Waterdeep square

Zuldere · Post by **Zuldere** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:28 pm

I know icly that the Lord of waterdeep placed a ward on the square to prevent recalling there and to dispell inviblity. I was wondering if said Lord payed for such that they would not make it imposible to hide within the square as well? point 1 there is a guard there I would think that he is highly skilled at his job and would spot anyone hiding about or sneaking plus the square is suronded by building would not said Lords have guards ontop of these building watching out for thief or people hiding and sneaking about?

Mele · Post by **Mele** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:41 pm

It's impossible to hide standing in the market. It's possible to sneak into the Market hidden.

This isn't 2007 on FK, I think people standing on buildings checking for spies is a bit advanced for the time of FK, personally.

lol So discussion of thieves losing steal, and now not being able to sneak about and spy in the place most people meet and converse? EeeEee

It is possible to cast invisible right in the Market and be invisable, as well. You can sneak in invisible and it will not be dispelled.

Zilvryn · Post by **Zilvryn** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:04 am

The market would ICly be full of people and traders, it would be easy to hide in there for a skilled thief.

Nowadays, when you're surveilance trained, even with todays gadgets its still hard to spot people in a crowd.

Let alone a medievil setting...

Velius · Post by **Velius** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:21 am

Pends on how good sneak/hide is I'd say ( whether or not you are aloud to hide in the market ), but about the people standing on buildings, read the "Servant of the Shard" Book 1 in the Sellswords Trilogy, the story takes place in the city of Calimport and there are guards atop the roofs of some of the buildings. I think Waterdeep would have people on buildings if Calimport does ( then again I haven't read any books that even mentioned Waterdeep so I may be wrong )

Mele · Post by **Mele** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:23 am

Um no. That is code fact.

Zilvryn · Post by **Zilvryn** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:25 am

Calimport is a desert city, flat roofs and bizarres, WD would be loosely based upon a European medievil city, no flat roofs to hang out on.

There'd be the occasional merchant/rich persons manor where they'd have guards on the rooftops/wll, but general streets and such would look very similar to this:

Oghma · Post by **Oghma** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:43 am

I always imagined Waterdeep looking like Verona or Prague in the sense of a market square.

Zilvryn · Post by **Zilvryn** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:44 am

I dunno, probably, I was only trying to illustrate how the majority of the city would be in comparison to Calimport..

Which would probably be like this (minus the modern stuff):

Living near the Shambles it was the first thing that came to mind XD

Rhytania · Post by **Rhytania** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:54 am

If WD is the supposedly one of the largest metropolitan cities in the game, and the so called market square is amongst its busiest it would be extremely easy to hide in there. Have you ever tried to find one particular person in a large city area? Look at time sqaure and imagine trying to spot someone amongst that rabble. I think the game lacks in the ability to hide in plain sight not the supernatural ability, but the regular ability to sort of 'blend' into the crowd. It also doesnt help that everyone and their brother has true sight which by canon does nothing for hiding or disguise unless it is done by magical/supernatural means, which a rogues ability is cleary not magical nor supernatural. For now I see it as a means to get by fpr sake of balancing the game, but once the spot/discern/or whatever 'counter' to hide gets fixed or coded into game, I would like to see true sight changed to be more of what it is suppose to be.

Sairaven · Post by **Sairaven** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:00 am

Being 6'7" and 300lbs in real life, I can tell you it is stupid easy to lose yourself in a crowd, even for someone that stands out as much as I do.

Imagine someone shorter and thinner, and suddenly it turns into "Where'd he go?"

Calimport, I would imagine, could have more people on the buildings, and would even support that based on canon lore. However, everything I have read about Waterdeep suggests the Euro-centric design mentioned above. Meaning it would be a lot harder to mount guards on the roof of a building.

Raona · Post by **Raona** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:56 am

I think it's realistic for folks to be able to remain unseen (or at least unnoticed) while in the market square, at least during the hours when there's trade going on there, which is the vast majority of the time. (Perhaps not the early pre-dawn hours, when presumably only adventurers are left milling about, exchanging dragon tales...you know, "It was this big, with huge wings! I can't believe it got away! But really, it was!")

I'd be more inclined to see it as being hard to steal in the square, with there being so many eyes about (again, at least during the hours the square is busy). There'd be a good chance someone would see you at work.

While I could rationalize the Lords placing a ward on the square (which was Zuldere's original suggestion, or at least one way he suggested of implementing it; I think others have already spoken to the eagle-eyed guard rationalization), I'm not really in favor, for OOC reasons. As long as folks just listen; if they psteal, plant, or otherwise try to do things that require approaching PCs standing in broad daylight, without even being visible, that I have far more trouble with, both ICly and OOCly.

Shabanna · Post by **Shabanna** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:52 pm

FYI Calimport...
is an amazingly complex city... with a lower and upper street level (the wealthy and noble actually never touch the actual ground they walk upon constructed tile and mosaic streets high atop walls and send their servants to ground level for shopping and so forth. Both upper and ground street levels sit on top of an underground Muzad area( a mass of tunnels beneath the city where all sorts of crime abounds.) Both upper and ground street levels are visible.

Lower class citizens, slaves and adventurers wander the "unhallowed" ground area which is packed at all hours of the day and fraught with crime (particularly theft, as black market business THRIVES in Calimport) Pick pockets and cutpurses are as common as sand on ground level where they easily steal and melt into the huge crowds which pack the streets.

------------------------------
Now on to my opinion...

Hiding in a crowd is possible so long as you do not think of it as invisible. If you are hidden and chatting away on your amulet. do not be surprised if SOMEONE hears you!!! I recently was in the square where a hidden rogue used their amulet and got angry because someone RPd hearing them. And argument insued that " noone could see them". that is balrderdash! cause hidden is NOT invisible!!! this seems to be a continued misconception. Someone hides , yammers away on the old amulet cause they are usd to the way amulets USED to work... and people react to the echo and the person hiding gets bent out of shape. I think if you are hiding in the square... you are doing one of two things... You are blending into the crowd or you are literally "Hidden" in a dark shadowy corner or crunched down behind a cart or a crate or something. EITHER WAY.. if someone hears you.. you are NOT hidden. Soo i would say it is a fair limitation on rogues that if you are "hidden" in the market, you need to remain silent. So you cant sit and give a play by play over your amulet as if you were invisible and undetectable! ( Anyone who has lost a kid at a ren fair *cough* or carnival because the child ducked into the crowd while you were not looking at them can attest to the possibility of getting lost in a crowd!) Sit... stay quiet or quietly move through the crowd UNNOTICED... But, beware that when you brake the silence by talking into an amulet do not be surprised when someone *notices* the sound of your whisper. And I would say... do not argue that you are UNSEEN. I would love it...if speaking into an amulet actually broke a persons hide given the new use of the item. ( but , that is another post I think)

As for stealing. Unlike some folks, I think it *is* possible to steal in a crowd. I am pretty sure anyone who has been pickpocketed in a subway or had their purse snatched while walking down a street or had a bag stolen at an airport could attest to that ( and yes, I have been robbed in public!... oddly ... I could not identify the person exactly as it occured so quickly and I even tried to stop them!!! >.<) It is possible! I do think however that pstealing creates SOOOoo much angst, even when it is done correctly, ICly and cleanly, with multiple chances to return the item...that it is just not worth the argument.

IMHO too many folks get their knickers in a knot when something does not go their way... no matter how fair or clean the steal is... that my rogues do not Psteal at all as I prefer to avoid the headache of it all.

In short I think we should not add more wards to the square or change the current allowance in the square for rogues to sneak in hidden. There are plenty of chances to fail. IF the rogue is skilled enough to hide and sneak in and the player is RPing being hidden and not "invisible" I see no reason that they should not be able to remain hidden so long as they do not RP doing something that would give them away.

All done
Shabanna