Charisma

Grom · Post by **Grom** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:07 pm

Couldn't charisma give like morale bonuses to a parties members if the leader has exceptionally high charisma. Leading them well and coordinating attacks and the like could play out to a stronger party and such.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:11 pm

Well, honestly like I believe I said earlier Charisma is a very important part of a character, but here in FK I think it's underrated. I think the emphasis we place on it code-wise is far too much. There are some mobs where you have to have 18 charisma just to do business with them. 18 charisma is a _lot_ in Table Top. Especially when you play by old rules and you roll your own stats. Considering the average human has literally 10-11 base stats all (the layfolk), I think a lot of the current requirements actually encourage min-maxing rather than discourage it.

In my opinion, regardless of whether people care or not, I think it should be the players who are responsible for their characters. For instance, in the past Selveem did command quite a bit of respect, but he has had some VERY questionable charismatic defects.

One example would be that in the past, due to his beliefs and upbringing he had sacrificed corpses to Tempus - chopping them up into small bits and laying them out ritualistic-like.

Since he has added Charisma and Wisdom and no longer sacrifices corpses (after learning that perhaps Tempus may not particularly care for the ritual).

He still has his scars. He still will argue with anyone who tells him his beliefs are wrong. He is not the social butterfly. These are some things often that people simply don't consider.

To me, his old charisma score of 10 was suitable for how I played him. He had some very questionable practices and did do some rather foolish things. He was scarred worse than most Orc and used no tact when apprehending someone for information.

The new emphasis on wisdom is a bit annoying, too. Wisdom is mostly awareness - learning. Not something everyone is really born with, but can take the time to train themselves to be more perceptive.

No matter how you look at Wisdom, no character or Mob on first sight would be able to say 'OMG you have only 10 wis? LOLOLOL! Lewser.' This may, however, be circumvented by a little spam in-room by a mob, upon attempting to accept a quest, saying 'Hmm, alright. Mind if I ask you a few general questions before I accept your help? I don't want to waste either of our time. Tell me what you know about...' <check, fail> 'I'm afraid you might be a bit out of place for my specific purposes. Try another time?'

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:16 pm

What is wrong with mobs checking Charisma and Wisdom before giving out quests?

Consider how much someone gains from a high strength. Added damage, and - even better - the ability to carry much more. Consider how much they gain from constitution too, or other "rewarded" stats. I believe that missing on a few quests is a very fair price for not having invested stat points into Charisma and Wisdom. That's for the OOC part.

Now, for the IC part, low wisdom would mean that you are not perceptive, that you look "quite dumb". Sure, a mob should ask you questions or at least chat for a while with you to determine that... but if that was coded, it would turn into just having to type "yes" three or four more times. That's not really worth it.

Grom · Post by **Grom** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:42 pm

I would agree having wisdom and cha be checked on quest to be nice. Although I have run into a few where you have to have maxed out ..and not alot of people other than some sunites bards and a char that is uber hot. Some of my chars have a good charisma its not like ima be nice and sexy or butt ugly..just he has nice features and a silver tongue.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:57 pm

No quest requires a maxxed-out stat. Besides, what is wrong with missing on a quest because of a stat that is too low?

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:59 pm

Yes, absolutely. Being able to carry stuff is nice. The extra damage? I can't really _see_ it, but to be honest I don't see that much of a difference from when I used to have my str 8 points above 306 cwt to the 306 cwt it is now.

Is it possible to have the help file updated for help damage? Right now, I don't know if 'minces' is better than 'nearly bisects' or anything of that nature.

The only reason I even enjoyed having such high strength was specifically if someone died and I had to carry their corpse all the way to a PC cleric. Since then, code has been modified so that NPC clerics can resurrect as well - I love it. Whoever's idea and code this addition was, I LOVE YOU.

Raona · Post by **Raona** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:37 am

How does anyone even know that a quest requires certain stats, unless they are looking at the area code for it? I don't get it...comparison with other characters, or what? Is this kosher???

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:41 am

Raona wrote:How does anyone even know that a quest requires certain stats, unless they are looking at the area code for it? I don't get it...comparison with other characters, or what? Is this kosher???

Yes, I have noticed the difference with other characters. Certain ones don't get the responses that other ones do. Is it kosher? I don't really know. To me, it doesn't really make a difference. You're going to find out one day or another. You walk in and speak to a certain Gnome who begs you to help him, then you happen to be exploring the same area months later on a fighter character who has a completely different set of stats and you notice - hey, no quest!

Common sense.

Velsavius · Post by **Velsavius** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:23 am

I'm still getting my mind around coding and hopefully my first area is not to far off now, but I do know that there are many different checks for quests in FK not all of them are stat related... some of the different ifchecks look at a PC's race, class, guild and many many more so the fact that a fighter may not recieve the same quest as any other class is fair enough as the fighter in return will recieve quests that no others will.
Hmmm.. I know what I was I was trying to say

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:38 pm

That was a general example. It's already been verified on the forums by Imms that certain quests require certain stats. I'm just explaining some of those quests require a very high stat point which, in my opinion, encourages further min-maxing.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:40 pm

Eh? Min-maxing?

Like dropping your strength to the min value and raising your Charisma to the highest value possible?

Mariela · Post by **Mariela** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:23 pm

I believe when they say min-maxing they referring to raising a stat you would not generally raise because you discover it would be beneficial to you to have it up higher.

Generally speaking, that means as a warrior, raising your charisma to blinding from dirt butt ugly cause more quests and things trigger for you. Or raising your strength and dexerity upwards to crazy levels cause you want to be able to pound the heck out of anything in your way.

From my introduction to the subject, in Larp, it means filling out your mental, social and physical traits to their max cause that way you can throw 30+ traits in a combat.. that's kinda tough to beat if you don't do the same. It's a vicious cycle.

Tempus · Post by **Tempus** » Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:42 pm

I think Dalvyn's point was that encouraging people to use the oft-neglected stats like Charisma, which until now had little in-game effect, is intentionally designed to counteract a min-maxing mindset.

A traditional min-maxed warrior would have little need for Int/Wis/Cha - increasing the need for these stats in the game reduces the opportunity to min-max.

Mariela · Post by **Mariela** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:40 am

*sigh*

I am sure the IMM's want to think the best out of people. I really do believe that. However....

People are not always their best. They want to be able to go do this quest they heard was really kinda cool.. or the quest that someone takes them to go take care of caus they thought they would enjoy it. Sometimes, it's frustrating to get to a quest point and discover you do not have something very basic for the quest. And thus... people turn around and buy what theyneed.. and then the snowball starts to go down the slope.

I love the fact that charisma is used for things like haggling... I dunno if I completely agree it should be used for a large amount of quests. That way, it keeps the amount of people who have an 18 charisma down. right now, it's set up that people will want to get 18 charisma so theyc an do all the quests.

But that's just my thoughts. At the end of it, no matter what you do, you will always have someone min/maxing on the basic premise of being better than another character in a fight. *shrugs*

Oghma · Post by **Oghma** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:00 am

Just because you cannot do a quest on a certain pc because you have a low CHA does not mean the world is over, it means that the quest in question was made for chars that are more charismatic than yourself, they have sacrificed for the chance to do a bit more damage or carry as much as much as others have sacrificed for power and durability. I can see either choice as a blessing or curse.

Remeber also many quests will not trigger based on other stats or levels or even alignments and even kismet and race. It depends on you to take such things in stride or to look to find other quests that are equally more interesting or tailored to your pc.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:44 am

Mariela wrote:right now, it's set up that people will want to get 18 charisma so theyc an do all the quests.

I would rather think that, right now, it's set up so that people will want to get 18 for their strength to be able to carry much and punch monsters in their face, oh... and 18 for their Constitution too, to be able to withstand a lot of hits and walk a lot and hmmm those in-the-know (but don't repeat it, because it's a secret), will want a 18 in Int too to maximize their skill increase rate.

If someone wants to take a 18 in Charisma over a 18 in Strength to gain access to a couple more quests, I am rather fine with it. I doubt it will become common as in "many people will do this" really.

I agree entirely with your reasoning, but I think you do not apply it to the right things.

Let me explain. I agree that people will increase stats that they perceive as rewarding and leave other stats down, even if this combination does not fit their roleplay or the concept of their character. I do not agree that "being able to do two more quests" qualifies as a sufficiently "rewarding" in their eyes though.

That being said, note that all the might change, in the following ways (I actually hope for such a change), by making more stats useful. Selecting where to spend a stat point is supposed to be a tough, heart-breaking choice, not a trivial matter.

Physical stats
- Strength: how much you can carry (useful all the time!), damage bonus
- Dexterity: should be given a huge boast when the armour system is recoded to fit D&D (high Dexterity with light armour = better armour than any Dexterity with heavy armour!), important for all saves related to avoiding incoming spells (fireball, lightning bolt, ...)
- Constitution: amount of hit points, move points (useful all the time, unless you can teleport!), important for all saves related to poison or direct attack on your body (disintegrate, energy drain)
Mental stats: all three used as modifiers for all experience and skill level gains; all three used as requirements in some quests
- Intelligence: how many languages you can learn, useful for wizards
- Wisdom: important for all saves related to spells that attack your mind (hold person, cause wounds, phantasmal killer), useful for priests/rangers/paladins
- Charisma: used to haggle in all money-related activities, useful for bards/clerics/paladins

Achieving such a system would create a balance between all the stats in my opinion, making them all equally (but in different ways) useful.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:50 am

Should we bug report then if we have no increase in saves vs poison from having high con?

Kelemvor · Post by **Kelemvor** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:13 pm

Dalvyn wrote:...might change, in the following ways (I actually hope for such a change), by making more stats useful

The benefits for each stat that were listed are those that we would like to see come in. (To balance them and make all useful.)

We are not saying that if you currently have a high con you should be showing an increase in your resist poison score. (Though your constitution score is still checked when a poison save is made)

Mariela · Post by **Mariela** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:27 pm

For me you really can't make those stat points any more heartbreaking to decide upon than they already are. I do though, like the idea of them being more enhanced stats. That they are more than just words like friendly and give you a few added things here and there.

Will it discourage min/maxing, absolutely not. People will figure out ways to play the system for their benefit. Especally for a game that has a very large press on battle, and not so much on simple interactions between one another. Battle is so important on FK. It's where we get our experiance, and so forth to be able to rank up. It's nice to know that in my character's seemingly slow for the game, progression that they would still be getting a few things here or there when I decide to plant some stat points into their stats regardless of what they are.

Isolrem · Post by **Isolrem** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:52 am

ahem... sorry...
but do people really raise their stats just to acquire quests?
I've frequently noticed quests that do not activate for particular chars of mine because they lack some stats... I don't think spending the stat points is worth obtaining the quest.

As for there being no quest that requires max+ stats... I'm pretty sure I know of at least one.