter, or you could be adventuring too and the continuous skill points would continue to trinkle.

You said that training should give slower advancement than roleplay. I can see where you are coming from, in that roleplay should be better rewarded than "selfish" training. But why not make training and continuous advancement fairly equal? Making training less than the continuous advancement part would merely, in my opinion, punish those who are on at times with few players, or those who dont feel like interacting with others, moreso the ones who are in a time zone with few players. They CANNOT roleplay if there is no one around, it is not a choice they make, and I dont believe they should be punished for something that is not in their hands to prevent.

Something I really like is:

My third answer: True, but... you don't have to be chatting in Market Square; you could be teaching or learning swordplay with another fighter

And I think that if characters were given the option to actually roleplay training certain skills and those skills would be directly affected by this then it would give a more "realistic" experience?

In no way am I saying the system that Dalvyn proposed was a bad one, in fact, I like it very much. I merely disagree with the "weakening" of other areas in the game, as I believe it lessens how much players can enjoy the freedom of choice they are given on this game. Thats always been the appeal of RPGs to me, that you can be anything you want, do anything you want, work towards anything you want and you wont be prevented or hindered reaching your goal.

Edit: Just a suggestion, but perhaps this thread should be merged with this one: http://www.forgottenkingdoms.com/board/ ... php?t=5014 ?

Another rant again *sigh* So sorry >.<
Feedback is always welcome,
Thanks

[Brar]

or those who dont feel like interacting with others,

But if you don't feel like interacting with others...why are you playing a Multi User Dungeon ?
That seems odd for me...

moreso the ones who are in a time zone with few players. They CANNOT roleplay if there is no one around, it is not a choice they make, and I dont believe they should be punished for something that is not in their hands to prevent.

That's true, most of the time when we can connect with Eltsac, there is somethingn like 6 or 8 players online but it is usually not that hard to find them if you really want it. But it is also the time where you usually get more attention from the imm (as in they can watch you more) and it's very rare that there is no imm online at all (they are not humans, they are sleepless monsters!!!!),

Brar

[Layna]

But let's not forget there are characters who ICly cannot go trekking to Waterdeep or wherever the highest concentration of players is. And during the quiet times it's not uncommon for me to do a 'who' and find perhaps four people on line - maybe even as few as just one other person.

Though of course, they'd be ideal times to go off and do a bit of monster bashing anyway...

[Dalvyn]

1 - The system I suggest above is an ADDITION to what currently exists. So, all it can do is HELP people, it won't take anything from them.

2 - Not enough high level mobs. I do not really agree with this. There are several high level mob training areas. Of course, they might not work well for soloing but... is this avoidable? Think of it this way: what makes a mob high level? He's though to hit, or he hits more and makes more damage, or he's highly resistant to some things. Some will toast solo fighters, others will toast solo wizards, others will toast solo priests, and others will toast solo rogues. So, yes, you can't kill them solo... that's what high level mobs are about: they need combined skills to take. Think deeper level of Undermountain. Think School of Wonder. If those are not high level enough, I'm not sure what is

And, finally, if there still aren't enough high level training mobs... take a quill - erm, pen -, and some paper, and draw a map. Make up a nice history for the area, add in some adventure to be had, call it a quest, bring in some nice reward, and drop a mail to builders@forgottenkingdoms.com about a new area you'd like to build.

3 - You do not need a high concentration of players in the same room to start gaining the "interaction/continuous bonus"... and, recently, there has often been people in cities like Zhentil Keep and Westgate, which is good.

[Lerytha]

I love Dalvyn’s idea. I’ve heard people say: “But it’s not realistic that someone whose never adventured should reach a high level in skills”. But I wish to go against that view, very strongly. And whilst elves are at the moment not that popular I will use their example, because they are what I know well.

On Evermeet, some of the finest wizards (note, -some-) can be found. Most of these have never left the shores of that place, and they have never known the threat of war, etc. But despite this, they could match spell for spell, many human wizards. Queen Amarluil has not adventured at all (though she has seen some struggles) but she would give the Simbul a run for her money in a spell battle (though I admit the Simbul would probably win, before I get accused of elviphilia). At the same time, the blademasters of Evermeet are famed for their incredible skill and versatility with the blade. But have they seen as much battle as some mainlander adventurers? No. No way.

That is why I think having an alternative to adventuring, for gaining skilllevels, is a good idea, and I would go so far as to say it is not even unrealistic.

I have also come up with an idea to develop, add to, or whatever, this idea:

On my first mud I ever played, before this place (it was more like a MUSH), we had a two-tiered system. Code improvements would be OOC. Basically, you'd go bashing, etc, and gain levels, and spells (only because it was a Wheel of Time MUD, it was "weaves"). These would have IC meaning, slightly, if there was a PK situation, but generally most players ignored the code side and just kinda RPed, and went with it.

Basically, when we wanted to RP we would type “toggle IC”, and then any emotes/smotes would gain a certain amount of experience, so we could level up through roleplay, as well as by hack’n’slash.

This is not what I'd like to have on this MUD, I was just giving some background. But maybe this sort of idea could be adapted to the one discussed by Dalvyn?

My idea is as follows:

You are a wizard teaching an apprentice about how to cast magic missiles, and so both of you can type “toggle skill magic missile”. This would send an echo to the imms, so they could make sure that you are not on your own or abusing the skill. Then, as you RP, you would gain levels in that skill.

This could work with priests, too, or fighters, or anyone.

You are a fighter trying to teach a youngling how to be better at parrying attacks. So both of you type “toggle skill parry”. Maybe if you are just teaching them general combat, you could toggle different skills. Of course, the drawback to having many skills gaining experience, is that because you are not focusing on one skill, the increases would be slower.

What about the rarer, more powerful skills? Well, you could spend time with a powerful mage if it is a spell like gate, RPing discussions about how you cast it, etc. With a priest, and prayers of the high-levels, they could discuss dogma of the god, etc.

The only drawback I see, is, does the RP have to be intrinsically linked to the skill you have “toggled”? I’m not sure about that. Nor am I sure if this is even similar now, to the idea Dalvyn proposed. Personally, I love Dalvyn’s idea, and would champion it all the way! But maybe this way, which enables more control of abuse by imms, and more focused control of what skills to “improve”, might make more consensus? Or less, I don’t know.

I just thought I would suggest it.

So to summarise:

- Creation of “toggle skill skillname” command to be used in conjunction with another character, to gain levels in the skill selected.

- More than one skill can be “toggled” at one time, but amount of skill gained would decrease.

Hope something there made sense.

~Ol

[Caelnai]

That's true, most of the time when we can connect with Eltsac, there is somethingn like 6 or 8 players online but it is usually not that hard to find them if you really want it. But it is also the time where you usually get more attention from the imm (as in they can watch you more) and it's very rare that there is no imm online at all (they are not humans, they are sleepless monsters!!!!),

Sir, I strongly object to you referring to our Goodly Dieties as "monsters"!! Now Cyric, on the other hand...

Seriously though, I have to say that I've heard this argument before, and it sure sounds great...but I'm just not sure it really works out in practice. Certainly, I've seen some strong counter-examples in my time here. (Please take this in the vein intended; not to whine about specific PCs, just to point out the situation for some who are off the mainstream.)

For example, I have a brand new PC who resides in a major city, has been logging on prime time (due to my recent schedule change,) and has already been involved with several major RPs (with much wonderful imm interaction! Yea!) But my much-older primary, who avoided cities, was primarily logged in off-time (due to my old work schedule,) and RPed the wilderness char she was supposed to be, had little. She had some great interaction with people logged on at those times but was never included major imm-run RP, even those that involved her home, because the "organising" took place in Waterdeep. Given how long it took to have her classed, faithed, or a nasty bug fixed on her, I shudder to think of the time needed to await someone to grant skill advancement. And lets not even bring up the drow...

Imm's time is very valuable and it makes sense that they should be where the majority of the PCs are, but not every PC should or can RP there. Nor I think, do we want to discourage off-mainstream play as it adds to the diversity of the Realms and is fun! This is a MUD, therefore there should be code-based advancement for PCs. I believe this especially goes for trades, as the action of doing the trade (or teaching it to someone else) is often RP in itself.

The RP advancement has been proposed as an ADDITION to code gain, but the code levels might deserve a second glance as well, since that seems to be the catalyst for many of these threads. Trade skill-levels have been an issue, leading to opening certain trades up to more races. However, I'm not sure that has remedied the situation as it's the level, not the availability, that seems to be the issue.

[Dalvyn]

Sorry, but I do not get it. Let me know if I interpret what you say differently from what you mean.

1 - Major roleplays are organized in cities, because that's where most PCs gather and where they IC choose to gather. You want to be involved? Simple ... go there. You want to roleplay someone who NEVER enters cities? Then use tell to communicate, or give up on those roleplays that are ICly organized in cities. You just cannot have both.

Extreme example, but similar to how I interpret what you say:

I roleplay a follower of Talona who spends his life with rats and other disease-carriers in the sewers. He never leaves the sewers. He never talks with anyone.

Fine for you... but what does it bring to the mud as a whole? Does it generate roleplay? No, not if this character never meets anyone. Is he included in roleplays? No, not if this character never leaves the sewers.

2 - Characters would not be required to be in a place of extreme activity to gain the continual advancement. The condition I cited above is: having ONE other PC in the same room and somehow interacting. That is possible for all characters... Even rangers can spend some time in the cities (and roleplay that they don't like it and spend their offline time in the wilderness), because this is a MULTIPLAYER game. And only by interacting with others (= at least one other character) do you bring something to the game.

What I mean is that your lone ranger will gain continual advancement as soon as she is with another character in a room. And that is not hard. There have been rangers, druids, and other nature-oriented characters in the wilderness areas (Ardeep before it was infested by demons, the wilderness camp, and so on). Finding someone there is far far from impossible. Perhaps not as easy as in Waterdeep (though WD is often empty too), but only barely less easy than there. And if you don't find anyone? Just go shopping in Waterdeep or something. Or send a tell.

The "I cannot find anyone else to roleplay with" might have been valid at some point. But now, we have evils, we have druids and rangers, we have people in Westgate, we have people in Zhentil Keep, more often than not. And if there's nobody, you can even send a tell to anyone online!

(As for the drow, I have always clearly stated my opinion that we don't have a large enough player base to support drow. The option is still there because some seem to enjoy only drow, but that is not something that we can support currently in my opinion).

[Caelnai]

Dalvyn, I believe nearly everyone has reacted positively to your ideas on rewarding RP. I say again; systems for rewarding RP are a great idea! However, an additional concern is that a PC can spend hundreds of hours to RP a trade, and see little advancement from it currently. That, in my mind, is a deviation from the coding support a MUD should have.

And honestly, I'm not sure I see how creating a fictional quote that is very far from anyone's actual statements (the straw man approach) facilitates the discussion. This is a discussion, correct?