Okay. Another question.
Often, there are only three mages online, if that. Are magefairs still able to be set up? (I understand imm-time is limited with other RP at the moment, so this question is more long-term) That would allow a mage "hero" to be chosen for each alignment. Because I'm sure most mages would attend a magefair.
*shrugs*
Percieved favouritism - Part I "high priests"
Hmm... I would also like to just say... in the days when there was a High Mage in Zhentil Keep, I thought it still added to RP. No, you might not agree with it, but it is still a High Mage and it just means that she is in a position of respect.
I always liked the idea that although that evil mage might be High Mage today, there would come a time when a good mage would win the title, and vice versa.
Yes, players can still set up the RP, and if that's what we have to do, I'll try and set something up. But it's still nice to see the white title, "High Mage" and know that the person you are talking to, evil or not, is the leader of your guild.
It makes for interesting RP, in my opinion. Any chance that such systems could be re-instated, or would they take far too much immortal time?
~Ol
PS: Not a whine, just a question. If it's not feasible, that is perfectly understandable. Its just I miss those little white titles. They weren't favouritism, they were something to work towards.
I always liked the idea that although that evil mage might be High Mage today, there would come a time when a good mage would win the title, and vice versa.
Yes, players can still set up the RP, and if that's what we have to do, I'll try and set something up. But it's still nice to see the white title, "High Mage" and know that the person you are talking to, evil or not, is the leader of your guild.
It makes for interesting RP, in my opinion. Any chance that such systems could be re-instated, or would they take far too much immortal time?
~Ol
PS: Not a whine, just a question. If it's not feasible, that is perfectly understandable. Its just I miss those little white titles. They weren't favouritism, they were something to work towards.
If you have knowledge, let others light their candles with it.
--Sir Winston Churchill
"This place is boring, I'm gonna go eat whatever I can find laying on the ground"
-- Hoildric
Cacie asks Larethiel 'Did that air just bow to you?
--Sir Winston Churchill
"This place is boring, I'm gonna go eat whatever I can find laying on the ground"
-- Hoildric
Cacie asks Larethiel 'Did that air just bow to you?
3 Questions:Dalvyn wrote:There's a thread where players can announce roleplays they want to set up. I'd think that, given enough forewarning, all mage players who are interested in taking part in the designation of a High Mage would attend such an event.
1. Doesn't the previous high ___ have to resign first? I'm not sure how many of them have active heroes, but wouldn't that be hard/impossible for those who don't?
2. Would the actual mage fair area be opened for such an event?
3. Would a set number of wizards be required to "sign up" for said area to be opened?
-
Dalvyn
- Sword Grand Master
- Posts: 4708
- Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 9:26 pm
- Location: House of Wonder, Waterdeep
1 - The previous High Thingy's opinion might not matter that much. If all the invokers (of a geographical area/alignment/race/whatever) are given the opportunity to gather and decide upon who is to be named Big Bad Warwizard, then they can bestow the title upon whoever they want.
The thing here is that the title in itself means nothing. What matters is whether or not people respect this title/this position. "I am the Big Bad Warwizard" does not mean anything if it's not backed up. If other invokers recognize you the right to use this title, then you ARE the Big Bad Warwizard. Otherwise, you can claim that you are, but you aren't actually.
A title can be associated with some power or not, can indicate respect or deference, or anything else. For example, the invokers might decide that the Big Bad Warwizard's decisions are to be followed as the laws, and that invokers who break those rules are to be hunted and punished. That gives the Big Bad Warwizard some power. Of course, if the Big Bad Warwizard takes bad decisions and finds that nobody wants to enforce those decisions, then he will most likely not keep the title for long. Invokers will call for a new gathering and choose another Big Bad Warwizard.
Alternatively, the title can just mean nothing. "Yeah, he's the Big Bad Warwizard. That's what we decided during our last gathering. He has no power, nothing though... he's just the Big Bad Warwizard." What it actaully means is up to the invokers (and not really up to the invoker who has been chosen to be the Big Bad Warwizard).
It's all IC. The title would just be an IC title, nothing coded. Unless you manage to convince a coder to add some support for it.
2/3 - The Magefair area is old and not up to date. It would need to be revised before it is opened for something like that.
The thing here is that the title in itself means nothing. What matters is whether or not people respect this title/this position. "I am the Big Bad Warwizard" does not mean anything if it's not backed up. If other invokers recognize you the right to use this title, then you ARE the Big Bad Warwizard. Otherwise, you can claim that you are, but you aren't actually.
A title can be associated with some power or not, can indicate respect or deference, or anything else. For example, the invokers might decide that the Big Bad Warwizard's decisions are to be followed as the laws, and that invokers who break those rules are to be hunted and punished. That gives the Big Bad Warwizard some power. Of course, if the Big Bad Warwizard takes bad decisions and finds that nobody wants to enforce those decisions, then he will most likely not keep the title for long. Invokers will call for a new gathering and choose another Big Bad Warwizard.
Alternatively, the title can just mean nothing. "Yeah, he's the Big Bad Warwizard. That's what we decided during our last gathering. He has no power, nothing though... he's just the Big Bad Warwizard." What it actaully means is up to the invokers (and not really up to the invoker who has been chosen to be the Big Bad Warwizard).
It's all IC. The title would just be an IC title, nothing coded. Unless you manage to convince a coder to add some support for it.
2/3 - The Magefair area is old and not up to date. It would need to be revised before it is opened for something like that.
*blink*
I didn't even bother reading this whole thread. Mostly cause I wanted to give my unbiased opinion upon the subject of Favortism. I am fairly new to the scene, and only starting to understand how some of the IMM's work and their viewpoints, as well as the view points of the players of some of the high end characters and their characters. Sooooooooooo, I figure I'm pretty fresh to the arguement. I haven't been held up as a good child, and I haven't been whipped for being bad either.
As far as I can tell, the arguement is that the faith managers are more favored because their names turn up white on the Who command.
*blink*
Is that why people's names turn white? Oh. Well, I thought that was my Zmud doing something odd, so neat. It had a purpose. Amazing. Well, now that I know what it did, that makes more sense, sort of.
I do not think that changing a code to give people white names, or letting them have extra levels is going to change the perception of favortism. Favortism is something that has no code related fix. You can take things away, divide positions, but the fact of the matter remains that those who are better at playing their faithed characters are going to have the appearance of being favored. It is the idea that they are the conduit of their God and sooooo mayb ethey spend more time talkign to that IMM. At least, that would be the obvious idea, wouldn't it?
I think that SOME of the faith managers in the past or the present have rubbed a few the wrong way. IC or OOCLy it doesnt' really matter, the fact of the matter is that they rubbed the person they were talking to the wrong way, and ever since then, that player has not trusted that faith manager. So they scream bloody murder.
It also doesn't help that there is no way to really know how the IMM's pick their faith managers. I just assumed the Gods like to lurk around until they find someone they like for the position within the faith and just did it IC. I could be wrong, but I never assumed it was a possition you could get from any thing but good RP.
Same thing with guild leaders, and so forth. I always assumed that they were things you kinda had to throw an occly note saying, "I'd totally do this if it came up." and then just waited for the rainy day.
I think, if you are the leader of a faith, or guild, you should get perks. You should get a holy artifact, you should get some toys. It's fair. You do dirty work for an IMM that may or may not be around constantly. In my own case, I think Bugoron and Lunette bust their hind ends, taking a great deal of flack both IC and OOCly from people for playing their characters the way they should. And they do so at a handicap from what I understand. I have NO problem with them carrying around extra toys or being a ridiculous level of character. Why? Cause they are not abusing that right. They use it for "good" rather than for "evil". I have never seen them just cruise into town ready to pick a fight with the first Plain clothed person they meet. They spend more time role playing than they do anything else. (Correct me if I am wrong!)
And I do believe that if you are a high ranked member of a faith or a guild, you should get something to signify that you are a good person to talk to for reaching level 50 to us newpeople. Like some sort of commemorative badge saying, "10 Years of active faith to Selune." or something, even if you are not the faith manager. That way us new souls know who else besides the faith mangers to go to for discussions on m aybe we should join ranks.
Same goes with the guilds.
The faith managers are GREAT people to talk to, but they are not the only ones. They do have other things to do a lot of times, and as much fun as it is to see Gwain sitting in the square, he does have a personal life ICly. Or at least, a perceived one where he does like seeing his house. (pun not intended.) So finding another Kelemvorite, for example, who carries one of these symbols would be a great way to know that they at least can give you the basic speech. And maybe the faith managers can help those people, and make sure the party line is secured down the rows of faith.
And the guilds, same thing. I can't get too specific cause I do not have a merchant or anything like that, but I assume they work simularly to the faith positions. The Leader of the guild should get twinkies, and the higher rank members of the guild should get minor twinkies.
But that's just an idea.
Favoritsm or the percieved aspect of it is going to be seen regardless. There is nothing you can do about it. There are just some characters/players who are really really really really really good at what they do and make the most impossible things seem really easy. And that is always going to scream of someone giving them abilities that most of us do not hav eaccess to. It's not true, but that's the way the human mind works. Sometimes, it's not very rational.
I didn't even bother reading this whole thread. Mostly cause I wanted to give my unbiased opinion upon the subject of Favortism. I am fairly new to the scene, and only starting to understand how some of the IMM's work and their viewpoints, as well as the view points of the players of some of the high end characters and their characters. Sooooooooooo, I figure I'm pretty fresh to the arguement. I haven't been held up as a good child, and I haven't been whipped for being bad either.
As far as I can tell, the arguement is that the faith managers are more favored because their names turn up white on the Who command.
*blink*
Is that why people's names turn white? Oh. Well, I thought that was my Zmud doing something odd, so neat. It had a purpose. Amazing. Well, now that I know what it did, that makes more sense, sort of.
I do not think that changing a code to give people white names, or letting them have extra levels is going to change the perception of favortism. Favortism is something that has no code related fix. You can take things away, divide positions, but the fact of the matter remains that those who are better at playing their faithed characters are going to have the appearance of being favored. It is the idea that they are the conduit of their God and sooooo mayb ethey spend more time talkign to that IMM. At least, that would be the obvious idea, wouldn't it?
I think that SOME of the faith managers in the past or the present have rubbed a few the wrong way. IC or OOCLy it doesnt' really matter, the fact of the matter is that they rubbed the person they were talking to the wrong way, and ever since then, that player has not trusted that faith manager. So they scream bloody murder.
It also doesn't help that there is no way to really know how the IMM's pick their faith managers. I just assumed the Gods like to lurk around until they find someone they like for the position within the faith and just did it IC. I could be wrong, but I never assumed it was a possition you could get from any thing but good RP.
Same thing with guild leaders, and so forth. I always assumed that they were things you kinda had to throw an occly note saying, "I'd totally do this if it came up." and then just waited for the rainy day.
I think, if you are the leader of a faith, or guild, you should get perks. You should get a holy artifact, you should get some toys. It's fair. You do dirty work for an IMM that may or may not be around constantly. In my own case, I think Bugoron and Lunette bust their hind ends, taking a great deal of flack both IC and OOCly from people for playing their characters the way they should. And they do so at a handicap from what I understand. I have NO problem with them carrying around extra toys or being a ridiculous level of character. Why? Cause they are not abusing that right. They use it for "good" rather than for "evil". I have never seen them just cruise into town ready to pick a fight with the first Plain clothed person they meet. They spend more time role playing than they do anything else. (Correct me if I am wrong!)
And I do believe that if you are a high ranked member of a faith or a guild, you should get something to signify that you are a good person to talk to for reaching level 50 to us newpeople. Like some sort of commemorative badge saying, "10 Years of active faith to Selune." or something, even if you are not the faith manager. That way us new souls know who else besides the faith mangers to go to for discussions on m aybe we should join ranks.
Same goes with the guilds.
The faith managers are GREAT people to talk to, but they are not the only ones. They do have other things to do a lot of times, and as much fun as it is to see Gwain sitting in the square, he does have a personal life ICly. Or at least, a perceived one where he does like seeing his house. (pun not intended.) So finding another Kelemvorite, for example, who carries one of these symbols would be a great way to know that they at least can give you the basic speech. And maybe the faith managers can help those people, and make sure the party line is secured down the rows of faith.
And the guilds, same thing. I can't get too specific cause I do not have a merchant or anything like that, but I assume they work simularly to the faith positions. The Leader of the guild should get twinkies, and the higher rank members of the guild should get minor twinkies.
But that's just an idea.
Favoritsm or the percieved aspect of it is going to be seen regardless. There is nothing you can do about it. There are just some characters/players who are really really really really really good at what they do and make the most impossible things seem really easy. And that is always going to scream of someone giving them abilities that most of us do not hav eaccess to. It's not true, but that's the way the human mind works. Sometimes, it's not very rational.
Confusion heard his voice, and wild uproar Stood ruled, stood vast infinitude confined;
Till at his second bidding darkness fled, Light shone, and order from disorder sprung.
--John Milton
Till at his second bidding darkness fled, Light shone, and order from disorder sprung.
--John Milton
Well, in the faith, you have faith ranks.
Acolyte, Prelate, Inner Circle, etc.
Maybe something like this could be implemented for guilds, maybe? So, the High Mage for instance, could name an Inner Circle? And, for example, perhaps the Inner Circle must (through some mage tradition) be of varying alignments.
The same could happen for bards. One High Bard, and a few in the Inner Circle.
*shrugs*
That way, you gain some achievements even at the higher levels, and actually gain some IC "rank".
Acolyte, Prelate, Inner Circle, etc.
Maybe something like this could be implemented for guilds, maybe? So, the High Mage for instance, could name an Inner Circle? And, for example, perhaps the Inner Circle must (through some mage tradition) be of varying alignments.
The same could happen for bards. One High Bard, and a few in the Inner Circle.
*shrugs*
That way, you gain some achievements even at the higher levels, and actually gain some IC "rank".
If you have knowledge, let others light their candles with it.
--Sir Winston Churchill
"This place is boring, I'm gonna go eat whatever I can find laying on the ground"
-- Hoildric
Cacie asks Larethiel 'Did that air just bow to you?
--Sir Winston Churchill
"This place is boring, I'm gonna go eat whatever I can find laying on the ground"
-- Hoildric
Cacie asks Larethiel 'Did that air just bow to you?
-
Zach
Mariela, I’d kiss you if you were here.... or at least hug you... or say "good job" or... yeah... you get the point
you brought up some good points... first off... there is ALWAYS favoritism in life... that’s the way it is... it's human nature... we, most of the time, can't help it. We CAN put a council of people to counteract each others biased favoritism.
Gaining an extra 51st level after a long, non tweaking rise up to it. Rise, not only in level, but favor with your deity is VERY hard. An extra level, so what, it’s ONE level… you’ve made it 49 levels, one more, is not all that much. A white name in the who list is there to only HELP others… not to say “hey I’m better then you”. The game is about Rping… you can’t “beat” this game so please. just have fun
I have to admit, when I created Maybel I told someone OOC that I was going to apply for Tyr, because I have yet to see a Tyrite, and he said it was quite hard. So I struggled and it took a long wait time due to some FM’s that are not so active. I stuck with it and I was faithed.
I was not very popular but people were coming to ME for questions about the faith and the Triad. The more people asked me. The more I learned and found out about the faith of Tyr. I have to say, I am not the best learned in the arts of FK or the FR. Nor have I ever read a book other then LOTR but I am quite high in my faith (not bragging) not because of this “favoritism” but because of the dedication I put into it… If I was the subject to this biased favoritism then I would not have been punished in the past for RP that I did or for OOC stupid things I forgot or didn’t realize… but I took it, Rped with it…. and HAD FUN.
Do I think I’ll be a FM… I don’t know… but I didn’t make her nor do I play her with that in mind. I play her with FUN in mind. If they tell me I’ll never be an FM… that’s alright… because I’m still going to have fun! Sure I might complain to some people about some things that happen… but you know what… that’s because our chars can’t complain IC because “That’s not IC for them to do”, so we take it OOC a bit… but it doesn’t ruin our IC gaming
*takes a deep breath...* umm... lost my track of thought but I got most of it... it's just my opion and my fingers are going to fall off now
you brought up some good points... first off... there is ALWAYS favoritism in life... that’s the way it is... it's human nature... we, most of the time, can't help it. We CAN put a council of people to counteract each others biased favoritism.
Gaining an extra 51st level after a long, non tweaking rise up to it. Rise, not only in level, but favor with your deity is VERY hard. An extra level, so what, it’s ONE level… you’ve made it 49 levels, one more, is not all that much. A white name in the who list is there to only HELP others… not to say “hey I’m better then you”. The game is about Rping… you can’t “beat” this game so please. just have fun
I have to admit, when I created Maybel I told someone OOC that I was going to apply for Tyr, because I have yet to see a Tyrite, and he said it was quite hard. So I struggled and it took a long wait time due to some FM’s that are not so active. I stuck with it and I was faithed.
I was not very popular but people were coming to ME for questions about the faith and the Triad. The more people asked me. The more I learned and found out about the faith of Tyr. I have to say, I am not the best learned in the arts of FK or the FR. Nor have I ever read a book other then LOTR but I am quite high in my faith (not bragging) not because of this “favoritism” but because of the dedication I put into it… If I was the subject to this biased favoritism then I would not have been punished in the past for RP that I did or for OOC stupid things I forgot or didn’t realize… but I took it, Rped with it…. and HAD FUN.
Do I think I’ll be a FM… I don’t know… but I didn’t make her nor do I play her with that in mind. I play her with FUN in mind. If they tell me I’ll never be an FM… that’s alright… because I’m still going to have fun! Sure I might complain to some people about some things that happen… but you know what… that’s because our chars can’t complain IC because “That’s not IC for them to do”, so we take it OOC a bit… but it doesn’t ruin our IC gaming
*takes a deep breath...* umm... lost my track of thought but I got most of it... it's just my opion and my fingers are going to fall off now
Hi! :) I don't mean to be rude but.. this thread is old, and before the system even came in. People discussed it, and no one really opposed it. There was a lot of good input and constructive feedback. So really I guess my big comment that will make people think I'm evil is this :
You didn't pipe up when people were losing these things, why do you pipe up now when you strive for it?
I personally never looked at losing white who infos or levels on any of my characters as "losing" them, I never held on to those things with lock and key and am happy to see other people have opportunities. That's the truth. Though what I do not like is ICly how it's treated as though people who "lost" the white who info were "bumped" as I have seen icly of two characters. (No, not both mine). This is neither here nor there, I'm just trying to make it clear that I don't ask that question out of bitterness or whatever finger would be pointed.
Why is a white whoinfo an achievement to strive for on a mage? What's wrong with applying for a spell(I've always been jealous that wizards can do this - so wanted to for my bard, it's pretty special.)? That's definately something unique and much more credited icly than a white who info. What about building a guild that is your guild icly? Some of the best guilds IC are the ones that are built by players, and the characters ICly RP it and interact about it, and again, is much more credited icly than a white who info. There are so many guild halls ICly that I can't really see the white whoinfo meaning you have any sway over mages/invokers/blahblahblah, as they very well could not be from the guild you are ICly. Enter the need to disreguard that white who info. With a guild you built, and you "run" you'll get much more roleplay IC than just having the who list be white next to your name.
I don't know. Just my opinion. And not meant to be a direct bash to Ol at all all all. :)
-D
(Oh, and thank you, Mariela, for the compliments. :) )
You didn't pipe up when people were losing these things, why do you pipe up now when you strive for it?
I personally never looked at losing white who infos or levels on any of my characters as "losing" them, I never held on to those things with lock and key and am happy to see other people have opportunities. That's the truth. Though what I do not like is ICly how it's treated as though people who "lost" the white who info were "bumped" as I have seen icly of two characters. (No, not both mine). This is neither here nor there, I'm just trying to make it clear that I don't ask that question out of bitterness or whatever finger would be pointed.
Why is a white whoinfo an achievement to strive for on a mage? What's wrong with applying for a spell(I've always been jealous that wizards can do this - so wanted to for my bard, it's pretty special.)? That's definately something unique and much more credited icly than a white who info. What about building a guild that is your guild icly? Some of the best guilds IC are the ones that are built by players, and the characters ICly RP it and interact about it, and again, is much more credited icly than a white who info. There are so many guild halls ICly that I can't really see the white whoinfo meaning you have any sway over mages/invokers/blahblahblah, as they very well could not be from the guild you are ICly. Enter the need to disreguard that white who info. With a guild you built, and you "run" you'll get much more roleplay IC than just having the who list be white next to your name.
I don't know. Just my opinion. And not meant to be a direct bash to Ol at all all all. :)
-D
(Oh, and thank you, Mariela, for the compliments. :) )
Beshaba potatoes.
No offence taken, Mele.
I didn't speak up at this point, largely because I wasn't present at the IRC meeting, and so I assumed the actions taken here were for the better. Which maybe they were. But also, I didn't realise that at the same time, other things were to be removed.
I know that guilds are ICly more important. But not everyone can build a guild. I've had an idea for my mage character to build a guild for ages, but haven't asked to build it, because I feel that one more mage guild would probably be surplus to requirements.
And I always thought of the white-titled who-list thing as meaning far more than just that. To all my characters, the "High Mage" has been a figure of awe, even if she was always evil, and lived in the Keep. And yes, I suppose my character is more likely to listen to the guildmistress of a guild she is part of, but at the same time she still has (had, I suppose) a lot of respect for the High Mage.
I couldn't care less about an extra level, though. That's not why I asked. I just have always liked the idea of titles being possible, something to strive for.
At another point: mages are no longer able to research spells. At least, that's what I remember recently reading. With the new spell-system, there is not much more place for researching spells. Though, if this is not the case, and we are able to research spells, then I have something to aim for, as well. There's still lots of spells out there to have.
So, I am not devastated at the loss of those little while titles. But I've always liked the idea of having one. I freely admit that. Something my mage has always liked the idea of (never admitted ICly), is being High Mage, gaining a title which she can used to help other magic-users.
But yes, I do see your point, Mele. And maybe I should have posted something then... but I had less time for forum-surfing than I do now. So... sorry for not piping up.
And again, no offence taken. I can take criticism and disagreement, and don't actually break into tears when I get it.
~Ol
I didn't speak up at this point, largely because I wasn't present at the IRC meeting, and so I assumed the actions taken here were for the better. Which maybe they were. But also, I didn't realise that at the same time, other things were to be removed.
I know that guilds are ICly more important. But not everyone can build a guild. I've had an idea for my mage character to build a guild for ages, but haven't asked to build it, because I feel that one more mage guild would probably be surplus to requirements.
And I always thought of the white-titled who-list thing as meaning far more than just that. To all my characters, the "High Mage" has been a figure of awe, even if she was always evil, and lived in the Keep. And yes, I suppose my character is more likely to listen to the guildmistress of a guild she is part of, but at the same time she still has (had, I suppose) a lot of respect for the High Mage.
I couldn't care less about an extra level, though. That's not why I asked. I just have always liked the idea of titles being possible, something to strive for.
At another point: mages are no longer able to research spells. At least, that's what I remember recently reading. With the new spell-system, there is not much more place for researching spells. Though, if this is not the case, and we are able to research spells, then I have something to aim for, as well. There's still lots of spells out there to have.
So, I am not devastated at the loss of those little while titles. But I've always liked the idea of having one. I freely admit that. Something my mage has always liked the idea of (never admitted ICly), is being High Mage, gaining a title which she can used to help other magic-users.
But yes, I do see your point, Mele. And maybe I should have posted something then... but I had less time for forum-surfing than I do now. So... sorry for not piping up.
And again, no offence taken. I can take criticism and disagreement, and don't actually break into tears when I get it.
~Ol
If you have knowledge, let others light their candles with it.
--Sir Winston Churchill
"This place is boring, I'm gonna go eat whatever I can find laying on the ground"
-- Hoildric
Cacie asks Larethiel 'Did that air just bow to you?
--Sir Winston Churchill
"This place is boring, I'm gonna go eat whatever I can find laying on the ground"
-- Hoildric
Cacie asks Larethiel 'Did that air just bow to you?