Magicy Skills/Trades

[Lerytha]

As an aside, I believe brewing is the only trade that can actually hurt a character and their equipment? If it fails, it can explode, damaging every single thing you're wearing.

Brewing is not an easy skill. It also devours components like crazy. I would actually envisage little problem in selling potions to mobs. Each brewing effort uses a component three times. If its a bulls strength potion, be prepared to have tonnes of manure on you. If its invis potions, then the potion can often work out as fairly expensive.

Scribing also is not an easy skill, largely due to the high cost of scribing a spell.

I do not believe that in any other trade, a person has to pay potentially a lot-lot of money just to scribe one spell. Alright, armourcrafting needs raw materials which can cost a lot, but that is largely a one-off investment. Scribing and brewing takes your money, swallows it, and often leaves you without the scroll and potion you wanted.

That, incidentally, is why the cost of scrolls and potions is often so high. Some fair wizards/priests charge cheaply for those potions/scrolls that don't use components. Few wizards/priests would knowingly take a thirty-platinum hit, which is what some scrolls cost.

PLEASE NOTE: this isn't intended as a moan. I am merely trying to explain that this trade is not the easy, money-spinning trade people think it is. As long as that is taken into account, the discussion can be valuable and correct in its deductions.



~Ol

[Selveem]

As an aside, I believe brewing is the only trade that can actually hurt a character and their equipment? If it fails, it can explode, damaging every single thing you're wearing.

Actually, even scribing does this. I've heard that it can actually kill you, too (not a verified 'rumor'). I have, however, in my experience seen a simple scroll I was scribing blow up and 'hit' my bag - my bag was in perfect condition and afterwards I had components aaaaall laid out in the room, no bag, and nothing extra to shove them all into.

[Adabelle]

It seems to me that many mechanics have changes since the first try at potions and scrolls. Is it maybe time to seriously revisit the subject?

[Oghma]

I'd be interested in failed scribing blinding the writer and leaving his things and body intact or at least making his hands numb.

And for failed brewers still experiencing acid damage, just not damaging all their items in the process, I know a few characters that use to get around this by brewing in their underpants but if that is the way to get around the clothing and item damage it does not seem practical or realistic. I'm all for physical bodily damage still though.

[Kelemvor]

I am merely trying to explain that this trade is not the easy, money-spinning trade people think it is.

The practise of brewing up a three-way potion of componentless spells and then selling it for a very high mark-up price to NPC traders was a key factor in removing some of the storekeeps' 'buy potions' flag.

I agree that some scrolls can be extremely costly to create and their resulting value should be reflected, but this really only applies in player to player interactions.

After all, no player is going to create time and component expensive scrolls and potions for sale to NPCs when they can make the same money more quickly, safely and cheaply without.

[Dalvyn]

I, for one, actually do not like the explosion and harm things, for the following reasons.

1) What do they add to the game, except grievance? Having a potion explode in your face and items degrade or desintegrate is not challenging and not fun.

2) This incite people to brew/scribe naked. That's the logical reaction: if when brewing, you risk seeing the potion explode and damage everything that you are wearing, then you are going to undress before brewing. That's not challenging, that is just time-consuming and boring.

I would rather have, for example, the paper/potion and the components junk on failure. That's sufficiently frustrating. I could also see some temporary after-effects (stunned by the magic backslash for a while, slowed for a while, or something similar).

[Hviti]

Just a quick FYI Hviti, not only warriors can learn to make weapons. I know a wizard or two who can make weapons. And even more priests.

Ok, but even the wizards who can make weapons can sell them. Wizards and priests can't sell potions. And imo if armor/weaponsmithing can sell to many merchants for much coin, then brewing should be able to at least sell to fewer merchants for less coin (as set out in my last post).

I, for one, actually do not like the explosion and harm things, for the following reasons.

1) What do they add to the game, except grievance? Having a potion explode in your face and items degrade or desintegrate is not challenging and not fun.

2) This incite people to brew/scribe naked. That's the logical reaction: if when brewing, you risk seeing the potion explode and damage everything that you are wearing, then you are going to undress before brewing. That's not challenging, that is just time-consuming and boring.

I completely agree with the idea of removing the explosion and harm effects; having to remove any unique or nonrepairable items before any brewing is time consuming and irksome.

I would rather have, for example, the paper/potion and the components junk on failure. That's sufficiently frustrating. I could also see some temporary after-effects (stunned by the magic backslash for a while, slowed for a while, or something similar)

I would prefer that the potion bottle not junk of failure because that would discourage even more the use of unique, more expensive flasks, which add a nice flavor to brewed items. Junking the components would increase costs, but I guess it would be a viable option. I'd prefer junking components over a longer "stun"/forced inactivity period, since each brew already takes a certain amount of time whether successful or not.

Dalvyn, does the rationale I presented in the armor/weaponsmight vs. brewing make sense? Would PC-merchant selling of potions, if introduced with the small number of merchants with lower buying prices be reasonable and a possibility?

[Hviti]

The practise of brewing up a three-way potion of componentless spells and then selling it for a very high mark-up price to NPC traders was a key factor in removing some of the storekeeps' 'buy potions' flag.

Then why aren't the 'buy weapons' flags removed? Weapons can be sold to many times more NPCs than potions once could and they can be sold at high prices as well.

If it's the matter of componentless spells, then could potions of spells that need components be sellable?

Alternatively, could the material which the weapon is made of factor into the price? I could see PCs buying steel, titanium, gold, or platinum weapons...but not so much lead or tin ones. Why should NPCs offer the same price for all those kinds?

[Adabelle]

I see I lot of great ideas to balance potions and scrolls! I hope we can come up with a plan to make the skills to brew and scribe more accessible to us all.

I do want to mention that if ALL of the suggestions are implemented we will send scrolls and potions penduluming to the opposite direction. Becoming so costly and so hard to unload that they make NO money at all and simply cost the casters platinum hand over fist.

[Nysan]

The explosive failure damage threat of brew/scribe always bothered me. I do not recall my dwarf burning himself when he fails to smelt something or smashing his hand when he fails to smith something. All trades should have damage threats or none should.

Component costs of some spells are equal or greater than the cost of materials for smithing. No component spells in pots/scrolls = daggers/arrowheads in risk/reward in my opinion and 3 spell or high component cost pots/scrolls = platemail.

Still, I fear for a return of the 'gold rush' age if brew/scribe became mainstream again and no restrictions were placed on NPC sales. Smithing is sort of different because even though it is widely accessable, folks are not exactly flooding the NPC market with their goods. Not sure why the two selling habbits were so different, but they were. *shrug*

Limiting the number of potions usable at any given time and possibly add a time delay between scroll usage so you cannot spam use scrolls would do wonders to limit solo usage as well as keep memorized spell lists as the focus of our spell using crowd.

[Glim]

I could also see some temporary after-effects (stunned by the magic backslash for a while, slowed for a while, or something similar).

I kinda like this idea. I would much rather see some random bad effect happen on me than having a potion damage equipment. Also, it can even damage equipment that is impossible to repair. Some magical items and even holy symbols I have seen damaged.

But also, guys. I have brewed alot, and I honestly don't think I have ever seen a potion blow up except when I already have three spells and I make a mistake and forget and accidentally try and brew a fourth spell into the potion.

Another point I have always been curious about. Why are scribe and brew listen as skills and not as trades? Not a big issue, but just a minor thing that irks me.

[Nysan]

Another point I have always been curious about. Why are scribe and brew listen as skills and not as trades? Not a big issue, but just a minor thing that irks me.

Also wondered about that, as well as the staff/wand making skills I see on my wizard's list.

[Dalvyn]

Re: making money by selling weapons/armor

For what it's worth, I agree with you, Hviti, that the weapon thing is also completely out of balance. It yields great monetary rewards for an activity that I do not think should be encouraged to that extent (that activity being mining, smelting, crafting, selling = solo activities that do not benefit more than one player).

Re: stunning

I certainly didn't mean that, on a failure, the wizard would be stuck unable to speak. Being "frozen" is no fun at all.

What I meant is, for example, being unable to cast, memorize, meditate, and "regenerate" spells for a few minutes. That would be, imo, a good depiction of the magical backlash: in essence, not being able to work magic for a short while.

[Kregor]

We could charge exp for successful potion/scroll creation, aka D20?

Of course... that's putting more tax on the experience points that are already being used as currency for more things than they have to in D20... have to period, IMO.

[Glim]

We could charge exp for successful potion/scroll creation, aka D20?

Of course... that's putting more tax on the experience points that are already being used as currency for more things than they have to in D20... have to period, IMO.

Yeah, I don't really think that would be a good idea, mainly because of the reason you spoke of.

[Kelemvor]

Then why aren't the 'buy weapons' flags removed? Weapons can be sold to many times more NPCs than potions once could and they can be sold at high prices as well.

A good point, but one with far wider consequences than the specific issue with potions.

Remove Buy Weapons and Buy Armour flags and no player could earn coin by selling loot from mobs, not so much as a rusty dagger or a wooden shield.

Now, because the failure rate is usually much less (I think you meant more there) than that when starting from inept and the lag could be more, it could take 30-45 minutes to make those 10 potions. And they would also need to stop and meditate somewhere in there to regain spells because no one has 135 slots.

Just a couple of points here...

Failed brews don't cause lag as far as I am aware.
Slots recharge over time without meditation and whilst brewing for 30 minutes you would almost certainly recharge the slots you were using up in the brewing.

I agree with earlier comments that in many respects, weapon and armour smithing is no different from potion brewing when it comes to the finished product demolishing the economy.

The only difference would be in the amount of time and effort wasted on improving mining smelting and smithing skills in order to achieve the same result as selling a 3 spell potion.

When all is said and done, if players didn't feel compelled to rack up enormous amounts of coin the economy busting would be much less evident.

We've tried to influence this by reducing dwelling costs, which has always been the most often quoted reason for why someone is farming coin. Unfortunately, there are still those who think it is the only way to go.

[Sairaven]

We've tried to influence this by reducing dwelling costs, which has always been the most often quoted reason for why someone is farming coin. Unfortunately, there are still those who think it is the only way to go.

To play Devil's Advocate, armor repair costs are astronomical. Just to repair one level of damage to my armor costs me nearly all my platinum.

So to continue hunting (which I love to do), I end up spending everything I've made over the course of the previous hunt. I think I'm just barely making a profit these days.

Not complaining, just stating why some of us might hoard coins as if we had draconic blood. I do it in case I need to repair and didn't make a good profit in the previous few hunts.

[Dalvyn]

We're working on a solution for that repair cost problem. Hopefully, you should see the results in-game within the next week or so (depending on how quickly the modification is brought in-game).

[Sairaven]

Oh, that's cool! I had no idea! Again, I would like to point out I wasn't complaining about them. I figured that warriors needed a money sink like casters had (components).

[Selveem]

Going off of what Saraiven said:

The ridiculous costs of adventuring compared to the gains are something that are often underplayed.

For instance: my wizard when I remembered I had him, had over 100 platinum. I joined an adventuring party to go down into Old School of Wonder (not that I needed anything, but it's fun!). Having been away from the game for so long, I had forgotten that AoEs also strike friendlies in the room who aren't grouped with you. I attacked a ghost, got pwned by multiple spells and the like. In the end, some of my party members died. I was the only one around to foot the bill. That bill took all of my platinum.

Also, yes, the repair costs are crazy. A couple of my warriors run broke by that alone. You get some really nice, expensive armor that matches how your character would dress himself and charge out on your level 40+ warrior to attack Goblins in Howling Peaks only to find the first couple of Goblins managed to damage it once.. very expensive platemail indeed. It's more cost effective to charge in naked and just take the minor scrapes/bruises!