Polymorph

[Dalvyn]

Quote all the books you want, the DM has the final say!

In this case, I would think that allowing people to mimick other people through polymorph opens a very festy can of worms.

It's one of those things where, for simplicity's sake, it's better to do what the code lets you do and not imagine that you can do more. The code does not let you look like someone else (you can only specify a race), so let's not try to do more.

Around a table, with a crafty DM who can adjudicate grey area rules, if it advances the plot and makes the game more fun, sure, you can try to mimick someone. But FK is not a tabletop game with DMs on hand to solve all the questions that are not answered by the code.

For example: Does someone with true sight recognize someone who is polymorphed? Or I can perfectly imagine the following convo:

- I know Hagrid so well that I should spot minor details that you missed when you polymorphed!
- Ah, but that's magic. I used a spell to make myself look like Hagrid.
- Perhaps, but you would not have everything right. The voice might be different, the way your hair is, ...
- The magic takes care of all that. There's no flaw in the morph!
- Alright then, let's switch to IC.

"Hey, Hagrid, what did I tell you this morning, do you remember?

<back to OOC>
- Hey, that's not fair. I have no way to know!
- Right. So, since you cannot answer correctly, my character is clever enough to know that you are not really Hagrid
- But you wouldn't have asked that stupid question in the first place if you didn't know I was polymorphed!

<and so on>

Polymorph in FK is supposed to let you take the form of an average creature of another race. It can turn you into a orc and let you join the orc fighters guild (yes, I know, there are plenty of way to do nasty things with polymorph like doing things that are restricted to another race, and you'd better think twice ... or even four times before doing them to see if you aren't going to end up on the imms' bad side if you do them - in doubt, ask!). Polymorph can let you turn into a powerful race so you can carry more; it can let you turn into a flying form so you can race across the wilderness; and so on.

It cannot let you assume someone else's form though.

-- That's just my opinion; there's been no imm concensus about it --

[Horace]

Why not?

Because you're making the alterations yourself.

You can't perfectly memorize what a person looks like, their bone structure, the scars you weren't able to see when you first touched them, the width of their neck, visible veins, texture of skin, depth and width of their eyes...it goes on and on forever. With a level 8 spell, it takes /months/ to make a replica...but you're suggesting with a level 4 spell that you can do so, also obtain that shape, and instantaneously...there is a reason why dopplegangers have a +4 level adjustment, and a reason why polymorph doesn't grant supernatural abilities. Polymorph is not like the dopplegangers change shape.

[Glim]

Quote all the books you want, the DM has the final say!

It's one of those things where, for simplicity's sake, it's better to do what the code lets you do and not imagine that you can do more. The code does not let you look like someone else (you can only specify a race), so let's not try to do more.

I knew one of the imms was gonna bring in the DM argument! GRRR! I have been known to argue with my DMs until they have to put their foot down.

Btw, Dalvyn, I have seen polymorph allow you to change your adjective as well as race, and recently. I know this to be true because two people who have used or seen polymorph have also confirmed this. Possibly they could also change their description to match the person. Would this be considered as doing what the code lets you do? This is not me debating or arguing, but truly asking if that would fall under the lines of your definition. I am currently under the impression that the code DOES let you do it, that is all.

Also, if true sight on FK is the equivalent to true seeing in 3.5 then yes, it does allow you to see the true form of someone polymorphed.

Your scenario could also be a similar one done with problems with greet and OOC information. Or sneaking and flying... or... well... tons of stuff!

...there is a reason why dopplegangers have a +4 level adjustment, and a reason why polymorph doesn't grant supernatural abilities. Polymorph is not like the dopplegangers change shape.

Change Shape does not confer supernatural abilities either. And no, polymorph is not like a doppleganger's change shape. The only differences are that the character keeps all the ability scores and special attacks of his natural form with change shape.

Edit: Also, why would you have to change everything? Perhaps you would only need to change your face and hands and body shape well enough and and cover the rest that is badly changed with clothes? Or perhaps they have a picture, painting, or the person to go off of?

Here is a scenario:
Let's say you have a human with the change shape special ability and with 0 ranks in disguise and has changed shape into Dalvyn. Also you have a wizard with 0 ranks in disguise that has polymorphed and changed shape into Dalvyn. Well, let's say they both roll a 10 on their disguise checks with a automatic +10 from each respective spell.

So now all spot checks have to beat a 20 to figure out if they both really are Dalvyn. What is the difference in the two people's forms? Honestly?

[Glim]

Off topic question: Why is this debate even in Rules Discussion? Wouldn't it be more appropriate in another category? *shrug* Doesn't matter, really. Im having too much fun.

[Lerytha]

I've always thought it more fun to have polymorph have a few limitations. Not code-wise, just through IC. I remember when Miriel used to use polymorph, her adjective would be the same as her elf-adjective. So if I was spying on someone as a spider, there'd be a "silver-white spider" listening on, or a "silver-white bird" flying about. And that was because I thought "hang on, she's only <skilllevel> at polymorph, I wouldn't be able to change everything, would I?"

What's my point? I think its fine to TRY to polymorph into another person. But are you a grandmaster polymorph? If so, I'd suggest that you are incredibly skilled at tweaking those ears, adjusting that hairline, slightly altering muscle tone, etc. And therefore, you can take someone's shape. If you aren't a grandmaster in polymorph, then I'd suggest that IC, you might want to make a few mistakes. So actually RP that your hair looks a little odd, or that the voice is a little higher than normal.

~Ol

[Selveem]

True, but in D&D there are no skill points pumped into the ability to cast spells. When you cast a spell, it's based on your caster level (sometimes arcane/divine/psionic-specific).

Things like polymorph, once you learn, you are (in MUD terms) GM at the spell!

[Arothian]

Off topic question: Why is this debate even in Rules Discussion? Wouldn't it be more appropriate in another category? *shrug* Doesn't matter, really. Im having too much fun.

Uhh. Because it's a discussion of rules?

[Horace]

Let's say you have a human with the change shape special ability and with 0 ranks in disguise and has changed shape into Dalvyn. Also you have a wizard with 0 ranks in disguise that has polymorphed and changed shape into Dalvyn. Well, let's say they both roll a 10 on their disguise checks with a automatic +10 from each respective spell.

So now all spot checks have to beat a 20 to figure out if they both really are Dalvyn. What is the difference in the two people's forms? Honestly?

Mechanically there is no difference. But the only reason that is the case is for balance issues. They couldn't right say "because it's a supernatural ability and perfect, that they get a +30 bonus" because that'd give the ability an unusual advantage.

The mechanics for this blows, say you try and impersonate Marty McFly...you have absolutely no ranks in disguise - and on a 10% chance when you run into Doc Brown you roll a 19 or 20. Doc Brown is a close friend and associate with Marty, so he gets a +8 to the ten he takes...he doesn't notice that you (whatever you look like as long as you're an adult male) are absurdly disguised as Marty McFly.

You can't just look at the mechanics. The mechanics are there for balance more than they are for what the spell/skill/ability actually does. That's where the role playing comes in...to justify Doc not noticing, the DM should probably come up with a reason as to why besides "the dice have spoken!".

So yes, you're right. Mechanically there is no difference in the bonus it gives to impersonate someone. But from the nature of the spell and ability, there is a big difference.

Me and my buddies came up with a legitimate way, mechanically, to do billions and billions of damage spread out over miles of area...thousands of damage per 5 foot radius for the area. 100% legal mechanically. But obviously, it was never meant to be able to do so. When my buddy brought it up at gencon, it was confirmed to be legal, and also confirmed we were patently retarded for coming up with it.

I understand mechanically it doesn't make sense, why one can do it and one can't, when mechanically they give the same bonuses...but sometimes the nature of the spell is as restrictive as the mechanics.

[Glim]

Mechanically there is no difference. But the only reason that is the case is for balance issues. They couldn't right say "because it's a supernatural ability and perfect, that they get a +30 bonus" because that'd give the ability an unusual advantage.

Why? You would think that if only one of them let you become JUST like the other person (change self) and the other one didnt (polymorph), then it would give a higher disguise bonus for the one that does.

If polymorph is giving a +10 bonus for only making you look sort of like the other person, then a +15 or +20 for change self making you look just like the other person would not be too overpowering. I mean, plenty of people have said that +10 is not a very big bonus. Didnt one person say it's sorta like a minor item?

That's where the role playing comes in...to justify Doc not noticing, the DM should probably come up with a reason as to why besides "the dice have spoken!".

YOU'RE EXACTLY RIGHT!

And do you know what sound and IC reason the DM might come up with?

Alright, you looked just like Marty McFly from the polymorph spell and then you did a very convincing job of acting like him with disguise. His buddy doesn't suspect a thing.

...but sometimes the nature of the spell is as restrictive as the mechanics.

The spell leaves for a very wide range of options and isn't restrictive at all. It is the DM or player or whoever's interpretation that is restrictive. Not the spell.

Feedback is always welcome,

[Horace]

You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.


Heavily suggests it not being perfect. The mechanics of it don't prove anything. +10 is just a nice number, for the few creatures that have change shape they also get giant bonuses to disguise. If what you're suggesting is true, it'd make Veil (which also gives +10, surprise surprise) an absolutely worthless spell, with no purpose...plus being 2 levels higher to cast. If you really want, I've been on good terms with wotc staff before, and can send in for their take. But I can promise you they're going to point to "average member of the new form's race". When they say +10 used to make a disguise in the alter self spell description, they're referring more to disguising yourself not as yourself or passing as another race.

I understand where you're coming from, but polymorph just doesn't work like that. "average member of the new form's race" is the only sentence that needs to exist for this debate - it specifically sets the parameters of the spell.


----

edited to add Veil excerpt

The subjects look, feel, and smell just like the creatures the spell makes them resemble. Affected creatures resume their normal appearances if slain. You must succeed on a Disguise check to duplicate the appearance of a specific individual. This spell gives you a +10 bonus on the check.

This is what you're describing polymorph can do...except this is 2 levels higher...and polymorph has tons of other applications...and veil only has this. Seriously dude, it just doesn't

[Glim]

See, though, now you are just going in circles.

When it says an average member of the race, that is merely saying that you cannot change things outside of that race's norm. Most people on FK are an average member of their race, with very few exceptions. If there was a character with some completely outrageous trait that no one in his race has had, then no, you can't duplicate that trait. But because the person you are trying to become IS an average member of the race, then that is perfectly fine.

Thank you for bringing up Veil, but that really only supports my point.

Now instead of two, here we have three spells/abilities that all give a +10 to disguise:

Polymorph
Veil
Change Self

My question still stands and is strengthened. Now, you are saying that two of them can make someone just like the race and give the same +10 to disguise, but the other cannot?

As for Veil being 2 levels higher, there is an easy explanation to that. It is because it can be cast on many people. You can change as many people as you want as long as all of them are within a 30 ft radius.

Baleful polymorph is one level higher than polymorph because it can be cast on one other person.

Thanks for your reply,

[Horace]

Change Shape (Su): A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature

Veil: You must succeed on a Disguise check to duplicate the appearance of a specific individual.

Alter Self (polymorph): You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race.


You obviously know the rules, book wise, to even get me to frickin care enough to point out something that every tabletop player i've ever played with has known for certain. I get the very real feeling you're just extending this to see if you can.

Polymorph is using alter self...that's the mechanics you're using. A level 2 spell can't make a perfect replica. Look at the depth Veil goes into explaining how perfect the match is, smell, feel, looks, going out of the way to point out numerous senses...specifically pointing out everything seemingly is exactly as the image you're taking. Then look at alter self's description: "you can change you're hair!".

Get real man, you've proved your point of rules relativity just by throwing strawmen up for this long. But they just don't do the same thing, they give the same disguise bonus, granted, but they're of a different nature. Wearing a banana suit can reasonably give a plus 10 bonus to disguise...it doesn't imply passing as a high priest because of it.

[Glim]

I think this is becoming a bit personal to you, Horace, so I am going to quit debating this after this post and I am going to merely post this:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040518a

You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form's race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.

To any casual viewer, you are a typical specimen of the kind of creature whose form you have assumed. If someone is paying close attention to you, the character can attempt a Spot check to note something odd about your appearance, as noted in the description of the Disguise skill. Use the +10 modifier on your Disguise check rather than the modifiers shown on the first table in the skill description. The Disguise check you make reflects how accurately you have reproduced your assumed form. If you use alter self to masquerade as a particular individual, anyone studying you might also get a Spot bonus as noted in the Disguise skill description.

Straight from wizards.com, Rules of the Game and written by co-designer of D&D 3rd edition and chief architect of Monster Manual, Skip Williams. There you go.

Have a good night

[Horace]

You can masquerade as elvis without looking exactly like him. That in no way suggests replica. How does that suggest replica?

Veil says duplicate the appearance. Change shape says assume the appearance of a specific individual. Then the best you can come up with is the text from Skip Williams in an off the cuff rules discussion that still doesn't suggest it being perfect...you're taking the words out of context. If the question is can you use polymorph to look more like someone - hell yes you can.

If you use polymorph to look like someone, you will look more like them than you do now...that's the disguise bonus. You have to understand that you can get disguise bonuses for any change in appearance...any change at all as long as it's toward your goal.

Change shape is perfect, because we all know what dopplegangers do. Veil is perfect because

You can make the subjects appear to be anything you wish. The subjects look, feel, and smell just like the creatures the spell makes them resemble

. Polymorph isn't perfect, because it does minor alterations that make you look an average member of the new form’s race. That would be a great start to a disguise...a plus 10 start.

It's not personal, I'm just exhausted trying to explain something to someone who already knows...but just refuses to admit the nature of the spell in favor of filling in information where the text doesn't specifically say you can't magically replicate someone's appearance.

[Glim]

Alright, I said I wasn't going to debate this anymore, but I also thought you couldn't argue with that. Also, not agreeing with YOUR view does not mean that you are right. Since you are willing to debate this further...

Polymorph isn't perfect, because it does minor alterations that make you look an average member of the new form’s race. That would be a great start to a disguise...a plus 10 start.

Really, your whole argument is based upon the one line:

You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race.

That is only there to further support the two lines before it:

You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race.

That, to me, and as I have said before but it appears you aren't listening, is only to say that you cannot suddenly become a moon elf that is 10 feet tall. Or a high elf with wings. Etc. This was to prevent people from saying, "Oh, I want to become an Ogre with blades for hands! It says I can change minor and significant details, so why not?"

But see... almost every character on FK is an average member of their race. They do not have traits or appearances that would fall outside the norm of their race. Some might have traits that are outside the norm, yes, so I don't think you would be able to duplicate those traits.

So, tell me this, if the person you are trying to duplicate IS an average member of your new form's race, then why can you not become them?

Also, and im giving you a chance to convince me here, if polymorph is not the spell that will allow you to change yourself into the exact person you want to, then what is?

[Horace]

So, tell me this, if the person you are trying to duplicate IS an average member of your new form's race, then why can you not become them?

Because becoming an average person of a race is different than becoming a specific person of the race. Even if a person is the pinnacle of "average" in regards to the race, you can't look exactly like them because they're a unique individual. Think of it like the restrictions on the polymorph spell, you get the racial bonuses of the creature...you can't get the physical bonuses of a specific creature. If you polymorph into a minotaur you get the minotaur template of +6 to str and +4 to con (hypothetically, I didnt look it up), you wouldn't be able to polymorph into Bloodaxe RangerEater who has physical attributes much higher than that...even if it's within your allowed hit die.

Also, and im giving you a chance to convince me here, if polymorph is not the spell that will allow you to change yourself into the exact person you want to, then what is?

A doppleganger's change isn't undetectable to magic, you can still see their natural form with true seeing

Veil is still just an illusion which allows many ways to see through it...including a simple "disbelief" check

The only way to really do it, at least without digging too hard into it, is to clone the target, then kill the target, then magic jar the target. This would cause a -2 constitution damage to the body because of forcing the spirit into the clone. You wouldn't retain any supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but you would maintain all physical attributes the target had (as opposed to a template)...but you would look exactly like the target, and much more difficult to detect with magic than a dopplegangers change and Veil.

[Glim]

So, tell me this, if the person you are trying to duplicate IS an average member of your new form's race, then why can you not become them?

Because becoming an average person of a race is different than becoming a specific person of the race.

See, this I think is merely a difference in the definition of the word average and how it pertains to this spell.

Think of it like the restrictions on the polymorph spell, you get the racial bonuses of the creature...you can't get the physical bonuses of a specific creature.

Now, all the visual effects from polymorph are the same as Alter Self. Alter Self does not do that.

Even if a person is the pinnacle of "average" in regards to the race, you can't look exactly like them because they're a unique individual.

Also, if you would, define what an average minotaur looks like and the differences in what Bloodaxe RagerEater looks like that would make you not able to look like him.

I don't remember anything saying anywhere that every specific person has traits that are outside the norms of that race, that you cannot duplicate.

Just because they are a specific person does not give them some magical protection against lookalikes +5.

A doppleganger's change isn't undetectable to magic, you can still see their natural form with true seeing

I asked for a spell, not a special ability.

Veil is still just an illusion which allows many ways to see through it...including a simple "disbelief" check

You cannot change yourself with Veil.

Also, im not asking for a spell that is undetectable by magic or disbelief. Merely a spell other than polymorph that will allow you to change yourself into the exact same appearance as another person.

The only way to really do it, at least without digging too hard into it, is to clone the target, then kill the target, then magic jar the target.

O.o

...What? And how would you do this?

[Arothian]

av·er·age /ˈævərɪdʒ, ˈævrɪdʒ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[av-er-ij, av-rij] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, adjective, verb, -aged, -ag·ing.
–noun
1. a quantity, rating, or the like that represents or approximates an arithmetic mean: Her golf average is in the 90s. My average in science has gone from B to C this semester.
2. a typical amount, rate, degree, etc.; norm.
3. Statistics. arithmetic mean.
4. Mathematics. a quantity intermediate to a set of quantities.
5. Commerce.
a. a charge paid by the master of a ship for such services as pilotage or towage.
b. an expense, partial loss, or damage to a ship or cargo.
c. the incidence of such an expense or loss to the owners or their insurers.
d. an equitable apportionment among all the interested parties of such an expense or loss. Compare general average, particular average.
–adjective
6. of or pertaining to an average; estimated by average; forming an average: The average rainfall there is 180 inches.
7. typical; common; ordinary: The average secretary couldn't handle such a workload. His grades were nothing special, only average.

[Arothian]

You cannot change yourself with Veil.

Uhh. Just for the record, I'd like to know what smoke you've been cracking. I'll quote Veil for you:

Illusion (Glamer)
Level: Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Targets: One or more creatures, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart

I can be within 30 feet of myself.

...What? And how would you do this?

Simulacrum would be easier.

[Raona]

What I take from this, frankly, is that with Polymorph you can make yourself into a creature with the same general physical characteristics as a target being. So if you want to polymorph into Raona, you can make yourself a human female with red hair and bright green eyes, 5'9", big muscles and a stern face, easily mistaken for the lass at a distance. You might make your voice a passable match, and even imbue a limp, if she had one. But you don't have nuanced control over muscle tone, age wrinkles, the timbre and inflection of voice, the speckling of her eyes - heck, you don't know most of those things, most likely, in any case. But even if you did, I don't think you have that fine a control. If your target had tatoos, I'd think them beyond the scope of this spell, to borrow a phrase from philosophy (which is what this debate is reminding me of...who wants to be Socrates, and who Plato?) Scars - maybe. Face to face, without some additional disguise work, you wouldn't pull it off...and even with a haircut, fake scars, good tattoo painting, and whatnot, you'd have a hard time getting the mannerisms right, even if you knew them well. It's beyond reason to expect code to account for all this. I think, from the start, the answer to whether you can polymorph into a specific person is...well...kinda...and you have to make a reasonable compromise between claiming skills you don't have, and enhancing RP. I think Glim and Horace have argued strongly on behalf of each of their points of view...and I'm of the firm opinion they are both right...and both wrong.