Newbie Friendly?

Alvirin · Post by **Alvirin** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:24 pm

I must say as a relatively new player (december 2006) that I was pretty much lost until a veteran player took me aside and taught me the basics.

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:24 pm

I am willing to start a forum for party forming. Threads in the forum would be required to include the level range of the desired party. For example:

Subject: L11 - L20 Howling Peaks

Then, in the body, the organizer can post the date/time and other details desired.

I am concerned though that announcing where you will be to the entire mud encourages others who would IC not be invited to possibly show up and ruin your fun. They might add to the fun, but just as easily not. Especially, when this kind of thing would not really be known by any outside of the intended IC adventuring group.

Another solution would be to post IC on the in-game message boards to form your groups, include an OOC time/date. Most players check those boards frequently and I think they are underused for this purpose.

Even as a new player years ago, I enjoyed the fact that life outside the walls is much harder than life protected in Waterdeep. That's why citizens live there! Another solution would be that we have more opportunities for players to do quests within those walls. Yes, other hometowns should be included, but most new PLAYERS will start in WD. For that to happen, we need players to build quests. If the coding side is beyond your current understanding, write out the steps of the quest and send it to the builders address. I am sure that those folks would happily code a well-written, step-by-step quest. And everyone wins.

Mariela · Post by **Mariela** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 4:26 pm

Now here's a question.....

And please move this where it would be appropriate..

I am REALLY kinda bummed for Emerys. I mean, it's bad enough when you die a half a dozen times, but from what I noticed from another post.... he's got more than just one character deceased. And since most of those characters are probably really really new..... that just... sucks!

Is there any way for us to use the Corpse Conservatory as "veteran' players and try to get an idea of anyone is logged on that is sitting around in the Lands of the Dead who want to return? Like... I dunno.. give us a tally of who is there so we can kinda try to pull them across?

ICly pulling a medium sort of trick so that way we can get those characters back into play through another option? I know Mariela at least would voulenteer now and again there to help adventurers... and there are a LOT of new new players it seems that die without really knowing anyone too well.

Or.... would it be concidered bad play to make it commonly known what priests one could call oocly that could raise you.. especially if they are the older priests.. and be able to tell them from the lands of the dead without having been greeted by them to ressurect you?

I know it would cut the God angle out... but.....
I just am really concerned that people are getting three, four.. six character stuck in the lands of the dead.. praying and hoping they can find enough people to get them raised, ect. Especially when most of the Veterans, had they known... they would go get them. Buuuuuuuuuuut. Vicious circle time that we don't know them so we can't do anything about, ect.

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:29 pm

Not sure how it would be done but here is an idea.

Each hometown has a mob (old witchy crone sounds good to me!) who has a shop set up with a crystal ball. For a fee, she can let you look into the realms of the dead and show you who is there at any given time.

Now, my biggest concern with this, as it has always been with mobs who can resurrect players, is that it diminishes the need for PC clerics and PC interaction.

Another idea, and I am not sure if it doesn't already do this, but allow the corpse conservatory mob to inform PCs as to which corpses are currently being held and, if possible, state whether or not that person is alive. Might be hard though if the person is logged off.

Oh, and to address one point brought up earlier. If a PC prays while dead and isn't raised it is not because an imm ignores you. The poster is correct, either there was no imm on, or the dead person logged off before an imm could get to you. Imm raises are not always instantaneous because we are often running rps or dealing with issues elsewhere when online. But we never ignore them.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:40 pm

Sorry to derail the thread further, but to follow up on Lathander's post.. I really think that it would be nice while a priest is communing with the dead they may hear whispers of other spirits speaking of the recently departed.. It would give an additional IC advantage to those who have and make use of the spell like they should.

Those who are under the effect of the 'Speak with the Dead' may then see (even people who haven't greeted them) in the 'who' list as < Ghost > or whatever the coded race is set as while dead.

Just my thoughts on the matter. Then they can have a wizard to begin hunting the bodies while the priest attempts communication with said ghost (offering terms of resurrection would also happen here - especially with those people who aren't known to the priest [i.e.: old priestess of Tempus used to require a weapon be 'sacrificed' in homage of Tempus for her helping them]).

Could add to more meet-and-greet scenarios.

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 5:50 pm

Lathander wrote:I am concerned though that announcing where you will be to the entire mud encourages others who would IC not be invited to possibly show up and ruin your fun. They might add to the fun, but just as easily not. Especially, when this kind of thing would not really be known by any outside of the intended IC adventuring group.

Do people really do this? I mean, sure, even _I_ joke about bringing my rogue into the Squire Training program, but I would never actually do that.

Accidental interruptions do occur. I think these may be far more common than intentional ones.

I would rather choose to trust my fellow "FKers" than believe someone would go out of their way like this. And, even if someone does seem to interrupt/undermine groups like this.. I'm certain they wouldn't enjoy IC repercussions that generally involve problem players who use OOC knowledge ICly.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:10 pm

I don't think that people who would go there willingly to ruin other people's experience would remain for long on FK. They would mostly quickly get punished and eventually banned.

But I can see this:

- I play an orc ... I feel like going to Howling Peaks to train and do a quest. I start making my way there.

- While en route (yes, that's French), you learn that a group of lowbies is heading there too.

- What are you going to do? Continue with your initial plan and risk meeting the goodies and see the situation degenerate, or see them accuse you of coming there to harrass them? Or change your mind because of this OOCly gained information?

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:34 pm

Back to the topic ... I actually think that there are two different problems here, and I have a hard time distinguishing between them.

The first problem is that many new players seem to desire to play this mud as a single-player game. They expect to be able to go through the wilderness and survive alone. We see many reports about people dying alone because this mob reacted poorly to them, or that mob jumped them ... but I can't remember any topic where a GROUP of (even low-level) characters would report that they were killed because of something similar.

Now, I don't mean to put the blame entirely on the new players and how they expect to be able to survive alone ... And I recognize that there might be a second problem.

The second problem would be how hard it is to find other players to adventure with. Is it because muds only attract players interested in safe roleplay (aka Dolls & Daisies, aka spending all your time chatting on the Market Square) and the more adventurous players are spending their time on graphical games? Would a mud-wide channel to set up groups help?

One reaction I have though - sorry to single you out Selveem - is that, while I greatly appreciate what you are trying to do to help new players and make them feel welcome, I think it would be better if those efforts were done on the forum rather than through PMs/IMs. For one thing, that would show other players that we do care about grouping and that they too should really avoid wandering alone; and it would also other players to "join in". So, I would suggest to rather use posts to set up expeditions... those would fit nicely in the EVENTS forum, actually!

Selveem · Post by **Selveem** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 7:22 pm

Dalvyn wrote:The first problem is that many new players seem to desire to play this mud as a single-player game. They expect to be able to go through the wilderness and survive alone. We see many reports about people dying alone because this mob reacted poorly to them, or that mob jumped them ... but I can't remember any topic where a GROUP of (even low-level) characters would report that they were killed because of something similar.

I completely disagree with you here, Dalvyn. There are plenty of people who still enjoy the thrill of doing something difficult even in text-based games. If this were the case, why would so many PVP MUDs still be thriving? If you look at many other of the "big" MUDs, they don't say to their hundreds of players, "You have to group up, or you won't be able to see the 'good stuff.'" The focus content on challenges for both types of gamers. While I recognize FK is a community and I personally speak to a large amoung of people in game as well as out of game, there are plenty of players who keep to themselves outside of the game. To them, knowing too much outside of the game about other players ruins it for them. I don't fault them for that. It's just a playing style.

I think FK does a great job at rewarding both types of players for choosing this MUD as their source for entertainment. I don't wish to see that changed.

Dalvyn wrote:The second problem would be how hard it is to find other players to adventure with. Is it because muds only attract players interested in safe roleplay (aka Dolls & Daisies, aka spending all your time chatting on the Market Square) and the more adventurous players are spending their time on graphical games? Would a mud-wide channel to set up groups help?

Please, God, no. As much as I feel this is a problem with FK for _my_ enjoyment, there are plenty of people who are perfectly content with just sitting around Market Square all day. There's nothing wrong with that. I know one player who used to log on just to roleplay with his Griffon. Nothing wrong with that either. I just think that a lot of players are very timid to explore a majority of the content because they are too afraid of dying, loss of experience, loss of equipment, downtime while waiting to be resurrected, downtime of waiting for said resurrection sickness to wear off.

While I appreciate that we are 'trying to emphasize that death is a big thing in this world,' I think it is also only fair that we be tolerant that some playing styles are different - maybe some people have a hard time imagining how to react when recovering composure from death. Should everyone react the same? (Boring!) I know most people rush to throw on their equipment when resurrected. Personally, I do the same (though I try not to spam everything out like 'wear all'). I consider it a glitch that would ICly make my characters believe that every priest is a pervert who wanted to undress me completely and used the 'perform a resurrection/raise dead ritual' as an excuse.

Dalvyn wrote:One reaction I have though - sorry to single you out Selveem - is that, while I greatly appreciate what you are trying to do to help new players and make them feel welcome, I think it would be better if those efforts were done on the forum rather than through PMs/IMs. For one thing, that would show other players that we do care about grouping and that they too should really avoid wandering alone; and it would also other players to "join in". So, I would suggest to rather use posts to set up expeditions... those would fit nicely in the EVENTS forum, actually!

I don't mind at all. To be honest, I love to hear constructive input. But, also keep in mind that people don't like to be labeled. I personally would probably would be active in such a forum post, but these are times when 'twink,' 'munchkin,' and other derogatory terms are still slung at other players who enjoy the higher-powered areas of the game. I think that until that issue is resolved and respect is more prevalent I fear that many players may shrink from involving themselves in that particular directory of the forums.

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:58 am

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I know it may come across as harsh, but it is my personal opinion. If a player cannot bring him/herself to post their thoughts then they have no right to complain. As an imm I have been called every name in just about every book but accept it as part of the gig. I've proposed ideas that have panned out and ones that have been shot down in very direct ways, yet still I offer my opinion.

PMs and IMs are not the way to go about expressing a given individual's opinion IF the desired outcome is one of production. Sure, if you want to vent or complain about the establishment just for the sake of doing it, those ways are fine I suppose. But the forums are not a place for opinion proxies by anyone. Post what you think in a logical manner and express your opinions respectfully and those thoughts will ALWAYS be considered.

I can't see how posting to coordinate a gathering of adventurers to rp and play together in the Events forum can be seen as twinkish or bad in any way other than the possible one I mentioned. The previous attempts by players to gather groups or plan rps has worked out well the vast majority of the times. In fact, very often, when there has been a player-run event posted and I (or other imms) have been on at the time, we tend to look in on the rp and help whenever and however possible.

Kirkus · Post by **Kirkus** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:04 am

I am gonna disagree with you here Selveem. I don't think we reward 'both types of players'. I guess you are meaning rp'ers and hack and slashers...

I think the problem is we have eliminated parts of the game that allow for those that want something other than sitting in Market Square talking about the glory days of their adventuring years. Do not mistake me, I believe the most important thing we do is rp, pc to pc, player to imm, mano i mano or with many involved. That is the life blood of this mud, rp. But to me that means furthering the cause of a group or religion or grouping up and doing something, anything.

I think if you want to play alone, do the whole one-player thing, thats cool. There are times when I used to like to jump on just for that sort of thing. But I also think that the rewards for that sort of play should be miniscule. True rewareds should come through larger rps and group adventure.

But we have made it darn near suicidal to go out alone. Yeah I think there should be areas that are like that, but there should be lands and areas as well where you can go out and break in a new character. It no longer seems that we have that sort of graduated difficulty of areas. Its either the newbie temple or the anywhere else.

Rhytania · Post by **Rhytania** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:14 pm

The event section does help coordinating the bigger RP's and such but in the end it is kinda tedious and not everyone checks the boards all the time. What I propose for the smaller RPs is a note board system that is used specifically for this purpose that people can leave temporary posts for smaller RPs in the hopes of finding a group. ICly this could be an odd jobs note board. The format would be in the smae as a post but it would live on the board only as long as the PC is online. Once he logs off the note would 'Fall of in the wind'. It will help give people a name of the expedition leader, where they will be traveling, and a comment section where the originator can specify what he is looking for 'Im looking for 2 more people that can handle a weapon to help me and my priest friend take care of some goblins, message me or look for me in the Market Sqaure'. This can also be used as a help wanted section for small jobs where people who are looking for someone to do some menial tasks can post to give the lowbie players some way to earn cash, 'Im paying 5 gold for a pack of 50 feathers! Message me if you want the job!' If placed near the current note boards it will insure that the word can get to as many people as possible and will most definitely nurture the grouping situation across the board. I know as an older higher level player I wouldnt mind scanning that board and helping people out from time to time.

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:49 pm

A couple of points here:

I really like Rhytania's suggestion of using an in-game noteboard to recruit for adventures, advertise selling items and more. I don't really think there needs to be a separate noteboard though, I think the one that exists could be used for these things.

If the newspaper idea being discussed in the advertising thread sees fruition (?sp) that would be another great avenue to drum up groups. Pay a silver or two and get your call for adventurers published.

As for the game being suicidal for soloists, I would agree only so far as we are talking about low level soloists. Mid level and above should face little difficulty getting from place to place. Once at the place though, depending on which area it is, I think they SHOULD be hard. Admittedly, it is a difficult fence on which to sit. We want people to have fun and be able to solo if they choose that route, but we want very much to encourage grouping. I think that making things easier for people to solo is counterproductive to grouping. But I recognize that a balance is needed. Perhaps what we are hearing here is that the balance has shifted too far in one direction. One thing that might make life easier if the ability to travel from city to city were made easier. I personally think that roads should be very easy and not dangerous to travel, but that wilderness areas should be even more dangerous than they are now. More quests that take place within city walls (varying cities) and easier access from city to city might be a way to go. Getting the carriage system up and running and allowing more ports to be connected to the boat system might help as well.

Mariela · Post by **Mariela** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:24 pm

IF we are to use the noteboards that already exist in game...

We need to clean off all those really old notes. There are still notes on the post that are from characters that haven't logged in Years, litterally. And in fact, there are notes on there involving RP's that have been long taken care of.

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:47 pm

I'll look again, but I went through the noteboard in WD and took down the really old posts. The ones I left remain because I thought they might still have some rp value. I'll go through them again and be more discriminatory on what gets to stay.

One thing to remember though, it doesn't have to all fall to imms. Players who post notes should be responsible enough to take them down when they are no longer needed.

Meekir · Post by **Meekir** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:45 pm

since we're called on to voice our opinions.

For me, the harsh death system in this game is one of the biggest deterrents to play. I would really like to see it changed so that recovering from death is more forgiving (although better results from PC raise is great for encouraging roleplay). This has been true in my experience, and from the few people I've invited to play: death is just plain frustrating, especially when you're learning.

I like roleplaying. that's why I come back. but there's a mechanical component to the game. that involves fighting things and training, and exploring to find new things to fight and train. that can't always be done in the ideal situation, of a tabletop-like party - the reality is that the player base is too limited to fill every hour with every appropriate kind of character to make groups. this is even more difficult for new players, who haven't made friends or who haven't learned the game yet.

I don't like sitting out of game for hours, or months, because grouping is limited and death is so difficult. if I misunderstand this, I'm afraid that many new people have similar frustrations. please don't punish players for learning and exploring.

although for reasons mentioned above, I don't think you can ever totally eliminate inexperienced "soloing", I applaud positive efforts to assist new people and promote groups and roleplaying. (I don't care how contrived it is - I'm here to group and roleplay!) I'm just against permenent punishments in the game world.

Kirkus · Post by **Kirkus** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:56 pm

I think Lathander, you hit the nail on the head with what I meant. We swung to the other end of the spectrum. I agree the roads should be safe, but the few bandits I do see are not that many, but for me they aren't a problem so how easy were you thinking to make them?

I agree with you to a point about the wilderness, so let me explain how I see it. Take Waterdeep, our typical most basic/easy starting city. The area of wilderness around the city should be fairly taim. That way someone around the 10 to 15 level should be able to go out and adventure. The newbies should have an ammount of wilderness where they can feel somewhat secure in venturing about. This would inclue the Howling Peaks, which used to be a good area for low levels to go. But the peaks have gotten too hard for this, I remember Kirkus getting throughly manhandled there a few years back. I don't suggest we ease up the area but what about expanding it. With its relative location to Waterdeep it can be a popular area. If we rearrange the upper levels to be geard for the lowerlevels and maintain a deeper kobold base for experienced groups.

This relative safety zone would also include Ardeep... except I have no idea whats going on there... but this would allow low level ranger prospects a place to meed higher level rangers. Also there would be the school of magic except once again I know nothing of the place and if it works and is in use. But basically an area where low level characters can get some adventure on and advance toward higher levels.

Out side this zone should be a ring of medium difficulty wilderness areas. This would service the characters of middling levels obviously but would need some places where groups can explore and some for single players.
This is where I see us lacking right now. We don't have enough places for middling characters to adventure, alone or with a group.

Finally, as before we need some more areas where only a daring few would survive even the hike in, and only a group would dare go further.

Dalvyn · Post by **Dalvyn** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:14 pm

Can't a group (and by "group", I mean 2 or more, not necessarily 5+) of low level characters (around 10-12) not survive in the upper reaches of Undermountain? Or in Howling Peaks?

That aside, I think perhaps one of the main problem is that new players are not really guided in their first steps. As newcomers to a game, they tend to want to explore things on their own, to experience things on their own, and that always lead to their death.

Now, I don't believe that adding areas that level 6-10 players can solo will help much, because they would have to somehow know of those areas in the first place anyway, and there's still that chance that they will get fed up with those areas and venture out again ... onto their deaths. Besides, I don't believe that it's a great help for them if we just add areas they can solo. I would think that the best way to help them is to welcome them in the FK community, incite them to meet other people, get to know friends who can get their corpses and help them if/when they die, and so on. It's first and foremost a social game, no matter what you think.

I see this as a problem that feeds itself: new players experience things on their own, do not dare/want ask others for help and guidance, die, die again, then get frustrated. And by continuing to venture on their own, they never really get the opportunity to be told that grouping and knowing people is perhaps the most important thing on FK.

What I would suggest is this: write a pdf "newbie guide" with nice colours, screenshots, maps and mention it several times in the character creation process. Put some basic help about how to play the game in there, though not too much (because we want players to use the help files: the help files are kept up to date, and we want players to have the reflex to type "help whatever" when they have a problem). Add in a section describing "Your first steps on FK" that would outline the game, give hints about where to go and adventure when you are low level, and that would spell out clearly the message that you need to meet other people to survive.

A pdf guide would be, I think, a good addition to the game because (a) even if you are shy/do not dare ask other players, you can still download the pdf and read it; and (b) if it is well formatted, you might feel like reading it [perhaps more than pure-text help files]; and (c) it is a good way to present all the things that a newbie needs to know [while help files are classified according to topics, not really according to who should read them].

Balek · Post by **Balek** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:46 pm

One thing that might help new players avoid some of the problems with death would be to extend the automatic respawn (currently for everyone level 10 and under) to level 15 or 20 if you have only one character in your account and less than X hours (20 hours? 50?) It's fairly common to see new players die at level 11 or 12 while still knowing very little about the game.

Lathander · Post by **Lathander** » Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:38 pm

I am willing to sponsor putting together an FK .pdf "newbie booklet." I can put together a starting outline of topics (chapters) that can be finalized through discussion. Each chapter/topic can then be assigned to volunteer individuals to put together. I will put them all together into the final document.

Before I set up a thread to facilitate this endeavor, I want to be sure there are enough people willing to accept chapter/topic assignments. Anyone with the desire and dedication to fill these roles, please send an e-mail to applications with the subject line PDF ASSISTANT. I'll leave this invitation open for a week and then start working with the volunteers.

Please do not feel obligated to contribute to this project. I really would like to limit it to only those who have the time, desire and dedication to get it done.