Stats

Leohand · Post by **Leohand** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:22 am

Here's an idea. Since 'most' people don't care much for Charisma, maybe you could add more charisma-based abilities, like dancing. If you have a low charisma and use a dance emote you can fall flat on your face, or with a high charisma you perform well, and, I'm not sure there's anything like it in DnD, but like a swordsinger/dancer class. It would be like a paladin, except not necessarily Lawful-good. Actually, I read a series of books, can't remember the author, but the books are called:

Sword Dancer
Sword Singer
Sword Maker
Sword Breaker
Sword Born
Sword Sworn

Anyway, in my experience, just about every idea I read about, something similar has already been done or will soon be done in DnD, so, yeah, no harm in bringing it up.

The basic thing behind this is, can we just find a way to make charisma a bit more important.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:05 am

What we did is restrict access to quests.

You have a low Charisma or Wisdom? Fine... but then don't expect many quest givers and people in need to trust you enough or to see you as someone able to solve their problems.

Leohand · Post by **Leohand** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:11 am

Oh, nicely done! That makes Charisma more important, very much so! I did not know that.

Harroghty · Post by **Harroghty** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:34 am

That is an excellent solution to the problem but I have a question about that. How can you extend that to wisdom as well as charisma?

Charisma makes sense. You could look at someone and decide that they don't look trustworthy or aren't perhaps what you were looking for but it would be difficult to look at someone and decide they aren't wise enough to accomplish your task. You're using OOC information in a way that we would consider bad role-playing if a PC did it. It's like having your lawful good character recognize an evil one at first glance because you saw they had an evil god's avatar on these forums.
If the answer is just that you wanted to do that as a control, then fine - it's your game to administrate how you'd like - but I'm curious if there's another explanation?

Leohand · Post by **Leohand** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:45 am

Harroughty, think of it this way. The Player Characters are not your 'normal' folk, and perhaps they have a repution, and perhaps the quest-giver has heard of this reputation. Like, is your reputation that your a great warrior that's not so intelligent and wise? Yes, they can do whatever they like, because it's their game, but I think that's a good reason for me.

Larethiel · Post by **Larethiel** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:05 am

But there would be the problem, Leohand, with new players, who came out of the Font of Knowledge and mayhaps haven't done any "great" deals or what the "not normal" folk does. So, a quest-giver could've hardly heard of this particular adventurer, or?

And with the stats, the lowest charisma you can have is average and like somebody before already mentioned, average is not ugly, it's just normal

Besides that there are plenty of different possibileties how to play your low/high charisma anyway

And in DnD there are Sworddancers/singers, though elven classes/prestigeclasses.

Ceara · Post by **Ceara** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:27 am

average is not the lowest charisma you can have. My character started at offensive

Larethiel · Post by **Larethiel** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:58 am

Ahh, sorry, I took Luck by accident

I apologize

Leohand · Post by **Leohand** » Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:09 pm

Ceara wrote:average is not the lowest charisma you can have. My character started at offensive

Ceara, yes, their are races with lower charisma, but if you play a dwarf the lowest you can go is Tactless, so is you want to play an uglier dwarf you can only role-play such, not much else.

Nicolya · Post by **Nicolya** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:42 pm

As someone who opted to assign my points rather than that the standard package, I rather liked the flexibility that I had with the character creation.
This way if I wanted to play say a dexterous charsmatic priestess I could, while one player I've had a chance to RP with picked a different route it seems, going for a more martial cleric.
There are always going to be the min/maxers out there, but I really enjoyed being able to have variety in what I selected.

Cret · Post by **Cret** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:55 pm

Some recent things have cause me to look into this some more:

How do you RP your stats?

Strength. Oh, yeah, your strong you can carry alot, and it works into your description. Anyone can imagine being strong

Constituion - I put this next because I believe it is a type of strentgh. I know plenty of people with buldging muscles who cant lift as much weight as I. Then again, most runners I know can out last me in about everything.. constutition is more willpower/endurance. We can walk longer, rp taking damager easier and unaffected by pain. Easier.

Dexterity - This is a hard one. Are you fast? Plenty of fat (dont take it as non -politicaly correct) people who have really good balance and nimble fingers. Where you could be lanky and the acrobatic type. Speed can factor into this.

Intelect - Baised on experience, from Cret. I make up big words all the time baised on him being a gnome. Anyone can Rp being smart or dumb with relative ease. Of course there is always the idiot savant to consider. I can cast a spell. But I cant dress myself.

Luck - ??? How does one rp luck. We cant roll in a game of dice with hit.. I dont know how its used.

Now for the hardest of the stat

Charisma - I can be beautiful. I can be elegant. I can be dark and powerful. I can command respect with a look. I can be all.. Or I can be an ugly sun of a gun who smells like a dung heap. I can be the tyrinical princess whom no one cares for because im a jerk and care only for myself. How do you Rp a commanding presence? People tend to come back with "I dont feel commanded by you". I think we need something other then a description to help with this!

Wisdom - How does one rp being wise? Im new to the mud, i know how to cast cure light and im damn wise. However. I dont know what the undermountain is. Why cant I solo it? Im a follower of Tymora why shouldnt I group with a follower of Illmater to slay a dragon? How does someone rp this? OOCly I want to do this but ICly I dont know I shouldnt..

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:17 pm

Straight from the D20 System Reference Document:

Strength (Str)

Strength measures your character’s muscle and physical power. This ability is especially important for fighters, barbarians, paladins, rangers, and monks because it helps them prevail in combat. Strength also limits the amount of equipment your character can carry.

Dexterity (Dex)

Dexterity measures hand-eye coordination, agility, reflexes, and balance. This ability is the most important one for rogues, but it’s also high on the list for characters who typically wear light or medium armor (rangers and barbarians) or no armor at all (monks, wizards, and sorcerers), and for anyone who wants to be a skilled archer.

Constitution (Con)

Constitution represents your character’s health and stamina. A Constitution bonus increases a character’s hit points, so the ability is important for all classes.

Intelligence (Int)

Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons. This ability is important for wizards because it affects how many spells they can cast, how hard their spells are to resist, and how powerful their spells can be. It’s also important for any character who wants to have a wide assortment of skills.

Wisdom (Wis)

Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings. Wisdom is the most important ability for clerics and druids, and it is also important for paladins and rangers. If you want your character to have acute senses, put a high score in Wisdom.

Charisma (Cha)

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to turn undead.

So, using the above, you can see a basic idea of the type of person you would build depending on the stats you assign.

A high-intelligence, low wisdom character could be very much an idiot-savant type when in extremes, able to do einstein level math or reason any puzzle you throw at them but not have the common sense that the gods gave a stump. Or it could just be that the character has a very low will power and is extremely gullible. The absent-minded professor also comes to mind. One who wishes to be both brilliant and perceptive should be paying attention to both these stats.

A high-constitution, high-dexterity, lower strength character would fit the definition of the adjective "lithe", the combination of agility with endurance. Many thieves fit this mold.

Charisma is far more than a pretty face, it is the key to being ICly commanding, and having a strong personality. A brilliant tactician would need both a high INT and CHA, else no one should even be willing to listen to him, or else he would just simply lack the ability to impart his tactics in a way that could be followed. A truly powerful leader like a famous general would would want to have high scores in all three of INT, WIS, and CHA. Low WIS would make such a figure easy to exploit or manipulate by others. A low INT would interfere with such a person's ability to actually envision or plan strategy.

There are endless ways to shape the image of a character based on the combination of their stats. Using the excerpts above for the stats should help with shaping a character to fall right in line with the stats you chose.

Amalia · Post by **Amalia** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:50 pm

First, I'd like to query just how bad the "Charisma problem" is, for my own peace of mind-- are there really a bunch of pretty or commanding characters running around with abysmal charismas, or at least charisma scores not sufficiently high to describe their abilities and looks? Or is this a problem primarily exhibited by those who make ugly characters and roleplay them so everyone dislikes them anyhow?

I don't think Charisma should have to be terribly high if you just want one aspect of it-- for example, even a character with a charisma of Friendly could be drop-dead gorgeous as long as she also had a bunch of grating habits, a supremely irritating laugh, and either an overinflated sense of self-worth or none at all. Likewise, a character who's plain-looking but has people follow him around just because he's that cool should have a few points in charisma. Maybe the player can't even help being well-liked-- but to have a low charisma, I think a character should have to be played as not terribly likeable-- and I suspect most folk who know how to be well-liked in real life are capable of pulling off a less attractive personality on a character.

Conversely, I think that any character who is EITHER going to be pretty or rise to a position of power should have a decent charisma. Any character who's going to do both should have a charisma at least a few ranks into Charismatic. Perhaps Charisma requirements for such positions would be useful-- if your Charisma is too low, no matter how you roleplay it, your character just plain doesn't have the magnetism and powerful personality required to lead.

Along with that, I'm always happy to hear about more charisma-based abilities; perhaps performance or oratory arts of various kinds that non-bard characters could have a part in, as suggested above.

Nedylene · Post by **Nedylene** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:55 pm

MMmmmm.. What I love about Charisma. Charisma is not just skin deep but also how you hold yourself and how you interact with others. You can be absolutely stunning.. an image of perfection. And act like a little piss ant snot and have an utterly low charisma. Don't we have some examples of that in game already?

I think where roleplaying Charisma comes in is those who are stunning, beautiful, charming.... and have like a 10 charisma. Ick.

Cret · Post by **Cret** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 3:05 am

Wisdom (Wis)

Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings. Wisdom is the most important ability for clerics and druids, and it is also important for paladins and rangers. If you want your character to have acute senses, put a high score in Wisdom.

How do we role play this? In a table top version a DM would be like. Hmm, you have a 16 wisdom. Yeah, you shouldnt do that. OR You have a wisdom of 7 looks like you dont know any better and feel like you should do it!

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 4:30 pm

I can't wait till all the stats are made useful. There were some questions about minmaxing in another thread... Today, I logged in and randomly checked on a character.

Code: Select all

pStr: 20 pInt: 18  pWis: 10  pDex: 18  pCon: 18  pCha: 8  pLck: 13

That's the kind of things that would need be addressed. Not forbidden, but addressed so that the advantages gained are balanced with corresponding penalties.

Typical twink here. High strength, to be able to carry much and hit hard. High Int because skill increases depend on Int. High Dex and Con because they are useful in battle too. And Wisdom and Charisma dropped down to the minimum values, because they are not used.

Oh, and that genius character with Int 18 is of a monstrous goblinoid race, so the Int stat clearly is based on minmaxing and not on a character concept.

To be honest (and mayhaps a bit blunt), I don't mind if this character miss on all the quests. I also wouldn't expect this character to be taken along in any major imm-run roleplay, or to be welcome in any player organization. And I wouldn't blame the imms for extending their disinterest to all the characters of the same account.

Making all stats useful in different but comparable ways hopefully will remove the "players in the know' syndrom, where those who know all the technical details (like how Int influences how quickly your skills increase) do not get unfair advantages.

That was today's rant.

Grom · Post by **Grom** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 4:50 pm

I agree with the way it is thought of there is just one thing I wish to ask. When putting restrictions on quest do you set them really high for needing almost maxed wis and cha? And when you put these restrictions do you look at the mob who gives them? Some of them are country bumpkins and some aren't. I do agree with having restrictions on them but wouldn't some be restricted by the npc wanting a really strong or agile person? Rather than if they look wise or pretty? I mean..some of these people won't give a lick about if you are smart..resourceful or pretty. Only if you can get the job done? Halforcs aren't super smart but they will get jobs that require muscle or be hired on as a taverns bouncer in case of barroom brawls. While some might see this lithe fellow who is agile and can move really fluidly a job that is less than..savory to be done. Wouldn't some quest out there have those kind of restrictions as well?
I am saying that based on who is giving the quest the restrictions could be altered to fit each on a case by case. Perhaps even add a group dynamic. That if the person does a quest and has friends along they share in the fame they gain for aiding others around? That would even give others more of a reason to go out mroe in groups than solo as well I think.

Lukon · Post by **Lukon** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:49 pm

Dal...you may be right.

But if you're not, then you just offended me and rattled my trust a little in you.

Arbitrarily looking at a character's race/stats and deciding, "Twink! This account is beneath my notice!" is a little bloody bit hasty. If you know the character's RP, please say so, and I take it all back, but it if it was the random blacklist scan that you claim, then frankly, I'd rather avoid you out of FEAR that something in my code may bother you, gods forbid my RP doesn't suit your tastes.

Mariela · Post by **Mariela** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:10 pm

/RP Rant Initialized......

Look. Let's all take a step back and take a deep breath and remember something very important. Forgotten Kingdoms is based upon Forgotten Realms... which is a setting campain from the beloved creators of everyone's favorite game Dungeons and Dragons. (Gag!) The game is ancient, in comparison to the role playing industry. It was one of the first. (note how I did not say one of the best.) It's premise was simplistic and very face foreward and still is.

Go to the dungeon, get the loot, save the girl, be a hero.

The game expects you to continue to progress and be better until you are akin to a God like creature. There really isn't a chapter in the books devoted to roleplaying like some other games that are newer in the industry. The concept of role playing... beyond the jokes of a hack and slash are relatively a new concept to D&D and the rules are still trying to play catch up.

I have not met a hard core D&D player yet that the first things out of their mouth was the story in which their character was in. It has ALWAYS been about their stuff and stats. Always.

Now, we are adults here, for the most part. Mature individuals and even in the short time I have been part of FK, the press for more role playing and less sheet mongering has increased. That's a great thing. It makes the game interesting even if we are sitting in the middle of the square. However, we are a loooooooooooong way from being that site that cares nothing for what's on your sheet.

And like I said in the other thread.. min/maxing happens. It's pratically encouraged in FK to make sure you can "compete" or even attempt to be as skilled in your faith, your profession or just socially in the world. Those of us that log so many hours, developing our characters, making friends doing quest.. we play perpetual catch up to some of the older characters. And it seems like every time something liket his comes up, it's not the old school characters that are getting the brunt of the rule shifts.

It's us new ones. Who just wanna be like our character's idols.. you know those super classed up 50 level characters who have grandmastered everything on earth.

So it kills us when people are calling foul cause we do not have a low stat on our sheet.. or if we spend some time to attempt to rank up one particular skill, ect. Or when the experiance rate shifts. Cause it's not punishing the characters that are already where they want to be. It punishes us low end of the dream pool characters.

Don't get me wrong. I like change. I am a big advocate if it make sthe game more edgy, more fair and more enjoyable for the majority. You cannot please everyone. However, there is a large black line between the "heroes" of the game.. those older characters, and the new ones. And if you are not in that old club, you are out. They will come down to speak with you now and again.. but.... *coughs*

Taking away our stats and adapting the ability for us to fiddle with our sheets... it seems like you are forcing us to role play against those characters already in power. And they will stay in power because of it. I am rambling but bare with me. Role play is all the high level characters have. Kudos. But the rest of us need to have the ability to do our sheets without feeling paranoid about being called a twink and a cheater just cause we want to be as good as those characters. I cannot count on two hands how many times I have seen a high classed character deal wtih an RP dissention killing the person arguing with them.. (Note: Yes.... I realize some youn'ens need to be taught a lesson, but some.. I would have said they were almost as good at their RP if not better than that high classed person. and thus.. should have won.. hands down. if it was bout RP and not sheet vs. sheet.)

/Rant Off.

I personally would love to see a random selection of various levels of stats. Take someone from 10th, 20th, 30th, 40, and 50th and show us their stats. So we can see how diverse it is. One person's sheet doesn't show us anything about what people do. We do get stat points every what.. five or ten levels? It's not like we can change that. I know -I- have characters that are holding stat points on their sheets unspent, but that's only cause I have not decided what I really want more... this or that...

A sampling would be a better indication if people are actually feeling the need to increase those stats.. for good or for evil. Rather than 1 person's sheet who.. like Lukon said, might actually have RP'd every minute of their character to present those stats. OR

Like some of my characters, had been pressured by popular consensus to make sure those stats were altered. I have been in several RP moments when my characters have felled to peer pressure and upped something like charisma... by taking lessons in how to behave, so they were nolonger tactless, ect.

But.... alas. *throws in her two tainted red scents from Malagor*

Mariela · Post by **Mariela** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:26 pm

How do we role play this? In a table top version a DM would be like. Hmm, you have a 16 wisdom. Yeah, you shouldnt do that. OR You have a wisdom of 7 looks like you dont know any better and feel like you should do it!
_________________

Here's how I look at my stats as I Role Play:
I am going to use one of my character's status to explain.. she is a level 16 rogue.. for information sakes...

STR : strong
She can open a jar if it's stuck. It's really a combat tag, so I kinda ignore it in RP unless.. well someone hands her a bottle to open. One figures she can probably pick up most things.

INT : smart
I concider myself personally in real life smart. So..I figure most general things about a sitution I can come up with, she can. Intellegence to me is always about the facts and figures you can do in your head. It's not about wether or not it's a GOOD IDEA to do them. It's the book smarts rather than street smarts. You can be really really smart, a genius and forget to turn the stove off and burn your own apartment down.

WIS : average
Hello Street smarts. This is when you combine your worldly experiance and kinda wrap it up with a bow with your intellegence. As you can see, she's average. Which means.. every now and again, if it's complicated, she will still argue the point that she is right... cause... well it made sense in that book I read. So what if the book was fiction. This is also where I kinda stick gut reactions. Would she really look at this guy and say.. Ooo creepy don't talk to him? Since she's average, averagely speaking, your first reaction to people isn't... KILL!

DEX : nimble
Dex, like strength is a combat term. I use this to sort of reflect in my description even though I have seen some really dexerious large people who shouldn't be as flexible or dexterious in real life as they are. I basically give this stat, like strength some combative things. If someone smotes at me that they are giong to take a swipe at me.. I attempt to move quickly away. If they let me with their next smote.. awesome. If not.. apparently not quick enough. This is also the stat that I always thought gives you that shifty.... sort of secrative apperance. With high levels of it, you look like a deer, ready to bolt at any moment..

| CON : healthy
Combat stat. I look like I am not dying. WHee. Has a blush to my cheeks, looks like I would make good orc food. It doesnt' come up that often.

| CHA : friendly
Look at that. She's friendly. T hat means she greets people, tryings to have a good time when it's appropriate. Still means she has a wicked temper if you trip her off.. but it's more than just how she looks. Some people will find her very attractive, but most will find her someone they need to talk to. Not like falling over need to talk to, but she's someone who makes a warm glow around her. She makes you want to speak to her. However, that does not mean she doesn't say something completely stupid... (See Wisdom) Or is wrong.. (See intellegence.)

| LCK : average
I have no idea how you would RP a luck trait. Other than if you are really lucky, you probably know it and flaunt it.

Swagger is a lovely thing. It could be also seen as sort of your confidence. The more likely things are to go your way, the more you would be boisterious. But that's a suggestion...

Ta da.