Attitude Toward Faith Enemies

Shabanna · Post by **Shabanna** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:34 pm

In FK most faiths(that I am aware of) have an opposing faith. I would like to ask how others RP this? Particularly in social settings such as the square.

Is it inappropriate for one to RP a hatred for a person of the opposing faith? (I am NOT speaking of a Pkill situation... Just a simple expressing of distaste.) If it is appropriate, I am looking for suggestions to keep this sort of RP interesting and relevant.

May Fortune walk with you on your journies!
The Banna

Argentia · Post by **Argentia** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 6:56 pm

I think it is completely appropriate to RP an extreme distaste of an enemy faith. I think it is poor form to treat a person of opposing faith as "just another Joe" and talk casually with them.

I'll give an example of the faith I am most familiar with, Ilmater's. Of course Ilmater's sworn enemy is Loviatar. However, different members of the faith will have different attitudes and take different courses regarding them. Take for example two orders of Paladins, The Order of the Golden Cup and the Champions of the Noble Heart. Paladins of the Golden Cup always help protect and heal the wounded, sick, and young. In the presence of a Lovite they would protect those who need it and undo what the Lovite has done. As for Paladins of the Noble Heart, they would actively seek out Lovites to bring down the source of what they percieve as the greatest evil. Golden Cup Paladins would most likely be more civil in the presence of an enemy and pray for their redemption. Noble Heart Paladins may instead believe that redemption for such a person would be too long of a road, allowing too many to suffer along the way. They instead may wish a painless death upon the person. But NEVER would either Paladin Order act friendly with a Lovite and would NEVER stand idely by while one blasphemes or commits evil acts.(This is not to say they would not be passive, but they would not be idle)

So in my opinion, it is perfectly fine to be extremely against members of the opposite faith. They are, after all, sworn enemies. But it is up to you how aggressive or passive you wish to be; that is something that must be appropriate to your character and cannot be generalized, I think.

Gwain · Post by **Gwain** » Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:26 pm

There are veiws of ethos, as long as you are strong in your faith and never express doubt in doctrine and spirit you cannot lose even in death or defeat. Be subtle and observe your enemy and work to undermine his work, never lower yourself to their level or raise yourself to their level. Speak out only to contradict or remove validity from an opponents claims and do so only in a way icly done and tastefully. Making fun of a person based on other traits devalues your own creditbility.
Denounce their works if they pertain to their ethos of evil or good. Inform them of their pure evil or sickeningly sweet goodness in the face of all that is in the world. The important thing is to observe and learn. Being a firebrand might get things done in the shortrun but to truly Know thy enemy through way and practice is a great way to deal with enemies of faith....unless they tie your to a stake and burn you while your observing.
Then jogging is the way.

Nysan · Post by **Nysan** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:58 am

I'm not an observer by trade for nothing.

They represent everything you think is icky and unpleasent in the world. Yep, thats THEM. Does that mean you should try and set them on fire or poke them with sharp objects every time you see them? Maybe. Is that how your character's rp would do it? There is more to fighting the enemy of you and your faith than with spells, prayers, and sharp pointy things. As long as you do something to improve your own faith and/or hinder theirs, you're doing what you are expected to do. Could be poking/burning them, or spreading the word about what they really are, ensuring vendors don't sell to them, ect, ect ect. It all depends on YOUR rp. Not my opinion, not his's, not her's, not even the market square guard's opinion (and Bob has lots of opinions and he loves to share if you offer him the right snacks). As long as you rp your reaction according to your character's rp, according to the rules/regulations of your faith, according to what your faith "higher ups" expect you can do pretty much as you wish.
Just accept the reactions to your actions. Nysan does poke back!

N.R.

Misty · Post by **Misty** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:36 pm

When Misty encounters a Tempurian in the same room as her, say the Market Square.. she will tend to be very obvious with her distaste. She makes very snide comments and will glare at them when they dare speak. As Sune is not Tempus' foe (just vice versa) the Tempurians usually don't know what's going on at the beginning, but after a while they either ignore her, or take the bait and thus begins a civilised argument. Misty isn't one to get her hands dirty, so it would never lead to bloodshed (afterall, why would she fight when she is arguing WHY there should be no battles?) She is very full of herself (have you noticed?) and doesn't like anyone winning an argument, especially not a Tempurian!

Misty

Cret · Post by **Cret** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:45 pm

Ive noticed that people put all this into a black and white format. I am a Gondite and you are a Talosian. Therefore, I am Gond you are Talos and we are (im)mortal enemies.

While I think this is great and all. I dont think its the correct choice. Perhaps the higher ups in the faith, being learders and priests, would preach and harp about the Talosian's being supreme evil and the bane of all existance and blah blah blah. Lead crusaides of mass slaughter and death. Start up a circus and have a bear on a ball.

But why would the average Gondite attempt to irritate a talosian. Remember you as a follower of your faith, are what the people see of that faith. Why would anyone join your faith when your constantly putting someone else down, dont say anything worthwhile but "Your a talosian and should die".

Now Im not saying this should be the path of everyone. Some faiths want that attitude. However, remember you are a being first and follow the god second. (now if the dieties would have their way we would all be pure belief and nothing else) You are the face of your faith to everyone who sees you. What power do you have over your faith to condem another?

Sure there are going to be fanatics out there. And yes we should hold to the tennets of our faith. But should we constantly seek out to antigonise another faith when we have so little power to back it up?

Zilvryn · Post by **Zilvryn** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 12:45 am

Indeed, I agree with Cret, my Mielikkian ranger has been known to have drinking sessions with a Talosian pseudo-ranger...

They just don't talk theology..

Argentia · Post by **Argentia** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:57 am

I still believe one should not be "chummy-chummy" with a member of the opposing faith. When you join a faith you are essentially swearing to uphold the faith's dogma, believe wholeheartedly in its teachings, and spread its word/deeds whenever possible. To do any less would be to pledge half-hearted loyalty to an all-powerful Diety.

A member of the opposing faith stands for everything you are against. They undo what you have done and redo what you have undone; they are your foil. Their morals tend to be your morals except flipped upside down. You are two sides of a coin. You are oil and they are viniger and everyone else is hot sauce. Granted, oil and viniger taste good on food, but that is because they add to the balance of the flavor. Although when left to sit together they do not mix.

I've managed to make myself hungry, so I'll move on.

In short, would you be friends with someone who stood for what you stood against? It is of course up to the player's RP and the character's personality to decide how confrontational you wish to be about opposing faiths, IE some people would outright hunt faith enemies, others would argue only when in contact but would avoid a fight, some might seek to subtley undermine enemy faith's plans and activities, and still others may simply flee to avoid confrontation. There are limitless possibilities. Not everyone must be a fanatic, but no one should disregard the seperation of enemy faiths, in my opinion.

Zilvryn · Post by **Zilvryn** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:05 am

actually, take oil and vinegar add some pepper and a tsp of mustard and you have salad dressing.

And the follower of Talos I mentioned thinks like a ranger, he just goes about things a different way. I have plenty of friends whom I am like that with, for example, most of my friends were staunchly anti-war in Iraq, where as I signed up to join the army very soon after war was declared because I thought (and still do) that it was the right thing to be doing.

My point is you can have a sociable, even pleasant relationship with someone whos ideas and motives are different to your own, it all depends on the people involved.

Kregor · Post by **Kregor** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:13 am

While I do advocate that an individual shapes his or her RP, I also feel that in matters of faith, the dogma of your faith weighs in heavily on your personal RP, and your reactions when confronted with matters of that faith.

For example, Torm's church would never have *any* thing to do with the Cyrist church, other than its upheaval. The church of Mielikki holds Malar and Talos as dire enemies, so much so that rangers in their training on FK, regardless of their own faith -- and the patron diety of your class would be revered in addition to any patron you may have, this *IS* polytheism, after all -- are taught to deal with Malarites and Talosians at any cost.

As Argentia said, the church(es) that are considered your foes are anathema to your faith, they are to be resisted, subdued, and in the eyes of true fanatics or idealists, removed. Whether it be by word, by deed, or by sword... *that* part is up to your RP.

Consider when one pledges a faith, they are no longer the average lay worshipper who fleetingly focuses his attentions to whatever god is needed at the moment for whatever aspect of that god's portfolio is needed help in. They are pledging onesself a champion of that faith, and basically saying their God's desires are their desires, and their God's teachings are their gospel.

There would still be homage to other dieties for aspects of their portfolios paid at times of need, but the enemies of one's patron would doubtfully be courted, in the belief that their patron's power will trump their enemies' in that aspect.

It's not simply a matter of good/evil. One could conceivably have a good person who will be cordial in the company of an evil, or vice versa, and their dieties may be of differing alligns as well, but if their dieties are not foes of one another, then you lack that tension to start with. There *are* dieties, after all, that accept followers of any alignment. Alignment is a different dynamic than faith. Faith is arguably much more important in the Forgotten Realms setting, and much less tolerant to opposing dogma.

Does that mean I would attack a faith enemy in MS? Not unless they attacked someone or did something harmful first. Would I glare at them, growl at them, complain about the smell in the area with them around? Quite possibly. Not give them the time of day? Most definitely!

As I see it, it doesn't really work to guage our behaviour towards other faiths IC by most current day attitudes of ethos and faith. Most modern religious thought is too watered down with western ideals, humanism, tolerance and multiculturalism to truly reflect the dogmas and attitudes within an ancient polythiestic culture, or between two such cultures.

Alaudrien · Post by **Alaudrien** » Thu Apr 21, 2005 6:15 pm

I totally agree kregor. When in this type of setting most of us westerners have that mind set. Live and let live of the people around us. But when rping back in the culture like in FK or FR its just slightly more intense.

<--------------- IC INFORMATION DELETED -------------------->

Please make sure not to put IC information in posts.

Kirkus · Post by **Kirkus** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:42 am

There seems to be quite a bit of anti-talosian feelings out there. What did we forget to invite you one of our world famous parties? The cake was good the punch was tasty, all in all it was a blast...... huh funny talos pun. hahahaha. We really do throw good parties.... but for all of your mean comments your not invited. HA.

Alright now down to business. The biggest thing I want to point out is that almost every god has more than one enemy. It just happens that we only code one. Awsome rprs are the guys/gals that know most of their gods enemies and know why they don't like them. I personally try to train all newbie followers of talos the other gods that are our enemies besides chauntea. We don't descriminate in our hate for all things non destruction!

As for how to deal with your enemies that will depend on many things. The area in which you are in, what type or sect of the church you are in. Take Chauntea the Faiths and Avatars book sites two sects the Pastorals and the True Shapers. The Pastorals are the ministers to farmes and agricultural types while the True Shapers are more wilderness inclined. The Pastorals would in my opinion feel more opposed to Talona for poisoning the watering hole and bringing blight and famon to the land. But the True Shapers will be more like what we have in game and favour Talos as their biggest enemies for our constant disturction.

Forgoil · Post by **Forgoil** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:21 am

Oh hey I was checking out the faiths and saw something interesting. Alright, Sune considers Tempus an enemy but Tempus has no enemies that are listed on the forums or the deities page rather. So say like Algon fro example or maybe Gidan. How would they act towards a follower of Sune? Would they act like they are the average Joe or treat them as an enemy of that faith?

Argentia · Post by **Argentia** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:34 am

First, let me say that it might be a good idea to refrain from using character's names on the boards(unless it is your own character's) because the player may or may not wish their character mentioned... It's sort of just a precaution and a courtesy to other players. =)

Anyway, back to the question. I recall reading that while Sune considers Tempus an enemy, because war is an "ugly" thing, Tempus does not consider Sune an enemy because such a rivalry is a waste of His time. Faiths and Avatars says...

Sune, who considers him a foe, he regards as irrelevant and flighty, and therefore unworthy of being his foe.

So, while I can't say how a Tempurian would react to a Sunite, I hope that helps you in determining what your character might do. =)

Elwin · Post by **Elwin** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:24 pm

I personally would think a Tempurian wouldn't treat a Sunite any differently than anyone else. Maybe rolling his eyes at them when they make rude comments about him. Just like Argentia posted, it says that Tempus sees Sune's hatred as irrelevant, so I doubt he would waste his time any more so than any other person. Perhaps even less, as a Sunite is not a fighter and wouldn't be considered a worthy adversary.

Algon · Post by **Algon** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:06 pm

Algon is on a kill the with kindness kick

Very fun RP to watch how the Sunites react when algon walks in and gives then a big hug and asks how they have been. lol

But no Tempus does not consider Sune an enemy. He thinks she is to ditsy to even worry about :p hehe

Kilak · Post by **Kilak** » Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:45 pm

And this is why I enjoy playing characters that don't worship one god on high, but pay homage to multiple gods when the particular need arrises.

Kilak, my dwarven character, has tattooes on his body for 3 different Dwarven gods:
Clangeddin Silverbeard, Father of Battle
Moradin, the Soul Forger
Haela Brightaxe, Luckmaiden and Lady of the Fray

During battle, Kilak will occasionally call out to Clangeddin to guide his axe, but will also whisper a quick prayer to Haela when doing something that is dangerous and he needs some luck. Heck, he's offered a prayer to Ilmater for raising him when he died. Yes, he venerates Clangeddin more so than the others, but that's partially because I had a RP session where I actually met Clangeddin's Avatar.

Now yes, it is different for him as he isn't a cleric/priest. However, one has to remember that just like in ancient Rome or Greece, you would pay homage to multiple gods for different things, only the big bad clerics/priests were limited to one.

So my comments I guess are more aimed at non-priests; but still, one has to remember that above all else, this is a polytheistic society.

Oh, and one more thing. I believe it would be proper RP to have a Talosian talking to an enemy. If I am going to try and subvert someone or bring about destruction, you bet I am going to try and hide my true faith, and convince them someone innocent is really the talosian. Priests are allowed to be subtle.

Dugald · Post by **Dugald** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:10 pm

That's an very good point Kilak, and one that isn't brought up enough.

On that same note, since it is polytheistic there is no real first commandment edicts for /most/ deities. A priest of Sune would have no problem praying to Umberlee (evil or not, she's the one that will sink ya if you don't) for a safe voyage on a long trip - it's just the way it works in polytheism, it is why many cities in Faerun allow "evil" temples within their walls. Praying to a god does not equate revering a god. And praying to Loviatar before a birth, begging to lessen the pain of labor, isn't a bad idea in the slightest...but maybe you should save the bedside shrine for Helm

And as far as opposing religions go, it's tough. It'd probably be different from religion to religion. Most evil religions, ironically, tend to be more willing to converse...because, to quote Animal House "We need the dues!", and a silver tongue can do that better than just killing them. Good religions, knowing this, likely avoid conversations with their opposing faithful for that very reason. But if the good pc knew the evil pc beforehand, I think a civil conversation could be had, without a doubt.

-------------

Also, as in many polytheistic pantheons, if you travel to a different "land" you'd likely feel better off praying to that lands gods along with your primary. Right now, with the areas that are coded, it wouldn't come up that often. But if you somehow found yourself in the Underdark, you'd probably feel more immediate connections to the gnomish or drow pantheon, than what is commonly held on the surface.

You can honor even the gods you hate the most, your religion isn't one deity, your religion is a pantheon of deities...and sometimes even more than one pantheon! But, obviously, if you choose to dedicate yourself to a small aspect of your religion - much like worshippers of a specific saint in catholicism - you may be forced to deal with certain followers of other deities in a presuggestive way. Only research into your PC's god will tell you what is appropriate - but in general most everyone can exist without screaming at eachother.

Forgoil · Post by **Forgoil** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:12 am

Not to try and nail you or anything Kilaad but I know what your trying to say but Sune very much dislikes the Furies which Umberlee happens to be one of them.

She dislikes the Gods of Fury (Talos and his follower deities). Despite this, she has no true enemies among the gods

But Umberlee sees Sune as an enemy.

Umberlee is strongly opposed to Selûne whose stars guide navigators at sea, Valkur who guides travellers safely home, and Sune whose beauty makes her green with envy.

In cases like these I'd imagine that the follower of Sune would be praying to Valkur but say I had somebody who followed a god and met up with a follower of another god who's deities do not get along with another but are not quite considered enemies. Would they treat each other the same way as enemies only a little less intense, or would they just kinda be like..ohh..he follows that god and then just be on their way?

Raona · Post by **Raona** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:45 am

Forgoil wrote:...say I had somebody who followed a god and met up with a follower of another god who's deities do not get along with another but are not quite considered enemies. Would they treat each other the same way as enemies only a little less intense, or would they just kinda be like..ohh..he follows that god and then just be on their way?

Sadly, I think you can take your cues from real life on this one, as the situation certainly arises as much in the modern world as it did in the archaic. When members of different religions run into each other, especially when they don't know much about the other religion, their reactions usually range from ignoring the difference to obvious discomfort, with "Oh! I see...how...interesting..." to "boy, what a weird set of beliefs" and "well, that's stupid...why would anyone beleive that?" as common internal reactions.