Magic Mirror/RP/PK

Cyric · Post by **Cyric** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:42 pm

Dear anti-scry'ers

Set up an ambush.

Your lord and master,

--Cyric

Addendum: I don't see the abuse in this situation.
First, you assume how much of an impact your encounter made upon this particular character.
Second, spell memorization time, spell components (both time & money), spell memorization organization... Let the character determine how to spend their time on the mud =P
Now with the argument of "scrying every evil in the game", again you assume. This PC is simply scrying those whom have had a significant RP with, and it's up to the player to decide what is and what isn't important to the character.

Now. At the same time, this is not an open invitation to mud-stalking, grieving, whatever the heck people call it. I call it mud-bullying. Guess what? I can be the bigger bully =P If someone is scrying all over the place only to tele to the level 20 orc by himself in the woods, they might find out he's just a survey scout for an orcish army.

A possible suggestion, btw, for coders: Is it possible to make a spell that will drop an object (rune, no get) in the room for a temporary time (day maybe?) that will make the room no-scry? High or medium cost for components, it'd be pretty powerful, I think.

Yzelle · Post by **Yzelle** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 8:50 pm

Scylere wrote:It doesn't really make sense that a character would be scrying all the baddies to "watch" them. How many baddies does that character know? Does that character scry them all every day? That's a lot of scrying.

Gee, I am a "baddie", and I scry people constantly, everything from my own faith's followers, to my friends, to my enemies. I would fail to see random scrying as being a problem. (After all, nothing that happens within the shadows is ultimately hidden from them, it's quite IC behaviour)

Also, you can't scry people you don't know, at least by eye contact. If you don't know them by name, you must know their description, and enough words of the description that you don't target the wrong mob.

As mentioned else in the thread, if you were in the FK world, for real, you would be scryable all the time, so a random scry could happen with or without the who list. Much like we use the who list to decide who we can send a tell - the who list lets us know who is available to farspeak with, it's an acceptable IC application of OOC code. Or would you also say we must start refraining from the who list and "tell" at random people we know until we find on that answers? If the who list was not an acceptible way to see who's online to play with, I would quite imagine that the admins would have already disabled it.

The fact of the matter is, the issue continues to be belabored, after a game admin and at least two NC members, have said they see no problem in this scrying behaviour.

Fact of the matter is, if one's having a go round in an area that is at this point, likely below one's level, and has no real safeguards to keep it from being razed (because, it was partially designed as a training area for lower level characters of a race.. that isn't one's own). One opens themselves up to the realm of IC consequences. That can be a PC or PCs popping into the area to run you out, or it could be an IMM who decides to put a little life in those senseless mobs to bash them about.

Fact of the matter is, you can't prevent someone from scrying you, short of Mind Blank. You could pay them back, if you don't like it. Magic Mirror is learnable by every bard, priest, and wizard in the game.

Dugald · Post by **Dugald** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:04 pm

Your right, the ooc level of the mob should come into account when your PC makes an IC decision. Leave that part to the gods and administrators, not to PC's.

Of course there is nothing stopping anyone from scrying anyone. But that is also the case for a ton of things that completely IC that are banned from doing, because it's a pain in the butt ooc.

Burying PC's, Sac'ing PC's, taking quest items, removing armor and platinum from corpses...these are all things that make /perfect/ IC sense. Level of the PC you're rivaling, shouldn't make a difference at all IC, but OOC you /need/ to have some consideration for other players. It's a game, you should take the considerations of a player in higher regard than the demands of your PC.

There is a case to be made for metagaming for the greater good. Choosing not to do something because it'd ruin a PC's fun that doesn't hinder another PC, is a virtue, imo.

Lerytha · Post by **Lerytha** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:12 pm

Teleporting in and shooting off spells is against PK rules. If that happens, people should send a complaint in.

Dugald · Post by **Dugald** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:28 am

There are plenty of spells that can ruin a player's time, that don't do any harm to a PC and can't cause a player kill situation.

Basically, I just think player courtesy should be considered as well. There are plenty of ways to be an interesting, fresh, antagonist to another PC without popping in during situations where the other PC isn't even expecting PC interaction.

I just like to make a strong case for positive metagaming. Your character wouldn't have to scry on other's PC's who don't like it if you give your character something else to do.

Roleplay shouldn't be a done by force. It should be mutual.

Raona · Post by **Raona** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:22 am

I agree with your base point, Dugald; but the issue is hardly unique to scrying spells. A certain Orc leader certainly tromps around where goodies (used to?) go train, and I can personally cite one instance in which a close encounter with his brutish self put a quick end to one adventurer's visits to what many (used to?) consider a training area. This seemed perfectly IC to me. The player let Raona run away (half-killing her with a single blow, mind you) and as it should be IC, she is a scaredy cat about the place to this day.

I would have grave concerns about player X constantly pursuing player Y, popping in on them whenever they go bash monsters, wherever they go. That becomes one player picking on another, certainly problematic if one is much more powerful than the other. Any character should have to the option to lay low. But a PC actively defending a given spot against all intrusions seems more fair, and plausible. Mind you, the same character should be moved to such defense even if outnumbered and outgunned. It should not be opportunistic.

...and while I can't speak from any first-hand experience, it would seem to me that evils should have less trouble finding training locales, as they can kill basically anything they come across - any "goodie" training spot should also serve as a fine "baddie" training spot, right?

[Edit: Just adding that Cyric put most of this better than I did, I just didn't see page 2 before punching the reply button!]

Telk · Post by **Telk** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:47 am

Raona wrote:But a PC actively defending a given spot against all intrusions seems more fair, and plausible. Mind you, the same character should be moved to such defense even if outnumbered and outgunned. It should not be opportunistic.

I don't see your logic in this statement. If someone is actively defending an area I don't think that instantly means that they must completely disregard intelligent actions and run into a big group and try to fight them off. Just cause someone wants to defend an area doesn't mean they have to become brain-dead. I'm not picking on you in particular, it's just I've seen a few posts on the forums lately that are more or less "Well, if you wanna do this then you should also do this, which is definitely the most in character thing for your character to do" Our characters can be anything we want them to be, and they can most certainly be unpredictable.

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:16 am

As laid out in the ORIGINAL posted scenario, I think it is fine.

I'm sure complaints would be made if flying evil wizards teleported into good/neutral aligned training zones and started buffing all the mobs or blinding the PC's forcing them to talk instead of fight - with the clear case of just roleplaying.

Well, this is a BIT off the original idea put forth. This or any "pop in and insta-fight" situation would be poor.

Finally, uhhhhh evils scry just as much as goods, if not more, as well they should. I look down on Cyric all the time. He's my little sunspot.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:03 pm

I like the idea that you drop a rune, and it pulces giving off a magic escence to the room rendering magic useless... eather by normal means of magic IN the room or out of the room. No magic mirror, calveryance... but the rune costs 30 platinum! *CACKLE!!!!!!*

sorry, got to excited.... all in all, it's a good idea

Cyric · Post by **Cyric** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:20 am

I don't think I was meaning a dead magic area, or even a wild zone. Just a way to prevent scrying.

From what I remember, there was a spell to prevent it (though the name escapes me...). However, it was a personal spell. Seeing as how things are coded in the game, rooms are flagged no_scry, not people. So I was just suggesting a possible alternative without getting too into messing with code.

Brar · Post by **Brar** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:56 am

Actually, the spell is nondetection and is target, not personnal. And before someone says trainer is not in the game, it is in the game.

Argentia · Post by **Argentia** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:40 pm

I don't believe that nondetection protects against magic mirror. It should only prevent being seen by invis purge type spells while you are invis/hiding.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:42 pm

correction, invisibility purge is the only spell (or was the last time i checked) to negate the spell, true sight w/ magic mirror still lets you see those with invisibilty and nondetection on... if i remember correctly

Eltsac · Post by **Eltsac** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:52 pm

NONDETECTION
============
Abjuration
Range: Touch
Target: Noncombat
Syntax: cast nondetection <target>

The warded creature or object becomes difficult to detect by divination
spells such as clairvoyance, locate object, and detect spells.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:57 pm

true sight is not a detect spell, locate object is different then magic mirror.

If you have true sight on using detect spells and clairvoyance should work still

Brar · Post by **Brar** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:08 pm

Well, then if it is like that, I think nondetection should be made so it helps against all scry spell (magic mirror is one)

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:12 pm

i agree with you brar golik it should

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:28 pm

MIND BLANK
==========
Abjuration
Range: Close
Target: Noncombat
Syntax: cast 'mind blank' <target>

This spell makes the target more resistant to all mind attacks as well as
invasions of their mind, including tells, scrys and the like. This spell can
be cast on others. This spell also makes you immune to several mind-affecting spells.

That's what this spell's for.

Actually, nondetection should shield the affected character against normal scrying, but, true sight trumps nondetection. So, true sight + magic mirror = can still see the nondetection-affected PC.

The above spell trumps True Sight. So, being affected by Mind Blank will make you resistant to scrying, even with True Sight.

Zach · Post by **Zach** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:10 pm

oh hey... that works too

Shabanna · Post by **Shabanna** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:02 am

Well... All code and statistics aside.

We are never guaranteed to be "alone" or "unwatched" *cackle* If you are doing something as a goodie or a "baddie" that you do not want someone to see...best think twice.

Ther are SPIES... in this game, you know. People can scry and track you... and you will never know it until it comes round to bite ye on yer bum! You know... IC actions and IC consequences and all.

DO not get all huffy if someone peeks in on you and you think you are getting away with something only suddenly to be thwarted! *Muhahaha* Suuuure it bites if you get busted

but you can not sit around pouting about it... Just learn from it and realize that the walls have eyes.. and ears... and Mirrors... and spells

If you wanna do something wicked with your "baddie" and do not want to be busted.... BE CLEVER and MORE covert *cough*... remember, there is always someone who could easily thwart your plans...fair and square

People in this game do not just wander around until something to do bumps into them. This is an RP mud... If you tick someone off... even if they are not your "mortal enemy"...they dont just forget about when they log off and start a new game next time they log on. They carry on and USE information and use RP as motivation for other RP. This is what creates intrigue and a sense of history in a character. It is why some people are here for years and years and able to continue playing... without getting "bored". Why? Becuase they do not put all their effort into stats and numbers .. they put it into character and back stories and information that they use to ROLE PLAY.

Sorry... I know I am digressing... but I think the problem is we all start talking about changing code and so forth... and really... this has more to do with RP IMHO. Motivation creates action... and ROLEPLAY. If you got busted doing something EEeeeeviiiilll ...sorry... someone was watching you *shrug* and there is no promise that you can wander around unchecked... period. I see no reason to change a spell cause someone does not want to be watched.

"The Banna"