Killmode, Killing, and Murder!

[Selveem]

Did I get your attention?

What I would like to discuss is the current rules and further challenge some things that have been set as rules in Character versus Character (player kill) RPs. I encourage all player involvement (Imms are players too, IMO!) to express their feelings on the matter.

I would first like to discuss the current rule in the forums Q&A (I'd like to apologize to Oghma, too - this was not in the helpfile and I didn't even know this existed!):

Can two PCs agree OOC to smote a death after finishing combat on killmode "stun?"
No. Death code is there. Use it.

There are a number of reasons I feel that this is not a good idea. I will discuss a few of them now.

In the past, this was a rather annoying thing as it was. There were no NPC priests to save you if you died. You were forced (in most cases) to sit in Kelemvor's realm and hope someone came across your corpse or that an Immortal (especially your own God, for those that had one!) to take pity on you.

Now, finding a priest is much easier, but the player base seems far less than what it was when I first started so it evens itself out a bit. But, the NPC priests are a viable option and a truly appreciated change. Unfortunately, however, with death there is a loss of experience which is by far much harder to come by. There is the boring wait time of hoping that you can find someone willing to pay the platinum to save your sorry hide from becoming a member of Kelemvor's wall.

To be honest, I find the actual code killing to be rather annoying and even disruptive to the RP. If both sides agree that the fight can go to the stun and then the actual 'death' roleplayed out in smotes, isn't this more involved? Is it not more fun to involve the other party instead of a one-sidedly beneficial finisher? Why must the other player suffer an experience penalty loss, possible loss of irreplacable quest items/rewards (if by chance there is some freak crash), and wait around for however many hours it takes for them to be raised?


The next thing I would like to discuss are smotes.

Smotes are a powerful thing. They are the actions your character takes that affects directly other people or things within this realm. Oftentimes, the use of these smotes are dwarfed by code. Most people enjoy dueling in killmode spar. I prefer it smoted out. I find more enjoyment in others' creativity and in truth, a level 20 warrior can be struck by a lucky level 1 fighter. And, in all reality, I don't get any joy out of beating the tar out of a level 8. The use of smotes would better serve most high level characters who aren't too jaded to allow a real duel.

I do think, however, they are extremely subject to abuse and the 'help special powers' file is very helpful to cover much of this, but I have heard of cases where some players take liberties with spells that they know (whether they are uninformed, new, or blatantly abusing) to justify usage of 'abilities.'

With the way FK is coded, I'm certain many people who play wizards and priests often forget that those spells they chant are not instantaneous. Many of those spells they 'chant and complete' within a single smote actually take a round or more - by that time, a powerful fighter should have taken five swipes at them (plus, unless casting defensively, an extra attack of opportunity).

This does not, however grant divine right to use chain lightning as an arcing spell to hit specifically an amulet of communication without leaving the person attacked a chance to dodge or otherwise affect your usage of the spell. Chain lightning is not just a static charge and should not be treated like a ranged shocking grasp spell.

That being said, there are very good help files on how to duel properly that are unfortunately not linked to 'help pkill,' 'help combat,' 'help kill,' 'help murder,' or in the 'help Guidelines on Roleplaying.' You really have to root around a while before you find the real gems like 'help marcus' guide to player killing' and Dalvyn's - which I can't seem to find through normal means..

I encourage everyone to read this help file before engaging in any sort of character dueling or PC killing!

[Japcil]

Im going to flat out just say no to smoting deaths. I created a priest to RP him as a priest and expect players to RP death accordingly. By not using code death you are ruining RP for priests period small player base or big.

[Selveem]

Yeah, I'm sure that's great for you.. Until you play someone that ICly knows no one or simply is not liked by the mass of the population.

Further, you don't need to be able to raise someone from the dead through an IC death just to play your class. Why should someone else suffer for you to get joy out of playing a priest? :/

I'm sure there are plenty of code deaths out there that priests are desperately needed for. There are parties that I have seen that _always_ need a priest but never can one be found. Priests have plenty more coded abilities than just raising a dead player to ensure exp loss, raise dead fatigue, and sitting in the fugue plane twiddling their thumbs in hopes someone will come save them.

I know this kind of sounds harsh, but what you stated kind of sounds greedy. :/

[Horace]

I say if both players are down with it - do it. It's not like you're hurting or excluding anyone else. You could even get a PC priest to smote raise the dead guy. If players are out of character cool smoting everything back and forth - that's great.

I just wouldn't expect those smotes going over real well with someone who wasn't on the same page - or doesn't care to be on the same page. Mechanics are still mechanics.

[Japcil]

I'd hope that the player on the otherside takes into consideration when running a PK RP that no priests are online or that player may not be able to be ressurrected and just goto stun to teach them an IC lesson, ie get friends and travel with them.

I still say no, if you want to spare their life oocly, do it icly.

[Selveem]

Japcil,

You were very quick to respond a no vote on this. I'm curious why. If you weigh out the pros and the cons, do you truly feel the cons out-number?

I have made a few very valid points as to why I am for the allowance of smoted deaths. I feel I've been pretty thorough and have put some thought behind this.

Would you do me more justice than a quick response stating that you are violently opposed to it simply because you feel priests would get cheated a raising RP that couldn't (though I'm not sure why..) be RPed without a full-on code death?

[Horace]

There are some problems that could arise - it might even be better to just be mostly dead.

Westley: Why can't I move? Why am I up against this wall?
Fezzik: You've been mostly-dead all day.


All it would take is one person to say "i can see them breathing" and the scene would go from making sense to not making sense. Since, technically, once someone decides to not play along you can't really argue with them - because they're technically correct (the best kind of correct).

[Mele]

I'll admit I'm honestly against noncode deaths.


Death is something in FK that is generally treated far too lightly. It's my own personal opinion that deaths are very lowly rp'ed as it is. The literal last five plus deaths I have seen have come with zero smotes. No discomfort, no coughing fidgeting gasping for air. Meditating. Spamming cures(not just one or two or even "only" 15, I mean, spamming.) clapping, laughing, squealing, dressing standing and leaving.

This is not to say two roleplayers could not properly roleplay a death without code, I do believe people are perfectly capable. I just feel strongly that death on FK is not valued enough as it is.

[Japcil]

I was quick to respond with no for the exact reason that Mele stated, death is just treated too lightly and then pretending it happened and not expending the costs (exp, spell components etc) which are there for balance, what you are considering is unbalancing.

[Japcil]

I would like to add, I am not trying to be selfish by saying you ruin my rp. I may come off greedy but I feel very strong about this subject, and I think that using code is the right way to go.

The point of death is to suffer Icly and the fact that its taken lightly is why i think it makes sense to make now hard earned exp go away, maybe others will realize the extensive drain a character receives when their soul is dragged back from the realms of the dead.

[Horace]

Not that i particularly care either way - but what selveem suggested actively opposes not roleplaying it.

It's 100% roleplayed - no mechanics involved. So the idea that deaths aren't roleplayed enough as is, being used against the idea of a 100% roleplayed death, is kind of against the grain.

And the idea that something that has no mechanical vantage...even, something that exists entirely out side of mechanics is unbalancing doesn't make sense to me either.

----

I think the real problems would arise when pc's who don't agree with the smotes actions get involved (ie, someone who actually wants to mechanically raise). I think just smote'ing the combat out, and then having the "dead" guy just be comatose near death would serve the purpose you're looking for without upsetting anyone who feel like Mele and Japcil. I mean, seriously, what's really the difference between death and someone with a glascow coma scale of 3 with no palpable pulses? Just do that

The only way to determine life at that point is with a freakin stethoscope or capnography monitor...or magic, magic too would work.

[Japcil]

What is trying to be said is that most players or a select few barely RP death as it is. I cant count on my fingers(I have ten) how many times I've raised people only to have them throw on clothes and walk out as if It cost me nothing to learn the spell and buy components. How can we expect anyone to RP dying right if we cant get them to RP after-death to begin with.

Heres how its unbalanced, you should be weak when you return from the dead, well if you smote, it doesnt change your stats, therefore you don't have to RP that since you keep to your score sheet. thats why its unbalancing, because now that player can walk around afterwards without any of the other after-death affects.

What Selveem suggests does oppose not RPing it, Ill admit that, however its the fact that it seems like a work around to avoid having to deal with IC consequences of real-IC death (exp loss, priest avail, corpse retrieval, etc) If you dont want to deal with them, in my opinion, don't place yourself in an opportunity to die.

[Horace]

That's fair enough.

I just like things that promote roleplaying, even if it doesn't match up with the characters attributes from a mechical death. That part seems minor to me as long as it's being roleplayed, and contributing to a character's story in way that has consensual input from both players.

Just go with near killing, Selveem. It doesn't change anything from the roleplay aspect, and it isn't as controversial. Or at the very least, go way far out of your way to not throw it in anyone's face. Your PC's aren't doctors, you can easily just think they're dead. Alive people look stone dead all the time.

[Selveem]

So, basically from what I'm seeing here is that those that oppose a non-code death are so to... teach the character a lesson? That a code-death has consequences that an RP'd one does not? A loss of experience is necessary and wasted time on the player who lost the fight when it's been properly RP'd out and both sides do a great job on RPing the death?

What does dying in a duel/"PK" teach the person that dying to mobs does not? I'm pretty sure anyone who has reached 50 has probably died a couple times. When they died, I bet those people were (as I was) thinking, "God, this really sucks. I could be doing so many other things than waiting for a full party of people strong enough to come online to help me!"

In most cases, people don't "die" for an OOC 10 minutes. Most of the time it's well over an hour. In some cases well over days. If you're not online, guess what? Your corpse sits there and no one can help you. So, if you're one of the unlucky ones, here is what you face: multiple days sitting for hours on end on a character that has yet to be saved. The MUD you came to RP on is now seeming more a waste of your time because if you play another character, you can't get back _in_ the game with your beloved current character. You are unable to participate and contribute in RPs with others.

This is a game that promotes RP. How can the player RP in the fugue aside from "smote stares down at his corpse, hoping someone will find him/her." "smote weeps sadly for their own loss." Um.. I'm not even sure you can smote in the fugue. Maybe they can only say, "I was too young to die!"

If you're like me and you like exploring places no matter what character you're on, you die plenty enough as it is. You don't need some code death to teach you any lessons or promote RP.

[Ceara]

Ok

I think this has turned into another seperate issue, the lack of rping death and taking death seriously. Selveem's post actually points out how serious it is to die. I think that perhaps the issue of people not rping death after the fact should be brought up in a new thread of it's own.

Secondly it is assumed that the person rping the fight and smote death won't rp it, well if they don't you simply code kill them. If they are rping to that point chances are they will follow through.

As for the stats being lowered and being affected by raise dead. I had forgotten that existed, it is something new to me. That could be done in a way simply by the person dying agreeing not to go training etc... for a few hours RT.

As long as both parties are in agreement, I don't see what is wrong with it. People die plenty enough to mobs and other pc's like me who don't wan't to smote it out.

Personally I hate smote fighting, people tend to think they are gods and it is a rare occassion when I've seen it done properly. Also I'm not entirely sure what my own character can do. I would rather let the mechanics do the math. However 9 times out of 10 if I'm in a pk situation, especially if it is 1 on 1 I will only stun the player and not kill them. So again they avoid death.

I really do not see the issue with this, yes we've died and it sucks and what I am hearing is more so that people want others to suffer as they have. However, the fact remains that they will suffer the same we're not talking about every death being rp'd and the pc not actually dying, we're talking about the rare occassion when two rp'ers actually smote out the entire battle.

Again I think people not rping being raised is another issue entirely and it is an issue. I think it should be started in a new thread. Personally I do tend to rp being weak etc... I see no reason why others shouldn't or can't unless you have to leave rl right away. In which case I warn the person raising me.

[Dalvyn]

If your character ICly does something and that "something" is coded, then it should be performed in-game.

If your character decides to show-off how rich he is by melting coins, a smote is not enough: he should actually drop the coins, start a fire and melt the coins.

If your character decides to cast a cone of cold on someone to frighten them, a smote is not enough: he should ask OOCly the other character to go to killmode spar (so he does not immediately auto-attack back) then proceed to cast the spell.

If a DM sets up a roleplay and, once concluded, has the quest-giver hand out rewards, he should craft up those rewards in-game and not simply have the mob smote that he hands out rewards.

If your character decides to kill someone else, the death should be performed in-game as well.

[Sairaven]

I agree with Dalvyn, for what my newbie opinion is worth.

While sitting around and waiting for someone to find your body is tough, it is a part of a duel. There are risks you take when you agree to fight, be it a monster or another PC.

If you are not willing to risk having to wait for help, then find another way out of the fight.

As an example (and yes, I know I was too low at the time for it to matter):

My party was confronted by a mage, who used an emote to 'shock' someone's Amulet of Communication (this can't be just a coincidence with the first post). Sairaven, fitting with his beliefs, stepped between the mage and the one with the amulet. He was ready to die to defend his friend, knowing full well that he probably couldn't do much of anything.

I was risking it all in this situation. Even though I was still in my 'newbie' hours, I was ready to risk it all, to the point of letting a death define the end of the new character. It is a risk you take, so take that risk!

I think that you can emote out a fight all you want, but if you are going to kill, then kill.

[Oghma]

Dalvyn sums up my thoughts as well. If you are going to do something that can be accomplished with code, then you best do it that way or rp the alternative. You should not rp being killed in a fight unless you are dead. You should not rp smote fighting as a real fight, rather as an interpretive dance. There is a lovely killmode spar that lets you accomplish a fight move then smote back and forth. If it is part of your rp to kill other players and not stun them, then kill them, just do it properly with full rp and within the pk rules. To be frank, I see it more beneficial to find an excuse to stun and rp the stun as opposed to killing for rp sake. Those that can't and only fight to kill other pc's are being lazy in my opinion. Remember it is just a game, it is not a real world, if you are afraid of pking then work to stun, don't cheapen the experience by pretending to kill.

[Raona]

While I agree with the most recent comments, I must also be missing something here in what Selveem is suggesting, because it doesn't make sense to me.

Are you proposing that one SMOTE out actually dying, that is, taking your final breath, so that only a holy figure could raise you, as opposed to SMOTEing out nearly dying, and being left for dead? With the latter, I don't think there is any issue - in fact, you should be able to use the code to leave you unconscious and bloodied (KILLMODE STUN). With the former, though, it would seem an IC necessity that someone other than yourself actually intervene on your behalf - and that's what the code would require, no? It doesn't make sense unless you invoke non-PC actors that you actually die, and then find yourself alive again without the intervention of a priest or deity. What am I missing?

[Velius]

I really like smote fighting, i don't think you can really kill someone using a smote though. The only way I'd see around this would be having a priest around when the person 'smote dies' Then the priest could heal up the other guy, RP asking to the gods let this man live, etc...

When someone dies they go to the Realm of the Dead, though I'm in favor of smote fighting, how are you going to RP going/comingbackfrom the Realm of the Dead? If you need a priest to RP raising the guy from the dead then why not just use the code?

I think smote fighting works greatly in RP situations, I myself have smote fought once and it was awesome and my character benefitted a lot more then if we ( myself and the other character ) would have just sparred and let the game do everything for us.

I just can't see how you can 'smote die'