Infractions and Consequences

[Dalvyn]

I don't see how you could realistically ask for IC help with a riddle quest.

Someone asks you a riddle and awaits for an answer. Don't you think he'll declare that you failed it if he sees you busy feverishly chatting to your amulet of communication and contacting all those you know to get the answer?

There's no perfect code-based solution to emulate that.

Basically, all the "abuses" against area code can be summed up as follows: when a player takes advantage of the fact that the mob code is not sufficient to make them react entirely ICly.

- when they take advantage of the fact that if they shove the guards in front of a building, the mobs in there will still deal with them and their friends;
- when they take advantage of the fact that the mobs are not coded to react to their waiting 50 minutes before giving out the answer to a riddle because they are contacting friends;
- when they use glitches in the code to buy several objects from a shopkeeper who said he would agree to sell them only one item;
- ...

[Moloch]

Then how can you police the ones who are sitting at their computer screens truly thinking upon the riddle, attempting to come up with the answer on their own? When given the riddles, I do not think the riddlemaster ever gives a time restriction, so how would you know WHAT the player is doing behind their screen? Just thoughts.

[Dalvyn]

It will never be possible to control everything and make sure that everybody is playing in a fair way.

There are two possible reactions to that:
1) Let's not control anything then, since we cannot control everything.
2) Let's control/check on what we can then.

Note that riddle quests have been slowly removed from the game (or at least, their rewards have been), for that very reason.

[Mask]

I don't see how you could realistically ask for IC help with a riddle quest.

Someone asks you a riddle and awaits for an answer. Don't you think he'll declare that you failed it if he sees you busy feverishly chatting to your amulet of communication and contacting all those you know to get the answer?

Well, if you're going to get IC about it, shouldn't we replace all riddling quests with intelligence checks? After all, the character might have intelligence of 23 while the player might be a little more modestly endowed with wit...

M

[Dalvyn]

Fine, if we replace combat with Dex- and Int-based skill checks to see how quickly you react to a situation and goes into casting the right spell, instead of depending on the player's typing skills.

[Ceara]

Ugh.

I happen to like the riddle quests more so than any other quests in the game, and I have sat there rping hmming and thinking for half an hour because I am trying to figure it out on my own. I think it would be unfair to judge wether the person can figure it out or not based on their characters int and takes all the fun out of it. Some people are not overly smart when it comes to books or schooling but can be brilliant with riddles or real life problems, so an int check wouldn't be right for starters. That's like saying if you have a low IQ you can't figure it out and not even bother telling them the riddle when in reality the person might be a genius with riddles and be able to solve it. Some people are book smart but can't find solutions to simple life issue's others can be smart when it comes to problem solving and life but aren't book smart. Hence the reason there is both int and wisdom, there are different types of intelligence, ie common sense and the lack there of. Some are lucky enough to have both.

Also I can understand not asking for ic help via amulet, but if you are there with another person or group of people, you huddle together trying to figure out this riddle. I think that is very IC, why wouldn't you ask your companions? I would think that at times the riddle master would be amused by this. That his or her riddle has the person that baffled.

*drops her two cents.*

[Mask]

It was a joke :)

[Mariela]

Personally,

I loathe riddle quests. I hate guessing games in real life. Psychological puzzles, sure. Character interactions, sure. Social dynamics, awesome. Discussing philosophy wicked cool.

I loathe riddles. You have no idea.
The first time I ran into that one riddle quest, there was no preparation for running into it. There was nothing in the pre end of the quest that said that the end would be a riddle quest. OOCly I will flat out admit that I looked out the door at the person who was with me while I was running around so we could RP while I was doing this "fetch" quest and telled them ICLY, "He wants me to answer some riddles. This is going to take awhile."

And then I proceeded to freak out oocly. I am bad at answering them. I have to spend a great deal fo time thinking of them and THEN on top of that, you gotta figure out how the MOB wants you to phrase them.

I am all for monitering cheating, but there is a point where the monitering is getting ridiculous. Timing riddles? Are you kidding me? And I agree with the one above, why wouldnt' with the instantaneous nature of the amulets someone "Call a friend" if they are stuck? I mean, heck, many of us tell one another when we are bored IC. If you know your buddy is a crazy man, he might understand the riddle better than you.

And on TOP of that, so many of us are super brain washed not to go off and do ANY quest without at least two friends. So are you saying now that we are not allowed to take others with us on quests cause it might be misinterpreted as "cheating?"

I think there are some who are abusing the quests. However, I think some are doing a WONDERFUL job of noting that some character may need a bit of help and going, "Hey. I know this place wher ethey need your help... you gotta go talk to them. I'll take you, but you gotta work your mojo on them to let them help you." And then offering some hints if you are flustered or irritated.

And would that mean that if someone went screaming into the Square, "HELP!" and you helped them with a quest you had no idea existed, would it be cheating if you went back later with your own posse and took care of it? That'd kinda suck. Cause what if it was a really fun quest? (Summerfield comes to mind. Come on. Who isnt staring at that thing going, "HOW DOES THIS WORK!!!")

Like I said, I am all for monitering of cheating/abuse of the quests. But timing things, and so forth, makes things so much harder to play with AND in a very basic sense, not all of us read particulary speedy or at the same speed. Sometimes even I, a professional reader *coughs* has to look back up and go, "Oh.. duh. Missed that. "

[Dalvyn]

If you do not like some kinds of quests... well, simply do not do them.

Many players (and I'm not singling you out here) think that quests are just minor inconveniences on the path to the reward and that they have to "win" and get the reward one way or another. This is not true... failing to complete a quest is as good as completing it, because both adds to the character's background and history.

If your character does not like riddles... then just do not have him/her do riddle-like quests.

Similarly, if you can't answer a riddle, then you simply fail the riddle quest. There is nothing inherently wrong with that.

Now, trying to find out the answers by discussing the riddles with people who are in the same room and have not done this riddle quest yet is fine. What is not fine is calling to other people, or worse to just try and get the answers from someone who has already completed the quest.

[Mariela]

Mypoint was mostly that in some quests, you don't know what they are until you run into them.

At the end of that one, it's just there, bam!
So naturally I wanted to do it. I had already done All that other work.

[Lathander]

I'm still monitoring this discussion and am very pleased at the level of input. I do want to interject one request. I've notice an increase in the use of "they" in the posts. As in "they want to add timers" or "now they want to do this or that." Please, PLEASE consider that the entire point of this thread is to develop a "WE" system. Yes, the imms will have the final say, but as you can already tell, the intent is to gather and include as much player thinking as possible/reasonable. WE want OUR game to be fair and fun for US.

Everything so far is a suggestion. Once the ideas/debates have run their course, I'll review it all and update the infractions/consequences list to reflect what can be perceived as a reasonable consensus. Then, we can hash THAT list out!

When all is said and done, FK will possess a clearly defined, posted list of rules and the consequences for breaking them.

[Mariela]

Lathander,

I think the list is fine. I just would love to see something on how you are going to go about deciding or the "Trial' system in which these are going to be laid at someone.

Is is just, "We caught you bam! Youa re pusnished."
Or do you actually get sucked into a realm to be heard by three ims and you get to have a friend come defend you.. ect.

This is great for a, "If you are guilty.... this happens" list. But it doesnt' tell us how it is decided we are guilty of said crimes.

Does that make sense?

[Lathander]

I understand your question Mariela and, after this part of the project is complete, I'll open a thread that addresses the "inquisition" part. I do not want to turn this thread into a discussion of anything beyond arriving at an acceptable list of "if you do this, then that will happen." That being said, here are some things to consider toward that future discussion. Even though I am being hypocritical and laying some thoughts out here, PLEASE don't comment on them until after that thread is officially begun. Ain't I a stinka!:oops:

• 1. The above list is for FIRST TIME offenses, so please consider that in your comments. Subsequent infractions might result in stronger consequences.
  2. Many things on the list do not need trials or friends coming in for defense. A good amount of those things are directly observable by invisible imms. We see what we see and no amount of defense is going to change what we observed.
  3. We will later discuss how to handle the things that are not directly observable.
  4. The thought of imms spending a lot of time in any kind of trial-like situation rather than playing a mort alt, building, coding, running rps or otherwise contributing to the mud is unappealing.
  5. Harsh but true - The same rights one might expect in a real life judicial system (though even those differ depending on the country from which you are playing) often don't apply here.

Heh, now don't post a response to that....YET!

[Mariela]

Firstly,
These are the FIRST offenses????

Dear lord.... you can do so many of these things by accidenta nd you can get your character deleted from them??????

I mean, heck, I think I've committed in my stay for the last year at least six of them. When I realized they were bad or was told don't do that, I stopped but some of them were very minor and their punishment is deletion???

I assumed these were like, "We've had the last straw at you." warnings.

Wow.
(edited to add more)

All right. I went back up and looked at the top post. How does the structure work generally speaking? Is it, the first tiem you get a verbal warning.. kinda like when the cops are being kind whent heys top you.. and then you get a strike, and then you get this punishment.. or do you completely skip all of that and head right to this punishment?

Cause if it'st he latter, holy crap...s ome of these are waaaay too high and brutal. There are some that you can literally do by not knowing any better or even on accident. And some of it is vastly dependent upon whomever is catching you's interpretation of what they see.

I mean, like the quest thing we keep batting back and forth. The idea that you can be doing a riddle quest and IC ask the mob if you can have help.. and then figure since he can't talk back to you, he said yes.... and turn to your buddy and ask them if they think this or that answer would work and come to a consensus and then turn back an answer it.. that woudl be construde as cheating...

but I would concider that a good chance to RP beyond the quest. I mean, it's not ill intended. It gets others involved and completes a quest that may be frustrating for a character or player alone. And everyone goes home happy and has something to pick on one another IC for the rest of all time. Buuuuut....

Is it still cheating? And should I have to lose my character for involving others in a quest even if it was simple?

[Japcil]

I believe any character deletion for first offences is alittle overboard. Exclusion from certain RP's and quests through strikes seems efficient enough to me or the 24 hr ban if it is that serious.

[Lerytha]

Mariela, I do understand why you are alarmed by some of the punishments outlined above. But I think people may be misunderstanding that list. Lots of these punishments are old punishments from way back when on the boards. They were appropriate then, because I would assume they had worse trouble than we now have. I think this list has been compiled from every single mention of a rule, and it is now down to us as players to whittle down the absurd rules, to tone down the harsh rules and to strength the too-relaxed rules. *shrugs* And so far I think its happening. This is a nicely constructive argument (I use the word "argument" loosely).

I also think the list is also a guideline, and that imms should to be honest be able to be trusted to give people fair punishments. Obviously the imms are not out to ban all people for every little thing. I know myself that I've broken a few of the rules by mistake, in the list above. I've been quietly corrected, I apologised and all was well.

What if I just protested and protested? And then broke more and more rules? Those are the players that these infractions and consequences are designed for, at present. I think the entire purpose of this thread is to make everything more open, fairer and slightly more democratic. It is a chance for us all to get involved, as Lathander said.

I'd also like to re-iterate the point that no-one on the MUD is out to ban people. Imms are there because they are also players who are contributing something. And I'm not doing that guilt-trip thing where I make out that imms are holier than us because they are volunteering for it so lets give them some slack. But seriously, lets give them some slack. No, forgive that tongue-in-cheek comment.

Basically, why are we here? To have fun. Imms, players, even our characters (when they're not being hacked apart by drunken orcs). We're all here to work together to build a nice, happy community where goods and evils can kill each other for fun. So, if anyone feels these rules are too harsh... yay! Say which rules, and why, and offer an alternative view.

I had a lot to say, but its all gone by the wayside. I also do agree with Mariela that some of these punishments may be too harsh for a first offence. I'll go through them when I have more time... *wince*

~Ol

[Mariela]

Oh do not get me wrong. I do not really think the IMMs care that much to stalk us around the game. Seriously. My experiance is that IMMs kinda look around, see who is all gathered ina big group, peek in. Go hmm.. and then go on their merry way.

Seriously, I think the IMM's generally have more to do with their day than sit there and stalk a player around the game lying in wait to use their banning stick.

It is just the idea of HOW we want to be policed. Do we really think that it's such a high crime to get help on a quest? Or is the higher crime dropping objects so you can "accidently' pick them up later as another character? (By the way, those who do that and I run across the objects as my characters, t hank you. I have made many coins selling your trash back to the places you bought them from for this little abuse. Thanks!)

Now, not knowing that the first post was the first time against you rather than you know.. three times later. (I'm a three shots type of gal. Once is a mistake. Two is you forget we talked and three, you are now officially doing it on purpose.)

[Grafghur]

So are we thinking of doing away with the 'Strike' system?

As for riddles quest, I have to agree with Dalvyn. If you don't like them, no need to do them considering there are a million other quest around. My personal fav was a huge riddle/game quest that at the end had a reward that I couldn't use. But the really fun part for me was that quest (my fav by far). So it's only fair that they should be kept for those who do enjoy such things. Though I have to admin, it is nearly impossible to police.

Deletion on a first time offence is a little harsh considering a newbie to FK might not know all the rules. Just my thoughts.

[Lathander]

Thank you Lerytha you nailed my sentiments for this thread exactly.

Let me clear up at least one thing here. The riddle quests and getting help. The instance(s) that resulted in the consequences shown above for that particular infraction happened something like this:

Player A (doing the quest): Tell B "Hey, I'm talking to so and so and he asked me this riddle. I can't figure out the answer. Can you?"

Player B (who has ALREADY DONE THE QUEST): Reply "Oh that's easy, the answer is honesysuckle!"

Now, I think it MIGHT be alright, if the players had a more rp-centered conversation. Even if perhaps player B gives a vague (yet helpful) hint, it MIGHT be alright. For example if B replies "Hmmm, I can't figure it out either but somehow flowers come to mind."

Another example of what we have ACTUALLY OBSERVED (though not a direct quote)...

A: Otell B "Yo, what's the answer to the first question so and so asks, the one about flowers."
B: Reply "honeysuckle"

Now that is just plain wrong and needs a consequence.

I'd like to end this little part on a positive note. I COMPLETELY agree that we are not currently experiencing (or at least observing, heh) anywhere near the level of cheating and other problems that we once did. The consequences listed above were culled from actual events and their resultant actual consequences. Some were first offenses, some not. So when I post and state that the list above is for FIRST TIME offenses, it is a starting point. Let's address that and come up with something that works. Maybe step one is "Verbal warning" for all but the most damaging things and then what we have up there is a SECOND OFFENSE list.

I LOVE this kind of dialogue!!

[Raona]

Could I just re-posit two questions from above?

1) Are we considering getting rid of the strike system? (If not, perhaps more of these things could have strikes as consequences? Isn't there currently even a way to "work off" a strike?)

2) What's with that school-IP-you-have-to-tell-us thing? Is Japcil's explanation right?