Orc and Human Treaty - History/OOC Considerations?

[Raona]

Until yesterday, I'd only visited the orc encampment once - long enough to read the sign there, respect it, and move on. That was a *long* time ago, so I may be mis-remembering things, but I swore that it spoke of a broader treaty than it does now. My memory is fraught with error, though, and this is important to getting the RP right, so while I'll be seeking information on this IC, here I'd like to ask some rather OOC questions about it:

1) Is the treaty on the skin presently active, that is, still in force?

2) Is it the only treaty presently governing orc relations with other races?

3) Are any of the paladins referred to in the treaty still active in the game, or is there a book chronicling how it came to pass? (That is, do I have a hope of learning of it IC? Don't tell me how, but if you know whether it is possible, please just say that!)

4) Is there a human version of the treaty recorded anywhere? I couldn't find anything on the forums mentioning it, but perhaps there is something in-game?

5) Are there any OOC considerations that went into the creation of the treaty, that should be taken into consideration when deciding its future?

Thanks in advance for your help, sensitive to not giving away what can and should be determined ICly if possible.

[Kregor]

1) Is the treaty on the skin presently active, that is, still in force?

Yes the treaty is still mostly considered in force, but, like any treaty, it has it's no-fly zone disputes.

2) Is it the only treaty presently governing orc relations with other races?

The treaty, specifically, is in regards to the relations between Waterdeep and the human cities, and the orc village. The complete text of the treaty on the sign is as follows:

"Dere iz now a truce dat comes between deh Paladins of Wateh Deep
and deh Big Bosses of dis Orc Village. Deh Oomins and dere allyz
are to keep away from village. Deh Orcs will stop dere raidin of
Water Deep and dem otheh Oomin cities between village and
Wateh Deep. An attack on our village will mean War on deh
Oomins. Till den Orcs who go to dese Oomin places and anger
Oomins into raiding village will 'ave hot brands mark dem as
traitors and den dey will be taken apart real slow."

Note that the treaty applies to the human cities, specifically. Not a broad-sweeping "well be nice to all the other races" kind of thing. And it only applies to orcs entering and raiding the cities. The minute humans enter the orc lands, you're on their turf, and all bets are off.

3) Are any of the paladins referred to in the treaty still active in the game, or is there a book chronicling how it came to pass? (That is, do I have a hope of learning of it IC? Don't tell me how, but if you know whether it is possible, please just say that!)

4) Is there a human version of the treaty recorded anywhere? I couldn't find anything on the forums mentioning it, but perhaps there is something in-game?

That I know of, there is no written, coded in the game copy of the treaty short of the sign in the orc village. As far as the paladins who were involved in its signing, the answer is no, none of them are active anymore. The last known active knight, Andreas, seems to be permanently lost to us.

5) Are there any OOC considerations that went into the creation of the treaty, that should be taken into consideration when deciding its future?

Yes, one BIG OOC consideration: Shilmista doesn't count in the treaty. It's a popular thing to come running down to Shilmista to see if the orc logged on the who list is there training, so some goody can "protect" the forest, but its not considered a violation of any treaty for an orc to be there. Shilmista is a *leveling area* for the orcs - no different than the Howling Peaks are to the races of Waterdeep, and frankly, the only leveling area that the orcs have that is really ICly appropriate. And quite frankly, it's no more nice, or "fair", for high level goodies to come in threatening lowbie orcs training there, than it is for evils to go camp at Howling Peaks and harass the lowbie goodies.

[Raona]

Thank you, Kregor - that helps a great deal.

Yes, one BIG OOC consideration: Shilmista doesn't count in the treaty. It's a popular thing to come running down to Shilmista to see if the orc logged on the who list is there training, so some goody can "protect" the forest, but its not considered a violation of any treaty for an orc to be there. Shilmista is a *leveling area* for the orcs - no different than the Howling Peaks are to the races of Waterdeep, and frankly, the only leveling area that the orcs have that is really ICly appropriate. And quite frankly, it's no more nice, or "fair", for high level goodies to come in threatening lowbie orcs training there, than it is for evils to go camp at Howling Peaks and harass the lowbie goodies.

Does this mean that elves in, passing by, or hearing of orcs in Shilmista have latitude to "ignore" their actions there, without offending their kin, gods, and self-respect?

"Dere iz now a truce dat comes between deh Paladins of Wateh Deep
and deh Big Bosses of dis Orc Village. Deh Oomins and dere allyz
are to keep away from village. Deh Orcs will stop dere raidin of
Water Deep and dem otheh Oomin cities between village and
Wateh Deep. An attack on our village will mean War on deh
Oomins. Till den Orcs who go to dese Oomin places and anger
Oomins into raiding village will 'ave hot brands mark dem as
traitors and den dey will be taken apart real slow."

I wasn't sure if it was OK to quote it - but it being here on the table, it helps a great deal. What does the stricture against allies of the humans entering the village mean for elves? Can they give chase into the village? Can they enter there without violating the treaty?

[Dalvyn]

Yes, one BIG OOC consideration: Shilmista doesn't count in the treaty. It's a popular thing to come running down to Shilmista to see if the orc logged on the who list is there training, so some goody can "protect" the forest, but its not considered a violation of any treaty for an orc to be there. Shilmista is a *leveling area* for the orcs - no different than the Howling Peaks are to the races of Waterdeep, and frankly, the only leveling area that the orcs have that is really ICly appropriate. And quite frankly, it's no more nice, or "fair", for high level goodies to come in threatening lowbie orcs training there, than it is for evils to go camp at Howling Peaks and harass the lowbie goodies.

This part makes absolutely no sense at all.

We are talking about an IC treaty that would exempt an area for an OOC reason - because it's a "leveling area"? I actually was not aware that we had any "leveling areas" in Forgotten Kingdoms. What is a "leveling area"? An area where you do not have to roleplay and can behave OOCly as long as you are grinding mobs to (skill-)level up? Come on, now.

Now, my answer here is not really about the treaty itself, but more about this point that you have raised in two different threads: high-level characters in Shilmista.

1. It's OOCly wrong for any high level to go and harrass low level characters, and/or to go on a pkill rampage - especially when targeting low-level characters. This stands, no matter where you are, and no matter what alignment you are.

2. You seem to equate high-level goodies patroling Shilmista with high-level evils patroling Howling Peaks, but I do not agree. High-level goodies have IC reasons to go and protect the elves/dwarves/humans of Shilmista, because creatures of those races tend to help each other. On the other hand, high-level evils from Zhentil Keep or orcs from the orc village would need a very good reason to come and protect goblins in a far-away mine. With yet another perspective: if a community of elves/dwarves/humans is constantly raided by orcs, they will call for help and their call will most likely be answered; the goblins of Howling Peak would most likely not call for help, and if they did, nobody would most likely answer (except very special circumstances).

I have never understood why Shilmista was put there, so close to the Orc Village. Such a situation clearly calls for conflict between the orcs and the high level goodies. A solution would perhaps to create another area, with low-level monsters (as opposed to civilized creatures that will naturally incite the goodies to defend them). The good thing about evil is that they can train on both good and evil mobs.

[Kregor]

Does this mean that elves in, passing by, or hearing of orcs in Shilmista have latitude to "ignore" their actions there, without offending their kin, gods, and self-respect?

In passing by... is a very touchy phrase, seeing in many cases, it is active seeking out that results in an encounter. Either way, it would be nice to expect the same rules of courtesy in facing an orc in shilmista as facing a PC anywhere else in the game. If it's an obvious lowbie PC with plain armour bits still on, then the newbie friendly guidelines should still apply. If you are nowhere near Shilmista, remember that pkill rules FORBID you to travel across the overland map in order to engage in a PvP situation. You CAN'T reach it in time, unless you can teleport, and this is covered plainly in the rules in the policies section. Otherwise, common sense, the same common sense that would be given to a PC anywhere else in the game, and take the point that, if you are offered an IC out, and you REALLY don't wanna pkill, then take the out.

[Raona]

I have never understood why Shilmista was put there, so close to the Orc Village. Such a situation clearly calls for conflict between the orcs and the high level goodies. A solution would perhaps to create another area, with low-level monsters (as opposed to civilized creatures that will naturally incite the goodies to defend them). The good thing about evil is that they can train on both good and evil mobs.

Is there any possibility an orc-appropriate area for learning the ropes could be put in within the orc camp? Perhaps given the nature of orc culture, they could even train by fighting other orcs, be it PvP or against orc mobs from a rival clan? Or it could be an encampment of attacking elves, being fought off by the orcs (as for the gnomes elsewhere)? [Could that very area in gnomeland be slightly modified and grafted onto the orc village without too much overhead?]

Or perhaps a second orc village could be installed near the first, it being a rival village, and then orcs from one clan could travel to the other and be seen as invaders there? (Make two race files, maybe, bloodaxe orc and warpaint orc, or something like that?) Perhaps orc vs. orc RP would be a boon to things - might that enhance orc RP opportunities? (I pity the clan leader set up opposite Graf, though!)

I don't like the concept of leveling areas either, but I certainly understand how orcs presently feel hunted the moment they leave the camp with no relatively safe place in the "outside world" to go, and how Shilmista has come to attain its special status. That said, it has repeatedly served as a spark point for conflict because of players either not knowing of or not accepting its special status, and I don't see that changing going forward. There will always be new players who don't know. It would be great if young orcs had "something to do" in the same way that young goodies do with Howling Peaks, though. Shilmista might then become a place to go if your PC did indeed want to say "bring it on" by their presence there, be they orc or orc enemy.

Would it ruin the IC feeling of things to add an OOC notice at the entrance to Shilmista? That way even new players who were not around "the last time" would know about it?

I'm just trying to throw out constructive and ideally relatively easy-to-implement ideas to help what seems to be a problem that repeatedly that causes frustrations on all sides. Orcs don't like it raining elves every time they step foot outside their village, and elves don't like seeing their kin killed and desecrated with orcish elan.

[Kregor]

I actually was not aware that we had any "leveling areas" in Forgotten Kingdoms. What is a "leveling area"? An area where you do not have to roleplay and can behave OOCly as long as you are grinding mobs to (skill-)level up? Come on, now.

We digress a bit from the topic to take this turn, but...

I think you and I agree much more than disagree, Dalvyn, when it comes to leveling in the game, and I was not insinuating that training within Shimista should be taken and done OOCly. As my post above states, as well as yours, the real issue is the matter of high level PCs coming from across the map to engage orcs and orc camp creatures.

Now, the digression part, "leveling area", in it's plainest of terms, is an area that exists primarily for the purpose of training. To say that FK does not have those would be highly incorrect, because the definition would encompass:

1) The newbie temples: The only purpose is to serve as exp fodder for newbie characters. End of story.

2) Every training area with dummies/chained up slaves in every temple and guild hall that has them everywhere in the game. These are essentially helpless mobs that are used primarily by those who use them as exp and skillup devices. This would include the Halls of Justice, the Temple of Cyric, the bard schools, and others.

3) Areas like the Shadowlands, and Howling Peak, which aside from one short wham bam quest in each, then are useless for anything but for PCs to run through and practice.

I don't think the solution is to remove them all, because, quite frankly, you hear it from me now, an occasional bout of training is not necessarily a bad thing. In a system where we are forced to improve by doing, and where the exp for mobs has been now essentially reduced to the point that mobs slain in the course of a quest equal no gain toward another level, it becomes a necessary fact of mud life. One that should be moderated, not eliminated, or nerfed to the point that casual gamers and frequent RPers are the ones who end up being penalized more than the people who don't mind doubling their mindless grind time to achieve their previous results. The grinders still come out on top, and the RPers pay the price with 20th level characters that would die at the hand of the first bully who's living for the pkill.

[Kregor]

Sorry, it double posted :/

[Dalvyn]

Actually, I disagree.

The newbie temples are not "training areas". They are mostly there so that players have something to do while waiting to have their name authorized. And even though some other areas do not have much in terms of quests, they are still part of the IC Forgotten Realms (except for the Shadowlands, which make absolutely no sense, and that might actually be removed or revamped). No area qualifies as a "training area" because nothing sets them apart: training there is not "protected" with any special policies.

And I never suggested to remove those areas, nor was my post against "training". The main point of my post was to underline that there were no "protected areas" in which low level characters could avoid the IC consequences of their actions. If you kill elves/humans/orcs in Shilmista, expect to be hunted by allies. And if those mobs get slaughtered regularly, expect to find protectors in those areas. The fact that those mobs are low level and that the area is next to the orc camp does not mean that new orcs should be able to train them safely. I'm not saying that it's fine for high level to bully them into pkills, but high level goodies certainly have good reasons to patrol those areas.

So, to sum up my points.

1 - It's not fine for high level character to bully low level characters into pkills. No matter where they are.

2 - It's all fine and IC for goodies to patrol Shilmista. If that means that new orcs are left with no area in which to train, then there is an area problem and interested orcs should apply to build a new area with low level monsters that would not be defended by goodies instead of blaming the high-level goodies who act ICly.

[Larethiel]

The rp that took place didn't develop from a high level goody seeking to bully low level orcs around, I'm very sure that no one of those involved where seeking to bully anyone around, and as far as I know most of the involved orcs were far from being weak. Imo it was great rp and if not in Shilmista, where should one look for orcish PCs, if you'd like to rp with orcs more often than the short accidental encounter somewhere every now and then?

Considering the replies that were already made, I am not sure, is it good or bad to take a look into Shilmista every now and then, when you are a high level PC and see if someone is around. That opens opportunities for rp, too, imo. Anyway, many orcs that are in Shilmista, are not low level and are totally capable of defending themselves against a goody or a whole band of goodies

Kregor's post leads me to another question, is it forbidden to travel over the map to get to Shilmista if you know there's trouble there? Not the "I-think-there-could-be-an-orc-PC-want-to-play?" cause but a situation during which a good PC ICly calls for allies or is in the need of aid against other PCs?

[Raona]

Kregor's post leads me to another question, is it forbidden to travel over the map to get to Shilmista if you know there's trouble there? Not the "I-think-there-could-be-an-orc-PC-want-to-play?" cause but a situation during which a good PC ICly calls for allies or is in the need of aid against other PCs?

I was going to quote the PK helpfile to answer this question for the general case, but am a bit chagrined to realize that it doesn't currently say anything to address it! I recently revised it, so that omission rests on my own shoulders - but I don't believe that any of the old in-game helps addressed this either, or it would have been pulled into the new version. There was a policy forum posting that covered it, but reference to same should be (and will be) added to the helpfile. Please see
http://www.gallwey.com/fk/board/viewtopic.php?t=3949
and
http://www.gallwey.com/fk/board/viewtopic.php?t=5089

Larethiel, did you get, and respond to, the echo Paskry mentions in the second posting, "The trees wisper: 'Elves in Shilmista need aid!' "? If so, perhaps this echo really should be disabled, if the conflicts it encourages are not desired on either side.

Unfortunately the FK Policy post (first link above) does not, as best I can tell, address what travel is and is not acceptable *before* a PK situation develops, and I think this may need clarification. Should the same distance rules apply to PC1 spotting PC2 and calling in backup, in preparation for a confrontational RP? The question is raised in the second link, and Balek takes a stab at it, but the answer seems hesitant, and is certainly not generally adhered to.

In light of conflicting comments in this post, I remain unclear on whether special rules apply to Shilmista. But the general situation of picking on weaker characters or doing things you could reasonably expect would ruin the game for anyone being verboten certainly applies.

[Lukon]

I would just like to digress slightly and beg; Please don't destroy the Shadowlands! The ability to train up a character has already been seriously retarded of late, and as far as I can tell, there's not all THAT much else available to lowbies around Tangled Trees.

But on the orc/human RP issue...frankly, I'd be happier if higher-level characters never went into PKill situations in the first place, but if it has to happen, it would be nice to have access to some 'safe zones' for training, perhaps as a gentleman's understanding if not a point of policy. Sometimes you just don't WANT to RP "Do things my way, run, or die" which is what many RPs with higher-level characters can devolve into.

[Lathander]

Actually, the pkill rules cited in Raona's first link DO address distance.

Once a PK situation starts can more players join in?
* PCs within a three room radius (wilderness areas) may involve themselves in the Pkill.
* PCs using instant-travel spells may involve themselves in the Pkill (wilderness/cities).
* "Teleport," "Gate" and "Pass Plant" are examples of instant-travel spells.
* "Fly" and "Levitate" are not instant-travel spells.
* PCs within a ten room radius (cities) may involve themselves in the PK.
* Mounted, flying and levitating PCs have no range restrictions (cities)
* Hidden PCs in a room where PK develops may involve themselves, roleplay is required (see Backstabs)
* The distance rules are suspended if an imm calls the PC to join the roleplay (mob calls for help, echoes, etc.)

A pkill situation does not "begin" with the first swing of the sword. The rp taking place that reults in a pvp combat is part of the situation. If an elf and an orc meet in the woods, does it make a sound? Wait, wrong question. If an elf and an orc meet and either or both call for back-up, only those within the distance paramaters outline above may attend. An imm-invoked call for help can suspend tose paramaters. Now, if the SHilmista area has a built in echo that calls good-aligned PCs to help every time an orc kills in that area, I think we need to decide whether or not that is something we really want there.

[Raona]

If an elf and an orc meet and either or both call for back-up, only those within the distance paramaters outline above may attend.

I think the more common and problematic situation is someone spotting another PC at a distance, or stalking someone (if they can hide or become invisible), and calling in allies before they actually enter the same "map square" as the other PC. Does a "PK situation" begin when someone decides that they are going to engage another PC, or when they actually do so? I think the former would imply a rule amounting to a restriction on calling in allies, period.

(If you want help available for anything that may arise, travel with it...and/or yell "help!" and see if anyone cares...how far does a yell carry, I wonder?)

[Lathander]

We can discuss it and see what people think. Maybe this should be its own thread. My thought is that calling in those allies before confronting someone is fine, if they could reasonably get there IC.

[Kregor]

Yell echoes through an entire area. Where this poses a problem is in Wilderness areas. because the IC distance of each tick on the wilderness map is approximately 33 miles. So a yell in the wilderness area is not a good gauge of whether you are in responding distance or not.

As far as the question of, seeing someone in an area you WISH to confront PvP, and calling in reinforcements from all over the map to help. This sounds to me like nothing but a workaround to the rule, not much different than working around code. If the *intent* is for PvP, then it should come under the same restiction as the actual confrontation. And the distance to travel across the map would *still* be too far to engage said threat before it no longer becomes a threat. If you want to make sure you have reinforcements when you travel to Shilmista to scout around, party up and bring them with.

[Shabanna]

Just a thought... perhaps the topic of traveling to Shilmista and calling for aid in the event of RP confrontation be broken off and a new thread made? I believe the original post was a question about the treaty between the Orcs and Waterdeep. But, it seems that the topic has seriously digressed. lol

Thanks
Banna