Silverymoon

[Dalvyn]

Silverymoon is shielded with a mythal that keeps out people of evil heart outside of the city.

When it was built, I put in several ways for clever evil to bypass this ward, so they could sneak up into Silverymoon to spy on people / explore the area / steal from people in there.

It's been brought to my attention that evil were using this method to go into Silverymoon and to trade and train with mobs in Silverymoon and the connected areas. Considering the highly magical environment of Silverymoon, and the availability of magic, the guards of the city can detect evil and throw them out of the city. It seems quite natural that priests in the nearby temples and wizards in the nearby guilds would also be able to detect that and would not agree to trade with evil characters.

Currently, I plan to simply remove those ways for evil to get into Silverymoon as a fix to prevent this from happening again. That's not the best solution, because it punishes both those who respected the limitations and those who avoided them, but I don't intend to go through the 7 or 8 areas attached to Silverymoon and modify all the trainers so they expel evils.

Comments welcome. (Obviously, my main message is: I wished that people would stop doing things that they think "clever" and would wonder whether this is fine or not before doing them)

[Glim]

Not disagreeing, but I have one doubt...

Wouldnt this just further encourage people to make neutral characters and roleplay them as evil?

I dont have a better answer, but I just thought maybe I should put that into consideration.

[Belose]

Well, Glim, as I've read on the forums, that would be abusing the system, too. And if they make neutral characters, and RP them as evil, SOMEONE will eventually notice and either bring it to an IMM's attention, or one will catch them anyway and they will be punished. No matter what, there's always gonna be someone out there trying to get around things, simply because they can. Doesn't matter if it's right or not, or how others who truly want to just play the game, someone will always be out there messing it up for everyone else. What worries me is that there are people deliberately doing things like that on purpose, and others who truly just make a mistake. It's nice when the innocent can have it pointed out to them, but it's really crappy when you can just be accused doing something even if you didn't know you're doing something that's not kosher. If I get a warning about something, I tend not to do it again. I want to keep playing.

[Saradin]

From my understanding that is the reason, or at least one of the reasons, that a favor requirement was added for chaotic neutral alignment. People were using it to get into Silverymoon for training/trading, then going off and being evil, with the excuse that chaotic neutral allows for evil behaviour.

As for creating a true neutral or lawful neutral character, if you start being all out evil you will be playing out of your alignment, and as said you will likely end up being dealt with by the staff.

[Raona]

Perhaps the mythal could operate on hidden alignment?

[Kelemvor]

The hidden alignment of the majority of evil characters in the game is so far removed from their stated alignment that such a check would in all ikelihood (and quite perversely) allow even more of them to enter Silverymoon

[Mariela]

I do not mean to jump the topic from it's current debate but I have a concern...

Hidden Alignment.

How in the world are we supposed to tell if we are playing our alignment correctly if we never know what our hidden alignment is? What purpose does it truly serve? I have -never- understood why it exists. Why can the alignment not shift and move if it's that important, based upon the amount of this and that that you do with your character. If you botch a pretty important quest, it shifts your alignment up and down a click or two... I dunno. just me.

As for blocking off Silverymoon.. I have no problem with it. I cannot think of a single evil character of minet hat even wants to go anywhere near that city. Even my neutral character doesn't want to go there... it's a bastion of goody two shoes who will probably want to convert her.... NO WAY! *sign against evil!*

Sure, if you are feeling happy, leave like 1 way to get past everything. Cause even the good can get down, down, down after a quest from what I understand to Skullport... but for the most part, it's blocked off otherwise. So that would make Silverymoon just as difficult to get in as an evil as it is to get down into Skullport as a good.

[Saradin]

Hidden Alignment.

How in the world are we supposed to tell if we are playing our alignment correctly if we never know what our hidden alignment is? What purpose does it truly serve? I have -never- understood why it exists. Why can the alignment not shift and move if it's that important, based upon the amount of this and that that you do with your character. If you botch a pretty important quest, it shifts your alignment up and down a click or two... I dunno. just me.

Because there is more to roleplaying than what you say/smote around other people? You should consider quests from an RP perspective as well. An evil PC who serves Cyric should not volunteer to help Joe Bob the servant of Helm rescue a fair maiden from the dark priest who wants to sacrifice her to his God. If anything he should kill Joe Bob, take his head to the Priest, and ask if there is any way he can help with the ceremony.

I think it was mentioned in another thread the habit of evils (and I imagine goods do it to) of accepting quests that there is no way that their character ICly should simply because they know it gives a nifty reward or some nice glory points.

If you create an evil character, it doesn't matter that you hang out in Market Square growling and threatening good PC's and vowing to do evil things in the name of <insert evil deity here>, if in your spare time you run around rescuing orphans and getting cats out of trees and helping that Priest of Tyr get the items he needs to build a weapon that will smite evil.

As for blocking off Silverymoon.. I have no problem with it. I cannot think of a single evil character of minet hat even wants to go anywhere near that city. Even my neutral character doesn't want to go there... it's a bastion of goody two shoes who will probably want to convert her.... NO WAY! *sign against evil!*

I don't know if new guilds have been built, but I believe one of the reasons evils, particularly of the magical persuasion, were trying to wriggle around the alignment restrictions in Silverymoon was because it contains/contained the only Invoker and Transmuter guilds in the game.

[Dalvyn]

My main point is: If you find that some non-obvious course of action gives you an advantage, and if there is any doubt whether this course of action is intended as valid or not, then do not do it without first asking.

Is that so unrealistic to ask this of players?

If you find that a level 1 spell makes you mostly immune to all the mobs in one of the deepest level of Undermountain, ask whether it's a bug or not.

If you are a wizard and find that you are expert in both sneak and hide, ask whether it's a bug.

If your steal skill increases when you take things off a stunned mobs, ask whether it's alright or not to do so.

If stunning a mob then stealing from it allows you to get items that the mob normally junks on death, ask whether it's alright or not to do so.

Is that unrealistic to ask this kind of mature behaviour from the players?

[Mariela]

Hidden Alignment Answer back:

It is not about the idea that you do not get penalized for doing things. I am not arguing your alignment shouldn't change. But why can't we see that alignment shift so we can better play our characters rather than it being a nebulous thing that only the IMM's can see where as we are still staring at our "netural good" and not realizing that our actions have moved us into the Lawful good spectrum?


Dalvyn:
I know I am not aware of t he history of the game or even the setting of which it is base to question things like should an evil person be walking the streets of Silverymoon. Until I actually had a character from there, and I talked to a few people, did I realize it was a magical city. Do I think most people are innocent in their....oh look, you can get this from this guild in this city cause it's wicked awesome? No. However, I think that some are in fact innocent in that regard. There is such a veil of, "don't ask don't tell in some areas cause people are so afraid of breaking rules, ect that it gets carried to an extreme.

If you are evil, stay out of Silverymoon. Guild or no guild, I guess that means there's an RP with your name on it to figure out where you can get those skills elsewhere. But maybe that's just me... I have never done something in the game that was for hte basis of making sure I had this toy or this spell or this object over something else. Heck, Mariela has the strangest list of spells cause I just buy them as I find them and if I think at the time she would find the learning of them interesting. Not because all Selunites should have magic fireball of doom!

So I do not think it's unfair to fix the ways in and out of Silverymoon to prevent people who do not belong in it, from going there.

[Lukon]

And one note I'd like to raise is that evil can be just as nuanced as good. Good folk outright kill certain things, especially based on religion, in what could be seen as a borderline-evil level of kill-on-sight. I think it's just as possible for someone evil to have perfectly good reasons for doing 'nice' things, like IC offers of profit, the challenge itself, screwing over rival evils, or just building up a reputation to dupe those who think better of him.

And there's always the number of people who don't consider themselves evil at all.

[Dalvyn]

The thing is, Silverymoon is not broken. The option to have a way in for evil was put there intentionally. I wanted it to be possible for evil to reach into Silverymoon and steal things, or reach into Silvermyoon and kill people. That is fine. What is not fine is interacting in a "friendly" way with people in Silverymoon.

As for "not knowing", review my examples above. I do not think it's possible for an evil to get into Silverymoon without knowing that they are doing something special and thus should be careful.

[Lerytha]

Playing devil's advocate a moment... is it wrong for an evil character to be friendly towards Silverymoon? As long as they don't arrive in a good temple wearing elf ears and the symbol of Cyric, why shouldn't they be taught by priests and wizards? e.g, the Tower of Balance in Silverymoon is full of Mystrans... would Mystrans refuse to teach evil people spells? Or what about Oghma's temple? Would that temple refuse to share knowledge of spells with evil people?

Now, I understand that what we want to avoid is just random evils going into random good places and training. "Hiya, I'm a servant of Cyric, Mystran dude, now teach me a spell!" (PS: it works for goods, too). But maybe we can just suffice with ensuring that it is reinforced that you should always think what your character would do, rather than enforcing a blanket ban. Because well-RPed evils should be able to enter Silverymoon and learn what they like from those few temples that would ICly teach them.

And this argument isn't even touching on the fact that someone could pretend to be nice and get taught that way.

Just something to think about the other way.

~Ol

[Kirkus]

Here is an interesting question, and I appologize if I come across as rude, by no means is it intended that way. I was wondering if you would explain why you created Silverymoon the way you did, with the shield to ward off evil? I remember the day long, long ago when I began investing in source books and came across this difference, I was curious.

[Leohand]

An evil PC who serves Cyric should not volunteer to help Joe Bob the servant of Helm rescue a fair maiden from the dark priest who wants to sacrifice her to his God. If anything he should kill Joe Bob, take his head to the Priest, and ask if there is any way he can help with the ceremony.

There are always exceptions! An evil person might seemingly do 'good' if the rewards are good enough. In tabletop, I once played a neutral evil character that possessed an artifact called the Shield of Proctor. Now, one of the conditions of keeping that shield, and all the powers it possessed, was to complete one quest each year, the more evil you are, the more dangerous the quest had to be, but possessing it gave him all the spells of a twentieth level paladin. It was an extremely powerful artifact, and he was willing to do good to keep it, since it was only once per year.

Were he LG, though, he probably could have rescued a kitten from a tree and that would qualify as his good deed, but since he was far from that, well, his good deed had to be stuff of 'hero' caliber.

So what I'm saying is, if an evil person has enough incentive to do so, he or she can do 'good' For the most part you are right, however.

[Nedylene]

I am a firm believer of not punishing the whole on the fault of one. Many things have changed over the years and in regards to Silverymoon some things which were are no longer.

The confusion and question remains are the temples under the same protection as Silverymoon? Mystra has accepted evil into her flock before.. some have turned from her to darker paths. The question has been answered in previous posts but I do believe that is where the confusion rested.

Let there still be backways in and forms for those of evil persuasion to sneak into the city and find ways around to spy, hunt or cause havok on a larger scale RP as has been done in the past. May I suggest a small line in the help Silverymoon file along the regards of "Due to the protection the city offers, some clergies have chosen to erect temples within the walls of Silverymoon to offer their followers of pure heart a sanctuary and construct for meditation and learning" Clear cut that even if this specific clergy has accepted you in a different location the clergy in this location do not always agree with say the temple in this city or that city. No room for interpretation and if abused strikable offence.

[Dalvyn]

Here is an interesting question, and I appologize if I come across as rude, by no means is it intended that way. I was wondering if you would explain why you created Silverymoon the way you did, with the shield to ward off evil? I remember the day long, long ago when I began investing in source books and came across this difference, I was curious.

From The North, Cities, page 45: "All of Silverymoon'&#146;s wards detect evil creatures, and they also alter magics cast within a certain distance of the gates."

All the knights in Silverymoon react when they see evil people in the city. Why would the official temples not react in the same way? Would they be seen dealing/teaching those that guards would cast off the city, especially when they are extremely close to the ruling people of Silverymoon?

And even if you think the answer is not a clear "no", there is still enough doubt to second-guess the action and ask before doing it (someone actually did ask about it last week).

When something looks fishy, it problems IS and the good option then is to ask whether it's fine to do it or not. The option to just do it and hope to be unnoticed and cackle while thinking that you're so much more clever than the builders and people not in the know is clearly immature and always leads to more restrictions being added, where everybody is punished in the end. And that part is pleasant for no one.

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular, nor do I want to go over things done in the past (I have given enough examples above), all I want to get across is: if something looks fishy, ASK!

[Leohand]

In addition to my previous message, while an evil alligned character might do good if the benefits are good enough, for the sake of this role-play, I'd remind people of a few things.

First off, don't use me as an excuse to run around doing good deeds if your evil.

Second, keep in mind a few things, first that while YOU, the player, might know the reward, if your character doesn't know how good the reward is, they'll probably choose NOT to do 'good'.

If I played an evil character, and someone told me that, say, there was a hefty reward to rescue this damsel from goblems, I might consider it, but only if I knew about the reward in advance. This is just an example.

[Dalvyn]

Why does this thread keep being derailed?

[Dalvyn]

What about killing mobs that do not manage to even hit you and getting bows worth several platinum coins from each of them?

Does that not sound fishy if only a bit?